Thoughts on Disney/ Florida Legal Battle News

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NoCutsies

Easy Diz It
Joined
Apr 10, 2016
I just wanted to say that I appreciated the legal analysis on the show 5/2. The topic matter can be dense but I thought the lawyer did a great job explaining things. While opinion can be great, it's also very nice to hear objective legal reasoning. I understand it might not be everyone's cup of tea so I just wanted to put in my two cents that I enjoyed it very much.
 


100%

He did a great job of making this emothionally charged, complex legal situation reasonably understandable.
 
Thank you all. It is always a privilege to be on the podcast.

I have to tell a story. When I research legal issues, I make notes of statements in decisions and statutes, typically by cutting an pasting from the online version of the decisions. These notes are not well-organized or much of a coherent thought, just stream of consciousness driven by seeing a statement and thinking, I might need to remember this.

Well, my mistake was providing the notes to Craig, who then tried to follow along in my notes with what I was saying. I think we were ok while I was talking about Disney's lawsuit (because I had outlined the five counts) but when we got to CFTOD's lawsuit, my notes resembled traffic on I-4, so I have to apologize to Craig for all the confusion.
 
I agree - appreciated it very much. This is such a mess ..... a big mess.
 


Thank you all. It is always a privilege to be on the podcast.

I have to tell a story. When I research legal issues, I make notes of statements in decisions and statutes, typically by cutting an pasting from the online version of the decisions. These notes are not well-organized or much of a coherent thought, just stream of consciousness driven by seeing a statement and thinking, I might need to remember this.

Well, my mistake was providing the notes to Craig, who then tried to follow along in my notes with what I was saying. I think we were ok while I was talking about Disney's lawsuit (because I had outlined the five counts) but when we got to CFTOD's lawsuit, my notes resembled traffic on I-4, so I have to apologize to Craig for all the confusion.
I really appreciated your input, but I do have a couple of questions for clarification. I am lost on the first amendment complaint as Desantis effectively reorganized the Reedy Creek Improvement District, which is supposed to be wholly independent of Disney. Last time I checked, private corporations could not issue Municipal Bonds, but Reedy Creek has about 1 billion of outstanding municipal bonds. So, if Reedy Creek is an independent "government" entity, how is Florida targeting Disney? We all know it is an open secret that Disney controls the Board, but statutorily and when filing with the State of Florida, I believe Reedy Creek claimed independence even when re-certifying in 2022. Hence, the municipal bond debt. It is also important to note the original vision for Epcot and much of the reasoning behind granting Disney the extraordinary ability to establish Reedy Creek was that Epcot was to be a city and not a theme park. I think an important distinction between the two suits that were not brought up was that Florida vs. Disney is a state suit. If Florida prevails in the state suit, nullifying any of the restrictive covenants that Disney and Reedy Creek passed before the establishment of the CFTOD, does that not nullify any standing Disney has to proceed in the Federal Suit?


Thanks again
 
I really appreciated your input, but I do have a couple of questions for clarification. I am lost on the first amendment complaint as Desantis effectively reorganized the Reedy Creek Improvement District, which is supposed to be wholly independent of Disney. Last time I checked, private corporations could not issue Municipal Bonds, but Reedy Creek has about 1 billion of outstanding municipal bonds. So, if Reedy Creek is an independent "government" entity, how is Florida targeting Disney? We all know it is an open secret that Disney controls the Board, but statutorily and when filing with the State of Florida, I believe Reedy Creek claimed independence even when re-certifying in 2022. Hence, the municipal bond debt. It is also important to note the original vision for Epcot and much of the reasoning behind granting Disney the extraordinary ability to establish Reedy Creek was that Epcot was to be a city and not a theme park. I think an important distinction between the two suits that were not brought up was that Florida vs. Disney is a state suit. If Florida prevails in the state suit, nullifying any of the restrictive covenants that Disney and Reedy Creek passed before the establishment of the CFTOD, does that not nullify any standing Disney has to proceed in the Federal Suit?


Thanks again
The bond issue was settled by the Florida Supreme Court in 1968, I don’t really understand stand it but the Florida Supreme Court in 1968 said they could. 🤷‍♂️
 
I really appreciated your input, but I do have a couple of questions for clarification. I am lost on the first amendment complaint as Desantis effectively reorganized the Reedy Creek Improvement District, which is supposed to be wholly independent of Disney. Last time I checked, private corporations could not issue Municipal Bonds, but Reedy Creek has about 1 billion of outstanding municipal bonds. So, if Reedy Creek is an independent "government" entity, how is Florida targeting Disney? We all know it is an open secret that Disney controls the Board, but statutorily and when filing with the State of Florida, I believe Reedy Creek claimed independence even when re-certifying in 2022. Hence, the municipal bond debt. It is also important to note the original vision for Epcot and much of the reasoning behind granting Disney the extraordinary ability to establish Reedy Creek was that Epcot was to be a city and not a theme park. I think an important distinction between the two suits that were not brought up was that Florida vs. Disney is a state suit. If Florida prevails in the state suit, nullifying any of the restrictive covenants that Disney and Reedy Creek passed before the establishment of the CFTOD, does that not nullify any standing Disney has to proceed in the Federal Suit?


