The Running Thread - 2021

[Naomeri]

@flav
Room is booked.
Flights booked.
Registration is already on my calendar.
Somebody help me please...

Same

 

[Dopey 2020]

Awesome job on the race! What a wonderful feeling to pull off what you did and a testament to what you've been doing.

Based on the HM of 1:39, I would put your marathon probabilities at the following (based on this):

6% of runners run a marathon in 3:27 or less
10% of runners run a marathon in 3:29 or less
25% of runners run a marathon in 3:33 or less
50% or runners run a marathon in 3:41 or less

Continuous training paces:
View attachment 621290

80% of training at 8:37 min/mile or slower

Run/Walk pacing:
View attachment 621289

If doing an 18 min/mile walk pace, then my calculator suggests a marathon ratio of 4 min/30 sec at 7:24/18:00 or 90/30 at 6:37/18:00.

That's I few more numbers than I get with some basic formulas, thanks. Oddly enough, my training paces are all slower than your chart.
Recovery ~ 11'00"
Easy ~ 10'00"
Long run ~ 9'00"
10K ~ 8'00"
Best magic mile 6"35"
These are approximate numbers that I aim for depending on the day but most are easy days
M-Th is 5.2 continuous miles, usually between easy and long run but once a week is at or below 10K pace.
Sat is 10-20 miles (20 is every few weeks if I have a marathon coming up)
10 is continuous at long run pace
12-15 is continuous at easy pace
20 is sometimes continuous recovery or sometimes I do 15 at long or recovery pace then change into my race shoes and do run/walk at my goal race pace on tired legs.

Looking at the percentage of improvement and how much more I need to get to a BQ marathon (currently 3:25 for me) is where I'm left wondering.
Knowing that the faster you get, the harder it is to get faster, I guess my real question is what paces should I aim for to improve, and what is a realistic time line while still keeping 5 day/week <40 miles?
I know if I could plot it, it would be an increasing curve, but I can't find a way to figure the most efficient approach.

 

[CBMom01]

I have some interesting anecdotal info to share re: footwear and back pain...

For reference, I'm a natural forefoot runner: I land on the balls of my feet, lever my heels almost to the ground, then lift and toe off. Just my natural mechanics. I do run-walk intervals, and I walk in a normal heel-toe way. Long ago, I ran in low-drop shoes and was a happy runner: Newtons, the OG Altras, Kinvaras, a Mizuno zero-drop I forget the name of... but they all changed things up and the fit didn't work for me. For the past few years, I've been running in Brooks Glycerins - first the 16s, skipped the 17s, and lately the 18s. And I've had constant lower back, hip, and high hamstring pain, plus my feet ache horrifically after anything longer than 6 miles.

Last week, I bought a pair of Altra Torin 5s. The fit is SO GOOD! My heels are anchored and nothing is squished. But they're zero-drop, and I've been running in a 10mm drop. So I used the Altras to walk the parks during W&D, but ran in the Glycerins. After each race, I was in pain. A lot of pain. Wondering how I'll ever manage Dopey pain. But then I'd go walk around in the Altras and feel the pain lift. So today I did my first real run in the Altras - and what a difference! No foot pain. No back pain. No high hamstring or hip pain. My calves actually felt BETTER and I had no issues at all with the zero drop. (To be fair, I spend my non-running time barefoot or in Birkenstocks, and I'm a ballet dancer, so a zero-drop isn't much of a stretch for me.)

My core is plenty strong, but I do have scoliosis plus an auotimmune disease that enjoys attacking soft tissue, so YMMV... but sometimes, it really is a shoe that makes or solves a problem. Now I need to figure out what to do with the Glycerins I stockpiled and get me a second pair of Altras to rotate!

Totally agree about the shoes. And as my running changes my shoe needs did bounce around.
Years ago I realized that my best waking shoes are a couple types of Brooks but I can’t run in them. Go figure.

 

[CBMom01]

When does runDusney membership open up again?

 

[Naomeri]

When does runDusney membership open up again?

No idea, but I would guess maybe not until after registration for Springtime Surprise, at the earliest.

 

[The Expert]

When does runDusney membership open up again?

