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The Running Thread - 2019

ATTQOTD fun run: I find fun/celebration in running all races but each has its own goal: PR, tourism, « coaching » DD, life experience.

If the question is how many races do you push your pace (or DD is pushing hers) real hard, I’d say about 3/4. The others were more relaxed either because they were part of a multi-race challenge or a new distance or because of injuries.

I ran only one so called « fun-run » as in one « untimmed event » and it felt more like a party than a race, meh.
 
I am about to go run 11 miles in the cold. Brrrrr!

Not running related but....
Here’s a question for everyone: I have a work conference this week in Orlando - it’s at near Universal but not one of the hotels that offers Express Passes. I arrive at MCO at about 12:30 pm and don’t have any conference obligations until the next morning. How should I spend my time? (This is a solo trip.)

So far am I considering:
1) go to Universal (which closes at 7 pm that night) 2) uber to Disney and do some resort hopping on the monorail or 3) buy a park ticket to one of the WDW parks and do a quick commando visit.

WWYD?


I would do resort hopping. It wouldn't be worth a full day ticket price by the time you got there IMO.

A late start to the thread today! Getting back to real life is not a fun adjustment after Disney! QOTD: How often do you run races just for fun?

ATTQOTD: I've rarely done it, but my most recent races have been more about fun than time. I would say around 10% of my races are for fun, but may look into increasing that number.

After dealing with injury and not being able to run so much for the last two years I have a different outlook. Even my races I and shooting for a good time are fun now. I stood at the start line for my 1/2 last fall just appreciating that I was there and I got so excited for the gun, that race was fund even though it got hard at the end.
 


I guess we wouldn't be runners if we didn't find fun in the process that can be tough at times.

I guess runner is synonymous with masochist. Completely understand though, now that I've done a marathon, the thoughts are creeping in about how much better can I do it, and how to I need to change up the training
 
QOTD: Yesterday afternoon while driving home I started to ponder how each of us get to what we consider a comfortable pace for running. My thought is what makes a 8 minute pace easy for one person while 10 minute pace for someone else. I guess the question is how did you determine what your starting comfortable pace is? Also, do you think it would be possible if when you started to say I want "x" pace to be what my normal runs are at? For example lets say 9 min/mi is where you are today and is comfortable, do you think if you started with a 7:30 min/mi and did not know any better that, that pace would be your normal? I realize there are a lot of factors from person to person on this question but I was curious what everyone thought?

ATTQOTD: Determining my comfortable pace when I first started running was by determining what pace I needed to run to run a 5k less than 25 minutes. I set that as the bar and kept practicing until I got there. Over time my easy pace has gone up or down depending on my activity level. I just thought, what if I said run at 8 min/mi pace for as long as I could and keep repeating that until became normal for me would work or if it isn't just that simple... or maybe it is.

*This is probably a poorly worded question, sorry if its confusing.
 
ATTQOTD (yesterday)- I will do a fun run or two each year with my lovely wife and family. The remaining races are either training runs or an all out effort. Still working on the fun part for those.
 


ATTQOTD: my comfortable pace was determined by me finding the pace I could maintain without feeling like I was dying. That said, many of you probably can walk faster than I can run.
The only time I set a pace goal was when I started to toy with the idea of runDisney races. I wanted to be able to finish (which goes back to the medal debate, but if I don't finish I can't keep a medal, nor should I get one imo). So that's where I started this time around. In college, I had much loftier pace targets.
 
QOTD: Yesterday afternoon while driving home I started to ponder how each of us get to what we consider a comfortable pace for running. My thought is what makes a 8 minute pace easy for one person while 10 minute pace for someone else. I guess the question is how did you determine what your starting comfortable pace is? Also, do you think it would be possible if when you started to say I want "x" pace to be what my normal runs are at? For example lets say 9 min/mi is where you are today and is comfortable, do you think if you started with a 7:30 min/mi and did not know any better that, that pace would be your normal? I realize there are a lot of factors from person to person on this question but I was curious what everyone thought?
It likely has to do with your personal fitness level. As someone who has been in sports my entire life when I first started running I treated it as a jog. I would sprint for several different things in football and obviously for distance running I can’t maintain that speed. Pace is definitely something that depends on the person and what they are comfortable with.
 
I think pace is relative to what you started at when you just went out and became a runner. So, yes if you started at 7:30 you wouldn't know any different that would be comfortable to you, just like 10:00 would be or 15:00. Then it changes as you become more fit & efficient. Comfortable to me is when I don't even look at pace, it's whatever feels effortless. Some people may have faster paces in them but have never broken out of that comfort zone.
 
