This is just so sad,,and makes me ask WHY would someone do this?? I don't call it 'playing'??

[sam_gordon]

the moment he picked her up and put her outside that window.

The fact that he stuck his head out for 8 seconds before is telling of something.

You are the second one to say this. There is nothing that says he stuck his head out for 8 seconds, and nothing to say he put her outside the window. The article says he LOOKED out the window for eight seconds before picking up Chloe. I agree he is 110% at fault, but let's not make up facts.

 

[LSUmiss]

I watched the whole interview on CBS. I can't help but feel horrible for the grandfather. Not in a million years do I think he did this with malicious intent. He had a terrible, terrible lapse in judgement. He'll never recover from this. And as he said, nothing will change what hell he is already in. I wish that kind of grief on no one.

With that said . . .

I think the video footage is likely horrific to watch. The fact the prosecution still went forth after the mother pleaded for them not to is damning. He was clearly negligent, and the law has to hold him accountable. (although I think he is already living his life sentence)

I believe the grandfather thinks he is telling the story accurately. I am sure it happened quickly, and your mind will play tricks on you in circumstances like this -- incredible how the mind is self protecting.

As for being colorblind, what colors does he have trouble seeing? If it is the blue/green then that could have played a factor, but a small one. They said the video shows him peeking outside the window for at least 8 seconds alone. You'd think you would feel a breeze, warmth of hot air, or something else to alert other senses. Maybe even a smell of the pier/ocean or sounds of outdoor activity (it is very loud on the docks on embarkation day.) I cannot place entire blame on window tint. There is a series of of events that lead to this accident, they all linked together. Being colorblind is one link the the chain, not the whole chain.

I wish the family would stop placing blame on RCCL. At some point you have to look inward and realize it was a terrible tragedy, but RCCL didn't cause this to happen. I guess they aren't there yet, and there is nothing else to do except hope some day they will get there.

Prosecution has to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt & unless there is way more info, I would have a hard time convicting him on that standard.

 

[sam_gordon]

Prosecution has to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt & unless there is way more info, I would have a hard time convicting him on that standard.

He's charged w/negligent homicide. Here's the Puerto Rico law...

“Any person who causes the death of another through negligence shall incur a misdemeanor, but shall receive the penalty established for a fourth degree felony.” P.R. Laws tit. 33, § 4737

I think the only question that needs to be answered is whether he was negligent in putting Chloe on the railing in front of an open window. I would have a hard time saying he WASN'T negligent. His (and the family's) defense is he thought the window was closed and RCI should have made it more obvious it was open.

 

[LSUmiss]

He's charged w/negligent homicide. Here's the Puerto Rico law...

I think the only question that needs to be answered is whether he was negligent in putting Chloe on the railing in front of an open window. I would have a hard time saying he WASN'T negligent. His (and the family's) defense is he thought the window was closed and RCI should have made it more obvious it was open.

I understand, but I think he’s believable enough unless there is some other really compelling evidence that I have not been privy to.

 

[starry_solo]

I understand, but I think he’s believable enough unless there is some other really compelling evidence that I have not been privy to.

I don't think it matters if he is believable or not. Negligence is typically determined by an objective standard, not subjective. Whether a reasonable person in the same situation would have believed it, not whether the criminal defendant believed it.

 

[LSUmiss]

I don't think it matters if he is believable or not. Negligence is typically determined by an objective standard, not subjective. Whether a reasonable person in the same situation would have believed it, not whether the criminal defendant believed it.

Still having no personal experience with it, it would seem reasonable to me that the window could be closed. Again unless there is some obvious video or pic showing otherwise. Of course, there may be others with personal experience who think it’s not reasonable.

 

[sam_gordon]

Still having no personal experience with it, it would seem reasonable to me that the window could be closed. Again unless there is some obvious video or pic showing otherwise. Of course, there may be others with personal experience who think it’s not reasonable.