Someone on the Club FB group a few days ago said they were told via email it would be March, 2022.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Oddly enough, my training paces are all slower than your chart.
Recovery ~ 11'00"
Easy ~ 10'00"
Long run ~ 9'00"
10K ~ 8'00"
Best magic mile 6"35"

That's not terribly odd. You were a 1:49 HM runner. So you were training like a 1:49 HM runner:



But you've now proven you're a 1:39 HM runner on a legit course. So know it's best to train with paces that reflect that gain in fitness. Keep in mind Tom Schwartz states that you can train on easy days as much as 5k pace + 5 min and still reap the benefits. So if your 5k pace is now an estimated 21:37 (6:58 min/mile) based on the HM performance, then you could train as slow as 12 min/miles on easy days if you so desired.

These are approximate numbers that I aim for depending on the day but most are easy days
M-Th is 5.2 continuous miles, usually between easy and long run but once a week is at or below 10K pace.
Sat is 10-20 miles (20 is every few weeks if I have a marathon coming up)
10 is continuous at long run pace
12-15 is continuous at easy pace
20 is sometimes continuous recovery or sometimes I do 15 at long or recovery pace then change into my race shoes and do run/walk at my goal race pace on tired legs.

Your best bet for optimal gains is going to be to find a training plan that closely resembles your time availability. That way you'll have a natural progression of workouts with specific intents on what you're working on physiologically. That'll maximize the gains within a certain timeframe.

Looking at the percentage of improvement and how much more I need to get to a BQ marathon (currently 3:25 for me) is where I'm left wondering.
Knowing that the faster you get, the harder it is to get faster, I guess my real question is what paces should I aim for to improve, and what is a realistic time line while still keeping 5 day/week <40 miles?
I know if I could plot it, it would be an increasing curve, but I can't find a way to figure the most efficient approach.

Right, so let's approach that question in the following manner. What HM time do I need to be able to run to reasonably believe I would have a chance at a 3:25 marathon based on training around the same volume as you do now? For a 3:25 M, I would put your 40ish miles per week around 6hrs per week. Now is that 40 miles per week average over 16 weeks, or is that more like I get to 42-44 miles on my peak weeks. Because I average about 50 miles per week, and my peak week was right around 60. Regardless, I would say 6 hrs per week for marathon training is on the lower end of the spectrum. So we should use the 25% value as a good barometer at best. By my calcs, that's something like a 1:35:30 runner. So you're a 1:39:30 runner. The difference is about 4%. So to me that is easily within a single training cycle's expectations. If you can hit a 20:46 5k (6:41), 43:17 10k (6:58), or 1:35:30 HM (7:17), then I would feel comfortable saying you're ready to attempt a sub 3:25 M on an ideal day with the same volume of training you're doing around right now. By no means a guarantee at that point, but you'd have a chance. My 5k was around a 21:02 and 43:25 10k when I ran a 3:23:43 in Oct 2016. I ran a 1:38:49 in Dec 2015 about a year prior. So that lines up with the theoretical data as well.

Ideally, you train near the paces I laid out for a 1:39 runner. That'll give you the better shot at improvement. And sticking to a structured training plan will be very helpful as well. But I think it's reasonable to think you could run a sub 3:25 M within a year's time. And your chances would likely improve if you could slightly increase your training volume from the 40s to the 50s-55s. Even if that's only a single training cycle commitment. Like you stay with your 40s from now until a Fall marathon, and then for the Fall marathon you bump up the training volume slightly. Just a single 16 week commitment to get to a BQ.

 

[Dopey 2020]

@DopeyBadger Thank you! That makes sense, I didn't even think of the fact that I was training based on where I was as opposed to where I am. That 40 is on the high end, over the last 6 months the minimum is 30, maximum 43, usually ~35/week. There were 2 outliers, a vacaction with 10 and my b2b marathons with 57. I will look to move to your paces while I maintain over the winter (hopefully).
My plan is recover at my paces for the next 2-3 weeks (through Thanksgiving) then speed it up to your chart through Dopey. I am signed up for the Princess 10K because it's most likely my last trip to Disney during that week and I was going to run it at race pace to see how I'm doing mid winter. Then I'll be at the spring surprise which I will fit in the training plan for a marathon May 22.
I'm not thinking I'll be ready by then, but I think 6 months will be a good point to calculate improvement and start looking at the fall calendar. Maybe I'll surprise myself.
Thanks again!

 

[Kerry1957]

Looking for a couple of product recommendations for my kids for possible Christmas/birthday presents:

We live in N. Michigan and winter is usually very wintery. IDK if they will be interested in running outside during the snow months (aka December- early March) but they DESPISE the treadmill. They have UA coldgear shirts/hoodies/leggings already.