ATTQOTD: I think comfortable pacing is determined entirely by your fitness level. That's why so many running plans advise a starting point of an easy pace where you can comfortably carry on a conversation in full sentences. It also gives a method to put a number to your easy pace when starting out. Go out and run using those parameters and see what pace falls out of it. Try to run significantly faster than that and you may well be able to, but it's not really a comfortable pace. As you get fitter, the pace at which you can meet that criteria will get faster and faster. As that comfort pace gets faster, so do the associated faster paces like race pace or tempo.
 
ATTQOTD: my comfortable pace was determined by me finding the pace I could maintain without feeling like I was dying. That said, many of you probably can walk faster than I can run.
The only time I set a pace goal was when I started to toy with the idea of runDisney races. I wanted to be able to finish (which goes back to the medal debate, but if I don't finish I can't keep a medal, nor should I get one imo). So that's where I started this time around. In college, I had much loftier pace targets.

Ditto
 
ATTQOTD:
I will say this is why I hated running when I attempted to start a few times. I would go out and run (too fast), and would have to stop and walk after 20 yards or so. I knew nothing of pacing. (I played sports in jr. high and early high school, but never really enjoyed running on its own, just if it was a part of another sport.) I used a couch to 5k app, and did the whole run/walk thing with it, but when it started to increase the run portion, I still struggled. I did a 5k and inserted some walk breaks to get me through it. I had never heard of an official training/running technique of run/walk at that point. After that 5k I found an app that had training plans that I decided to use as a bridge before I started training with a local running store/program. This app had me put in a recent race time, and then it gave me paces. It would tell me to slow down (or speed up). This app was my ‘Ah-Ha’ moment. I learned that I had been trying to run too fast for where I was in my running journey. Once I learned to slow down (where I could run and talk at the same time), I started to enjoy running. Now I have run 16 marathons!

To me a comfortable easy pace is one where I can talk in sentences (not just one word at a time) without becoming out of breath.
 
QOTD: Yesterday afternoon while driving home I started to ponder how each of us get to what we consider a comfortable pace for running. My thought is what makes a 8 minute pace easy for one person while 10 minute pace for someone else. I guess the question is how did you determine what your starting comfortable pace is? Also, do you think it would be possible if when you started to say I want "x" pace to be what my normal runs are at? For example lets say 9 min/mi is where you are today and is comfortable, do you think if you started with a 7:30 min/mi and did not know any better that, that pace would be your normal? I realize there are a lot of factors from person to person on this question but I was curious what everyone thought?

Well to start, why is one person's "comfortable pace" different than someone else's? Physiology and physics. There are a myriad of determining factors that help define how fast one person will be than another. But most of us compete in "endurance races" being a 5k or longer, and thus most of us are focused on the endurance end of the spectrum. That comes down to a few key things (but not exclusively): VO2max, lactate threshold, running economy, mitochondrial volume/density and stride efficiency. Here's something I wrote a while back which still mostly adheres with my thoughts on the subject:

Eureka! The Quintessential Running Post

I've worked with over 100 different runners in the last 3.5 years. One of the 20 questions I ask them is:

19) If I told you to run as slow as you can, how fast would you be running? This would be at a pace where you're barely breathing differently than normal walking. It feels like you're barely trying.

And over 90% of them say the same thing. They tell me a pace that is about 20% slower than what I estimate their Marathon pace to be. They don't have to want to run a marathon. That person could be training for a 5k. They could be a newbie or a seasoned vet. Yet, regardless of all that, that "slow as you can run which feels like you're barely breathing" almost always comes back at 20% slower than marathon pace race equivalency. So in my experience, that "comfortable pace" is very relative to that person's personal fitness and a simple calculation. I first ask what their recent PRs are to assess fitness. But I use question #19 to assess how close I am to that assessment.

Here's another excerpt from another thing that's more relevant to the second question: Can I just run what I want and that become the new normal?

The short answer is yes, you could do that. But the risk of injury/overtraining is far far higher. Thus, let's say there were two runners. One trains faster than their physiological pacing (i.e. uses 10k pace for long run pace) and the other trains at or near their physiological pacing. The runner who trains faster will improve faster. The runner who trains at/near will improve slower. But eventually (no guarantee though) the runner who is training too fast will succumb to overtraining/injury and need to take time off or back off. The at/near runner will continue slowly making gains. The other runner will come back from injury and bust out some serious pacing again to make up time. They'll make gains, and then get injured again. Take time off. So over the course of a year, the at/near runner will probably have improved by a greater margin that did the other runner who constantly had to adjust. The story of the tortoise and the hare comes to mind.