Well, the window could have been closed. It obviously wasn't. The question is whether a reasonable person would have thought the window was closed. I have a hard time believing a reasonable person would think the window was closed. Standing next to the window, your other senses should tell you the window was open, even if your sight doesn't.

 

[mummabear]

Prosecution has to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt & unless there is way more info, I would have a hard time convicting him on that standard.

I don't.

https://people.com/crime/grandfathe...all-from-cruise-ship-i-was-just-in-disbelief/
Not sure if this particular article has been shared.
I found this interesting in it

The windows were not compliant with window-fall prevention codes, designed to prevent children from falling out of windows,”/QUOTE]

And I wonder how they think they weren't?

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Prosecution has to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt & unless there is way more info, I would have a hard time convicting him on that standard.

I honestly don't see how anyone could not hold him negligent.

The punishment,if any, however may vary. Nothing is going to bring back the child so I'm sure that weighs in on people's decisions. Just like children who die due to being left in cars (both heat and cold). We tend to understand that aspect but that doesn't mean we don't hold by a legal sense no one accountable for their actions. Not every child death that way leads to charges but certaintly some do even when no intent to harm is evident. Certainly what doesn't help their 'case' is how they've opted to go about it in the eyes of the media, be it because they had a terrible greedy lawyer or not.

 

[tzolkin]

I really liked how he said he was color blind and couldn't tell that the window was open. I'm like, don't you push on what you think is supposed to be glass with your hands and find air?!

Totally agree. Another poster already mentioned that he should have been able to feel the breeze, smell the air, and notice a sound difference as well so that's multiple senses that would have had to fail in addition to his eyesight. Also, I watched the video posted and there's a very noticeable track where the window slides and a handle. Other obvious signs that one would pay attention to before putting a baby there. I really cannot believe that any person with normal mental abilities could have thought the window was closed.

I think he full well knew the window was open, he enjoyed the breeze and looking outside so he picked her up to do the same, and he dropped her. She likely squirmed or lunged forward and he didn't have as good of a grip on her as he thought he did.

I can't even begin to count the number of times I have seen someone hold a baby or small child on a railing in a very dangerous location because they were totally confident that they wouldn't drop them. Or even adults hopping up and sitting on a ledge where a fall would be deadly. I fully acknowledge that sometimes I'm overly paranoid about things like this happening, but at least that fear prevents me from putting myself or others in a position where a (completely preventable) tragedy could occur.

The poor mother, who has all my sympathy, keeps saying "we can't let this happen to another child". Truth is, scores of cruiseships have windows exactly like these and have been sailing for decades. Millions and millions of passengers on thousands and thousands of voyages. It's never happened before - never. Why? Because no one has ever held a baby out an open window before. Mic drop.

The part in red is exactly the issue. I am fairly certain that this was an accident and that the grandfather had no ill intent. But it's an accident that never would have been able to occur if he hadn't done something incredibly stupid.

I think he's mentally told himself he picked her up to bang on the window. I think he thinks he's telling the truth, but I think his mind is actually blocking the truth (if that makes sense)

I agree that it's likely that he's now recreating memories of what he wants to believe happened because he keeps repeating the "I thought there was glass so it's not my fault" story to himself (probably incessantly since the incident) so he now is convinced that's true. It's possible that he realized right after she fell that it was so unbelievably and inexcusably careless to hold her in front of an open window that he immediately starting grasping for some excuse to make it seem like it could have happened to anyone and it wasn't his fault. Perhaps he purposely made up a lie to be able to face his family. Or he may need to believe this story to cope with the tragedy himself.

False memories are a real phenomenon that we ALL create all the time. At this point he may not even realize that he's lying because he has a convincing memory that the story he is telling is what really happened.

 

[LSUmiss]

I honestly don't see how anyone could not hold him negligent.