Jacket or vest for outdoor running? Anything *specific* (brand/model) while keeping in mind that they are growing teenagers and I won't even spend $100 on a jacket for myself.

Anyone know of a coupon code for goodr? I'm striking out with google...

Hard to go wrong with anything Smartwool. Not cheap but excellent quality. Moosejaw has some good sales at times. Moosejaw was recently bought by Walmart so I hope they do not destroy the brand.

 

[CBMom01]

I second the Smartwool recommendation.

 

[The Expert]

Third vote for Smartwool. I find them regularly at Sierra for a discounted price.

 

[CBMom01]

Third vote for Smartwool. I find them regularly at Sierra for a discounted price.

Yeah - they go on sale pretty regularly when new stick shows up. It’s fairly easy to find deals if you watch for them and are not picky about colors and patterns.

Though…that was pre-Covid. Who knows now.

 

[Sleepless Knight]

My monthly mileage is a lot less than some of the others. Oct had a nearly 2 week layoff due to sinus infection, plus a big gap in September. Maybe due to weather? Those meddling kids? I don't remember.

Queue up the Scooby Doo ending from Wayne's World!

I needed to stop doing a "PR the day" mindset and focus on appropriate training paces.

My mistake was believing that every training run had to be at race pace. While that mentality helped me finish every race I signed up for, it also left me tired and pretty much done with running on the long runs. Training was the thing that I hated doing, but needed to do in order to have the fun of race day.

The one thing that was most surprising during the transition from my previous plans was that despite more days per week and more mileage I actually felt better during the training. It didn't feel harder. And I think that was a function of buying into the mindset of train slow to race fast.

A similar thing happened with me. I used to need 2 or 3 days to recover from my long runs when I was only running 3 days a week. Once I started running 5 days a week at a slower pace, I started to feel back to normal on my rest day following the long run.

Hi all. I'm more of a slow 5k runner but have come to really love it over the last year. Staying in this thread is a way of keeping myself accountable. Don't know if it's mostly just more serious runners in here but if there are other tortoises like me:

I used to think this thread was only for serious runners. Instead I found that it's a place where runners of all speeds, abilities, and goals share our own experiences, triumphs, disappointments, and such.

Unfortunately, I am quite afraid that I lack both the speed and endurance. The plan that I am following for the marathon is having me run in the 30s mpw.

My @DopeyBadger plans consistently had me running in the 20s per week for Dopey. I have finished both marathons just fine despite very hot conditions during both races unlike anything I had ever trained in or raced in before. The accumulated volume and consistency over time really adds up.

how is your body ready to run 26.2 miles if you limit yourself to a maximum of 2 1/2 hours running? I want to "trust the plan," but I am VERY nervous that I will seriously bonk if I don't run a greater distance. At this point, I am able to run 12 miles in 2:30. Mind you, I felt like I could continue running at that pace (12'29"), but how can one trust that I will be able to run more than double that number of miles if I don't train for a greater mileage which would take me longer than 2 1/2 hours? OY!

I shared the same concerns you have outlined here. Two factors helped me. First off, I knew from previous training experience that following a well laid out and properly designed plan works. I knew that the time spent training reaps the rewards in the end. Secondly, I tested the plan on a half marathon. I had been used to 14 mile long runs for a half marathon. The new plan had me with an 8 mile long run for the half marathon. Despite being an absolute mental wreck and very sore come race due to outside circumstances that contributed to an absolutely terrible start, I wound up crushing my PR by 3 minutes.

At the end of the day, this is a major hurdle for almost ALL runners who attempt to do less than a 20 miler in preparation for a marathon. How can I possibly "only" do X distance and be prepared for a marathon? And for some, they can be convinced by the anecdotes of other's experiences. Some other people like to look at cold hard data that shows that a lower % LR of the total of training yields a better conversion from shorter distances (link). But the grand majority only have that light bulb click for themselves after they simply trust the training and do it for themselves. I was one of the group of the grand majority. I had to personally experience it myself before the idea truly took hold.

I was a mixture of this. I had many runners here share their own experiences with me that helped me begin to wrap my head around the concept. As I began to want to attempt the marathon, I also did not really want to devote 5-6 hours every Saturday with the long runs necessary under the plan I had been using. It was less difficult to put the miles in over the course of the week instead of in one day. At the same time I also came to recognize that even though I could ask the same question 50 different ways, I had to choose to trust the plan and see if it worked. It did. Spectacularly.