Train where you are, not where you want to be.
Most runners set goals for themselves. Whether that is a new distance or a faster time. But often I see runners extend themselves with the pacing too far. What was once marathon tempo pace becomes their 10k pace. But it's my belief that training where you are (with current fitness physiological pacing) is the best long term strategy. You'll make gains, and potentially can stay injury free for longer. You're working at appropriate paces, rather than paces of where you want to be. I made this image to illustrate this concept.

Screen%20Shot%202018-08-26%20at%202_27_48%20PM.webp


Let's say "current" is what we believe to be your current fitness pacing spectrum. Let's say that you have a new goal of lowering your half marathon time by 5 minutes. Some may say, well let's type in your new goal half marathon pace and come up with a new pacing scheme. This is where I'd argue you've chosen a "too fast" pacing spectrum. So what happens? Well potentially what was suppose to be "easy" is now a mixture of "easy" and "long". That's not a huge deal. You've made the "easy" just slightly harder, but things are still falling into those large zones of pacing at the slower end of the spectrum. But as you move further down the pacing spectrum you start to see issues. What was once your "10k" pace is now your "HM pace" for the purpose of workouts. So while you limited the 10k workouts to 20 min a single bout and having recovery intervals of 1 min for every 5 min of running, suddenly you're choosing to follow the HM rules for a workout at that same intensity. So instead of a 5:1, now suddenly you're looking at a duration cap of 60 minutes with no required rest breaks. That's a huge difference between how your body will perceive these workouts. In one case, you're making sure you don't do more than 20 min, but in the other case, you're suddenly allowing yourself to go all the way to 60 min. Could you complete the workout? It's certainly possible. But how your body reacts, adapts, and recovers from that workout is likely going to be completely different than was intended when following a training plan. You'll start to fall into a pattern where you'll always be trying to recover from the workout instead of reaping the benefits of it. It's what I call, "Don't Survive the Training, Thrive because of it". Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

On the opposite end, you can see that little harm will be done if you train just slightly too slow. So I always try to impress upon my runners, train where you are and not necessarily where you want to be. With consistent training, you'll get where you want to be. A runner who can put in lots of good efforts without getting injured can become consistent and make consistent gains. But a runner who is striving beyond their current fitness and consistently ends up injured is likely to stunt their improvement over time.

For a more personal example:

I used a "PR the day" type mindset from when I started in 2012 through mid-2015. I went out and ran hard every day. If wanted to be faster, I had to train at faster paces endlessly. So, in the 3 years prior to switching my mindset, this was my improvement progress. I did about 2700 miles in those 3 years, was never seriously injured and trained rather consistently.

5k – *35:00 to 23:36 (33% improvement)
10k – 51:45 to 49:49 (4% improvement)
HM – 2:01:00 to 1:49:24 (10% improvement)
M – 4:50:26 to 4:20:34 (10% improvement)

After 18 weeks of Hansons training with going slow, reducing the long run, increasing the training load and physiologically relevant pacing:

10k – 49:49 to 49:22 (1% improvement) *Occurred during the 2nd half of the marathon
HM – 1:49:24 to 1:46:00 (3% improvement) *Occurred during the 2nd half of the marathon
M – 4:20:34 to 3:38:53 (16% improvement)

After 3 years (7750 miles, but roughly the same timeframe) of going slow, reducing the long run, increasing the training load and physiologically relevant pacing:

5k - 23:36 to 19:27 (18% improvement)
10k - 49:49 to 39:54 (20% improvement)
HM - 1:49:24 to 1:30:35 (17% improvement)
M - 4:20:34 to 3:14:05 (26% improvement)
 
ATTQOTD:
I am also in the category of 'my pace is what I can do without feeling like I can't go on." Some days that is faster or slower than my average.

I think about pace more than is probably typical. I have come to believe that part of why I (and many others) disliked running was being commanded I needed to run a mile under a certain time in school. There was no way I could maintain that pace, and thus I always failed and thought I simply was not designed to be a runner. The more I think about this the more angry it makes me. It is still unreasonable to me to insist that every kid run fast, particularly from the get-go.
My current comfortable pace has increased over the last year. The main change is that running outside the instant pace on my phone or watch was never correct so I ignored it and looked at my average pace, which has improved as I do not have to slow down as frequently. I also simply increased my cadence without changing my stride length without any conscious effort. Running on a treadmill during the last few icy and frigid days has also been insightful. Setting the speed to my average pace feels so much slower than simply running outside. Playing with the paces on the machine to where I feel comfortable is surprisingly faster than I would have anticipated, but I could not maintain it for a whole mile. I am not interested in doing all my winter runs inside, but it was informative!
 