Thanks again
I'm not Jack. I'm also not a lawyer. Nor do I play one on the internet. But I'd like to say something on a couple of things you ask about.

You are correct that private corporations don't issue Municipal Bonds. You are also correct the Reedy Creek has about $1 Billion outstanding municipal bonds. Reed Creek is not Disney. Disney is simply the largest land owner with Reedy Creek and thus pays a significant portion of the costs incurred by Reedy Creek.

Disney may "control the Board" of the old Reedy Creek. That's a function of them owning the land.

I've no idea if Reedy Creek claimed independence in 2022, but it seems to me they meet the legal definition.

You may be right about the origins and intentions when Reedy Creek was first formed in the mid-60's. But the futuristic Epcot was only a part of the purpose of Reedy Creek, not its sole reason for existence. The fact that Epcot wasn't built as Walt originally envisioned but instead turned into a theme park is not relevant to the Reedy Creek charter.

You didn't mention that the FL legislature had ratified the existence of Reedy Creek just a couple of years ago. What changed since then?

Yes, there are two different suits happening right now. One filed in Federal court by Disney because they are saying their rights under the US Constitution are being violated. Hence the need to file in federal court. The suit filed by Florida in State Court was filed there because they are arguing about a state law.

If Disney looses the State suite, it has no effect on their standing in the Federal suit. Their US Constitutional rights are still valid. Even if Disney looses in the state suit, the Federal suit would over-rule that decision if decided in Disney's favor.
 
I'm not Jack. I'm also not a lawyer. Nor do I play one on the internet. But I'd like to say something on a couple of things you ask about.

You are correct that private corporations don't issue Municipal Bonds. You are also correct the Reedy Creek has about $1 Billion outstanding municipal bonds. Reed Creek is not Disney. Disney is simply the largest land owner with Reedy Creek and thus pays a significant portion of the costs incurred by Reedy Creek.

Disney may "control the Board" of the old Reedy Creek. That's a function of them owning the land.

I've no idea if Reedy Creek claimed independence in 2022, but it seems to me they meet the legal definition.

You may be right about the origins and intentions when Reedy Creek was first formed in the mid-60's. But the futuristic Epcot was only a part of the purpose of Reedy Creek, not its sole reason for existence. The fact that Epcot wasn't built as Walt originally envisioned but instead turned into a theme park is not relevant to the Reedy Creek charter.

You didn't mention that the FL legislature had ratified the existence of Reedy Creek just a couple of years ago. What changed since then?

Yes, there are two different suits happening right now. One filed in Federal court by Disney because they are saying their rights under the US Constitution are being violated. Hence the need to file in federal court. The suit filed by Florida in State Court was filed there because they are arguing about a state law.

If Disney looses the State suite, it has no effect on their standing in the Federal suit. Their US Constitutional rights are still valid. Even if Disney looses in the state suit, the Federal suit would over-rule that decision if decided in Disney's favor.
Good discussion. I do disagree on the Federal vs. State Suit, but I am no lawyer either. I think Reedy Creek does have some procedural issues in regards on the passage of the latest restrictive covenants and how that will play into the Federal Suit if Florida prevails in the State Suit. Mainly, Reedy Creek and Disney never got the City of Bay Lake and Lake Buena Vista to sign the agreement which I believe is required since they are within the Reedy Creek Improvement District. If the restrictive convenants Disney and Reedy Creek entered into is the basis for their challenge in the Federal Suit, but Reedy Creek didn't follow the Florida statutory requirements for entering into an agreement with Disney, then I believe that does create real problems for their Federal Case.
 
I hope Jack is right that eventually cooler heads will prevail and all of this will be dropped. Right now this seems like a losing issue for DeSantis in the long run (increasingly looking like he's not ready for prime time) and a distraction for Disney.
 
I hope Jack is right that eventually cooler heads will prevail and all of this will be dropped. Right now this seems like a losing issue for DeSantis in the long run (increasingly looking like he's not ready for prime time) and a distraction for Disney.
If I had to guess, being a student of politics/policy and not a lawyer, I would imagine Florida's plan is to drag this out until the GOP primary is over one way or the other, then shrug their hands and say "We did what we could, don't mess with Florida or you get a headache, etc."
 