I went through and found some old plans that reflect people of a similar fitness level to a 15 min/mile LR. They all had different availabilities and goals, but to my best recollection where each successful on the plans despite limiting their LRs.

I'm one of those plans. I put in more miles than the Galloway plan, but spread them out over 5 days instead of backloading them into one really long run. Despite getting a nasty chest cold 10 days before the race, I was just fine come race day. During each Dopey race, I knew I was feeling stronger after coming off the cold and knew I was exactly where I needed to be when I felt infinitely stronger than usual during the last 3 miles of the half with the full the next day. I will not pretend that the training plan is easy. It was not. I had to give up some things to get the miles in. I had to find new ways to persuade myself to go out for the run when I wanted to do thousands of other things more. But it all paid off.

I can see the real benefit to the 16-18 mile LR plans from a time perspective. It is hard to find huge chunks of time several weeks in a row to make a traditional marathon plan work

That to me is biggest benefit of a more weekday volume and shorter long run plan. It's much easier to run 4-6 miles during Monday through Friday and then have a 2.5 to 3 hour run on Saturday than to have to carve out 5-6 hours on Saturday alone.

This will be my first full marathon. Ran many half but never a full. My buddy, who has ran several full, told me I should look to get some new insoles as the ones that come with shoes are paper thin and ones with more cushion will help. So was looking to see what I should get. I guess the one issue i hope they would help target is that my lower back will start to hurt after a bit. Not in the middle, but on the sides.

You may want to get fitted at a local running store. Mine helped me identify what exactly I needed. What works for one runner may not work at all for another. Personal experience works best and as others have shared, you get that through training.

 

[StacyStrong]

Just an FYI - Garmin 245s are $100 off pretty much everywhere for anyone looking.

 

[GreatLakes]

The DCRainmaker Site has a pretty extensive list of tech sales going on right now.

 

[camaker]

The DCRainmaker Site has a pretty extensive list of tech sales going on right now.

Thanks! I was really hoping to see a better discount on the 945, given its age at this point, but I guess I’ll have to take what I can get.

 

[GreatLakes]

Thanks! I was really hoping to see a better discount on the 945, given its age at this point, but I guess I’ll have to take what I can get.

I love my 945. I have a feeling the lack of discount on the 945 compared to the Fenix 6 line means we will see a Fenix 7 before we see a 955.

 

[dis_or_dat]

@Dopey 2020 great job! Especially with the 10k beforehand and park too. I think you can BQ, but don't forget to give yourself a little cushion too. Good luck!

 

[gjramsey]

Cypress Half Marathon Race Report:

This morning was pretty fantastic for running, with T+D was around 90. It was actually warmer than the forecast said it was going to be and I overdressed. Cypress Running Club is one of the sponsors of the race, and our running club was out in force again this year. Had a team picture in front of the school about 30 minutes before race start. The race site is about 10 minutes from the house and hosted at a high school. Previous years of the race we were able to hang out inside the school, but this year there is a new owner of the race series and they did not pay to have the school open. They also made some minor changes to the course with the start/finish line at the same spot with a hard 90 degree turn right after the start and right before the finish.

This year they had a 1:40 pacer and I was shooting to be sub 1:40, so started with the group. The pacer was knocking out the miles a bit under the pace needed for a 1:40. Ran with the pacer until mile 7 and tried to pick up the pace. That worked ok until mile 12 and started to feel like the calves might start cramping, so took a quick walk break, and then finished off the race.

Splits:
1 7:25.6
2 7:32.3
3 7:28.1
4 7:23.9
5 7:22.9
6 7:24.4
7 7:16.9
8 7:14.1
9 7:17.4
10 7:19.4
11 7:22.6
12 7:24.8
13 7:40.9
14 0:44.8

Finished with a 1:36:57 (tied for 4th fastest half and exact same time at this race two years ago). 4/59 age group, 68/567 male, 77/1039 overall.

Pretty surprised I was able to keep the pace up almost the whole race. I have not really trained to for this kind of speed this fall, so over all very happy with my performance.

CRC team picture

 

[Mr_Incr3dible]

I love my 945. I have a feeling the lack of discount on the 945 compared to the Fenix 6 line means we will see a Fenix 7 before we see a 955.

I had no idea that the 945 was "aged", but I'll second that about really liking mine. Nifty device.