QOTD: How often do you run races just for fun?
ATTQOTD: A solid 95%. Have I mentioned I hate racing for time?! :rotfl2: Every couple years, I'll do a race to have something for PoT and I despise every second of it and swear I'll never do it again. Running is my "me" time, my time to engage in an activity that makes me feel good without any pressure to perform, so if it's ever not fun, I'll stop doing it. That said, I was able to get a PR and have fun at a couple Disney races, so it is possibel to mix the two, especially when one's PR isn't exactly difficult to reach, lol!

QOTD: Yesterday afternoon while driving home I started to ponder how each of us get to what we consider a comfortable pace for running. My thought is what makes a 8 minute pace easy for one person while 10 minute pace for someone else. I guess the question is how did you determine what your starting comfortable pace is? Also, do you think it would be possible if when you started to say I want "x" pace to be what my normal runs are at? For example lets say 9 min/mi is where you are today and is comfortable, do you think if you started with a 7:30 min/mi and did not know any better that, that pace would be your normal? I realize there are a lot of factors from person to person on this question but I was curious what everyone thought?
ATTQOTD: I get what you're asking and my answer is hard to figure. My comfortable pace is that at which I can get into a groove and keep going without undue stress on my lungs - I've had pneumonia twice, battle exercise- and allergy-induced asthma, and have some lung scarring that just makes sustained effort very difficult. But the numbers associated with that comfortable pace vary a LOT, depending on weather, allergies, shoes, etc. One day I might be comfortable at an 11:00/mi pace, others it's as slow as 15:00/mi. So I just don't use numerical data as a guide; I run by feel, then look at the numbers afterward.

ETA: Learning that my sustained comfortable pace is really slow compared to my short sprint pace was a hard pill to swallow. I've always been more of a natural sprinter and endurance sports do not come easily for me. So starting distance training with the idea that I "needed" to work toward 10:00 miles made for a rough start. I still get frustrated sometimes, but most days I'm just happy my body is still willing to carry me a long way at any pace.
 
Well to start, why is one person's "comfortable pace" different than someone else's? Physiology and physics. There are a myriad of determining factors that help define how fast one person will be than another. But most of us compete in "endurance races" being a 5k or longer, and thus most of us are focused on the endurance end of the spectrum. That comes down to a few key things (but not exclusively): VO2max, lactate threshold, running economy, mitochondrial volume/density and stride efficiency. Here's something I wrote a while back which still mostly adheres with my thoughts on the subject:

Eureka! The Quintessential Running Post

I've worked with over 100 different runners in the last 3.5 years. One of the 20 questions I ask them is:

19) If I told you to run as slow as you can, how fast would you be running? This would be at a pace where you're barely breathing differently than normal walking. It feels like you're barely trying.

And over 90% of them say the same thing. They tell me a pace that is about 20% slower than what I estimate their Marathon pace to be. They don't have to want to run a marathon. That person could be training for a 5k. They could be a newbie or a seasoned vet. Yet, regardless of all that, that "slow as you can run which feels like you're barely breathing" almost always comes back at 20% slower than marathon pace race equivalency. So in my experience, that "comfortable pace" is very relative to that person's personal fitness and a simple calculation. I first ask what their recent PRs are to assess fitness. But I use question #19 to assess how close I am to that assessment.

Here's another excerpt from another thing that's more relevant to the second question: Can I just run what I want and that become the new normal?

The short answer is yes, you could do that. But the risk of injury/overtraining is far far higher. Thus, let's say there were two runners. One trains faster than their physiological pacing (i.e. uses 10k pace for long run pace) and the other trains at or near their physiological pacing. The runner who trains faster will improve faster. The runner who trains at/near will improve slower. But eventually (no guarantee though) the runner who is training too fast will succumb to overtraining/injury and need to take time off or back off. The at/near runner will continue slowly making gains. The other runner will come back from injury and bust out some serious pacing again to make up time. They'll make gains, and then get injured again. Take time off. So over the course of a year, the at/near runner will probably have improved by a greater margin that did the other runner who constantly had to adjust. The story of the tortoise and the hare comes to mind.

Train where you are, not where you want to be.
Most runners set goals for themselves. Whether that is a new distance or a faster time. But often I see runners extend themselves with the pacing too far. What was once marathon tempo pace becomes their 10k pace. But it's my belief that training where you are (with current fitness physiological pacing) is the best long term strategy. You'll make gains, and potentially can stay injury free for longer. You're working at appropriate paces, rather than paces of where you want to be. I made this image to illustrate this concept.