The punishment,if any, however may vary. Nothing is going to bring back the child so I'm sure that weighs in on people's decisions. Just like children who die due to being left in cars (both heat and cold). We tend to understand that aspect but that doesn't mean we don't hold by a legal sense no one accountable for their actions. Not every child death that way leads to charges but certaintly some do even when no intent to harm is evident. Certainly what doesn't help their 'case' is how they've opted to go about it in the eyes of the media, be it because they had a terrible greedy lawyer or not.

If I thought it would be reasonable to believe the window was closed then I couldn’t.

 

[mnrose]

See what I don't get is how you could stand looking out a window for 8 seconds and not realize it's open. The air movement, smells, sounds, etc are all DIFFERENT when you look out an open window than a closed one. If you don't believe it, try it sometime. It's not reasonable to stand in front of an open window and think "it's closed." Just not. Heck even BLINDFOLDED I think nearly 100% of people would accurately tell you "open" vs. closed. Seriously. 8 seconds is a LONG time. It's not like walking past. I think at the time he KNEW it was open, and held her up to experience the sights and sounds through the window, firmly believing he had her carefully held. But, 18 month olds are squirmy and can move quickly. It happens. And, now, his mind for his own self-protection is telling him that the window is closed. Your mind is very powerful and can cause you to "make up" explanations when confronted with a terrible tragedy.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

If I thought it would be reasonable to believe the window was closed then I couldn’t.

I don't think anyone can reasonably think the window was closed but I can think that people may ignore that even if subconsciously and go for more emotions when on the jury. Of course emotions goes both ways on that front.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

See what I don't get is how you could stand looking out a window for 8 seconds and not realize it's open. The air movement, smells, sounds, etc are all DIFFERENT when you look out an open window than a closed one. If you don't believe it, try it sometime. It's not reasonable to stand in front of an open window and think "it's closed." Just not. Heck even BLINDFOLDED I think nearly 100% of people would accurately tell you "open" vs. closed. Seriously. 8 seconds is a LONG time. It's not like walking past. I think at the time he KNEW it was open, and held her up to experience the sights and sounds through the window, firmly believing he had her carefully held. But, 18 month olds are squirmy and can move quickly. It happens. And, now, his mind for his own self-protection is telling him that the window is closed. Your mind is very powerful and can cause you to "make up" explanations when confronted with a terrible tragedy.

I know I've forgotten a window was left open before in my house or my car. But I've never mistaken an open window for closed.

 

[John VN]

My take is that from the moment she left his one arm grasp, he went into and remains in a state of shock.

 

[sam_gordon]

If I thought it would be reasonable to believe the window was closed then I couldn’t.

So you think it's possible for someone to stand in front of an open window, over 100' above the ground, for eight seconds, and not realize the window is open?

 

[Squirlz]

So you think it's possible for someone to stand in front of an open window, over 100' above the ground, for eight seconds, and not realize the window is open?

Helen Keller on a bad day could tell that.

 

[LSUmiss]

So you think it's possible for someone to stand in front of an open window, over 100' above the ground, for eight seconds, and not realize the window is open?

If he was playing with a toddler & preoccupied, I can believe he didn’t notice & assumed they were closed.

 

[ronandannette]

Still having no personal experience with it, it would seem reasonable to me that the window could be closed. Again unless there is some obvious video or pic showing otherwise. Of course, there may be others with personal experience who think it’s not reasonable.

If I thought it would be reasonable to believe the window was closed then I couldn’t.

If he was playing with a toddler & preoccupied, I can believe he didn’t notice & assumed they were closed.

I guess it's going to come down to who sits on the jury. Not one person on this thread who has ever been on a cruiseship similar to that one finds it reasonable that he wouldn't have known the window was open.

 

[starry_solo]

I guess it's going to come down to who sits on the jury. Not one person on this thread who has ever been on a cruiseship similar to that one finds it reasonable that he wouldn't have known the window was open.

I ageee.

I haven't been on that cruise ship. But I also know that the charge is not based upon what the grandfather thought or what his intentions were...PR isn't charging the grandfather with an intentional act.