I very much appreciated Jack's wealth of knowledge, but I was pretty lost in all the legalese. It's needs to be REALLY dumbed down for people like myself to understand. :D
 
I hope Jack is right that eventually cooler heads will prevail and all of this will be dropped. Right now this seems like a losing issue for DeSantis in the long run (increasingly looking like he's not ready for prime time) and a distraction for Disney.
Now that the state has passed numerous laws targeting Disney (dissolving RCID, reestablishing RCID as CFTOD, giving FDOT authority to inspect all transportation systems at WDW, nullifying contracts between RCID and Disney), there are really only two ways that this ends: a judge rules or the Florida legislature overturns its own laws. I can't see Disney just giving in and DeSantis actually can't give in without changing the laws again.
 
I really appreciated your input, but I do have a couple of questions for clarification. I am lost on the first amendment complaint as Desantis effectively reorganized the Reedy Creek Improvement District, which is supposed to be wholly independent of Disney. Last time I checked, private corporations could not issue Municipal Bonds, but Reedy Creek has about 1 billion of outstanding municipal bonds. So, if Reedy Creek is an independent "government" entity, how is Florida targeting Disney? We all know it is an open secret that Disney controls the Board, but statutorily and when filing with the State of Florida, I believe Reedy Creek claimed independence even when re-certifying in 2022. Hence, the municipal bond debt. It is also important to note the original vision for Epcot and much of the reasoning behind granting Disney the extraordinary ability to establish Reedy Creek was that Epcot was to be a city and not a theme park. I think an important distinction between the two suits that were not brought up was that Florida vs. Disney is a state suit. If Florida prevails in the state suit, nullifying any of the restrictive covenants that Disney and Reedy Creek passed before the establishment of the CFTOD, does that not nullify any standing Disney has to proceed in the Federal Suit?


Thanks again
Sorry, I had paying work that had to get done today. :duck:

If you want to read the Florida Supreme Court decision, here is a link to an unofficial but normally reliable reprint of it https://law.justia.com/cases/florida/supreme-court/1968/37569-0.html

You can see the state challenged RCID's authority to issue bonds as violating the state constitution because, the state argued, the bonds would primarily benefit the "private enterprise" (WDW) as the largest landowner in RCID. The court found the argument "untenable" because the "general welfare and continued prosperity of Florida depends in a large measure upon tourism, recreation and the conservation of natural resources" and promoting tourism is a valid public purpose. The court also rejected the argument that the statute creating RCID was an "unlawful attempt to delegate the taxing power of the state." I don't think frequent posters to this discussion board would contest the importance of tourism to Florida.

Given this finding, I'm not sure RCID "independence" from WDW is all that crucial. I'm willing to assume that when Disney informed Florida officials that it wanted to build a theme park in Florida, Disney's lawyers insisted that Disney have the control over development that RCID provided. (To be clear, I don't know.) Whatever the reason for RCID, the arrangement was valid enough for the FSC in its 1968 decision. I don't think anyone can reasonably doubt the impact Disney has had on Florida tourism. The FSC's reasoning - that RCID could issue bonds to promote tourism - is also why I don't think it is accurate to say Walt's vision for Epcot as a city was the reason for RCID but if you have something to support this statement, please provide it.

There's a lot that could be said about state v federal lawsuits. I think one important point to remember is that even if the state court were to side with CFTOD on one attempt to invalidate the two agreements, the question of an impermissible motive still remains. First, was the creation of CFTOD improperly motivated by Disney's protected speech. But also, was CFTOD's decision to "void" the two agreements motivated by Disney's protected speech. Even if RCID hadn't dotted all of its i's and crossed it t's on the agreements (and that is hard to believe), would the state have even noticed much less taken the action it did to void those two agreements if Disney hadn't opposed the parental education bill?

Finally, I don't mean to pick on you but, like a lot of other people, you used the word "standing." Standing is a very technical term which simply means federal courts want to make sure the plaintiff has a sufficient stake in the outcome. No harm, no foul. Even if the state court were to agree with CFTOD, that wouldn't affect Disney's standing to proceed in federal court. It might affect the relief Disney obtains, but not its standing.
 
Thanks for the clarification Jack. If I understand the whole scenario correctly, even if the State court rules against RCID (the old board) actions and declares it null and void, the result of the Federal suit could reinstate it. The Federal court could actually order going back to the old, pre-restructuring RCID arrangement, but that seems unlikely.

This might be a good time to remind everybody what you said on the podcast about the whole process taking a long time and it is more likely that a settlement would be reached at some point.
 
This might be a good time to remind everybody what you said on the podcast about the whole process taking a long time and it is more likely that a settlement would be reached at some point.
As I wrote previously, I don't think that a settlement is possible unless the Florida state legislature and DeSantis agree to undo some of the new laws. That's not likely.
 
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