Screen%20Shot%202018-08-26%20at%202_27_48%20PM.webp


Let's say "current" is what we believe to be your current fitness pacing spectrum. Let's say that you have a new goal of lowering your half marathon time by 5 minutes. Some may say, well let's type in your new goal half marathon pace and come up with a new pacing scheme. This is where I'd argue you've chosen a "too fast" pacing spectrum. So what happens? Well potentially what was suppose to be "easy" is now a mixture of "easy" and "long". That's not a huge deal. You've made the "easy" just slightly harder, but things are still falling into those large zones of pacing at the slower end of the spectrum. But as you move further down the pacing spectrum you start to see issues. What was once your "10k" pace is now your "HM pace" for the purpose of workouts. So while you limited the 10k workouts to 20 min a single bout and having recovery intervals of 1 min for every 5 min of running, suddenly you're choosing to follow the HM rules for a workout at that same intensity. So instead of a 5:1, now suddenly you're looking at a duration cap of 60 minutes with no required rest breaks. That's a huge difference between how your body will perceive these workouts. In one case, you're making sure you don't do more than 20 min, but in the other case, you're suddenly allowing yourself to go all the way to 60 min. Could you complete the workout? It's certainly possible. But how your body reacts, adapts, and recovers from that workout is likely going to be completely different than was intended when following a training plan. You'll start to fall into a pattern where you'll always be trying to recover from the workout instead of reaping the benefits of it. It's what I call, "Don't Survive the Training, Thrive because of it". Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

On the opposite end, you can see that little harm will be done if you train just slightly too slow. So I always try to impress upon my runners, train where you are and not necessarily where you want to be. With consistent training, you'll get where you want to be. A runner who can put in lots of good efforts without getting injured can become consistent and make consistent gains. But a runner who is striving beyond their current fitness and consistently ends up injured is likely to stunt their improvement over time.

For a more personal example:

I used a "PR the day" type mindset from when I started in 2012 through mid-2015. I went out and ran hard every day. If wanted to be faster, I had to train at faster paces endlessly. So, in the 3 years prior to switching my mindset, this was my improvement progress. I did about 2700 miles in those 3 years, was never seriously injured and trained rather consistently.

5k – *35:00 to 23:36 (33% improvement)
10k – 51:45 to 49:49 (4% improvement)
HM – 2:01:00 to 1:49:24 (10% improvement)
M – 4:50:26 to 4:20:34 (10% improvement)

After 18 weeks of Hansons training with going slow, reducing the long run, increasing the training load and physiologically relevant pacing:

10k – 49:49 to 49:22 (1% improvement) *Occurred during the 2nd half of the marathon
HM – 1:49:24 to 1:46:00 (3% improvement) *Occurred during the 2nd half of the marathon
M – 4:20:34 to 3:38:53 (16% improvement)

After 3 years (7750 miles, but roughly the same timeframe) of going slow, reducing the long run, increasing the training load and physiologically relevant pacing:

5k - 23:36 to 19:27 (18% improvement)
10k - 49:49 to 39:54 (20% improvement)
HM - 1:49:24 to 1:30:35 (17% improvement)
M - 4:20:34 to 3:14:05 (26% improvement)

I was looking forward to your answer and think you explained it very well. Thank you sir!
 
QOTD: Yesterday afternoon while driving home I started to ponder how each of us get to what we consider a comfortable pace for running. My thought is what makes a 8 minute pace easy for one person while 10 minute pace for someone else. I guess the question is how did you determine what your starting comfortable pace is? Also, do you think it would be possible if when you started to say I want "x" pace to be what my normal runs are at? For example lets say 9 min/mi is where you are today and is comfortable, do you think if you started with a 7:30 min/mi and did not know any better that, that pace would be your normal? I realize there are a lot of factors from person to person on this question but I was curious what everyone thought?

No matter where you start, your comfortable pace ought to be one where you can easily carry on a conversation for an extended period of time. If you feel like you're dying, that doesn't sound very comfortable and you need to slow down to one that is. As your fitness increases and you become a better runner, your comfortable pace will naturally increase as well, though as @DopeyBadger explains above, you can't run at one pace all the time and expect this to happen.


Nicely written!
 
ATTQOTD:

I know I'm running at a comfortable level if I'm with others and can talk as much as I want. When I can't do this easily, I know (without looking at my watch) that my pace is faster than X:XX, it's hot/humid, OR I'm getting sick.
 

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