Train could pass though Disney World

[Mikey15]

The silly thing is there is also a play to link to SunRail at a more southerly point, such as the Tupperware station. There must be some other reason someone is pitching for a 528 based route. It would be harder to manage - more land to be bought and condemned to turn the line around from the south end of the airport to the northwest corner and align to 528. Even harder to locate a station along that line - go look at open land and just try to imagine a station squeezed in up there!

Definitely more expensive. The “alternative northerly route” apparently does exist, with costing, but would be $1B more with more tunnels and bridges (elevated sections) to solve the land problem.
https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/brightline-trains-not-likely-to-make-stop-near-i-drive
That being said if Disney actually wants a Disney Springs-adjacent station and not something down by Wide World of Sports or Celebration and then having to bus, Skyliner, or monorail people up, I’m wondering if there’s merit to skewing north. Much easier to do a station off the NW side of I-4 by DS and then continue SW back to the I-4 median if you’re already running in the I-4 median NE of there. Would also add more ridership if it served OCCC and I-Drive area, if not all the way up to Universal.

 

[ParrotBill]

you what else? The last thing Disney wants is a train making it easy for their resort guests to travel to Universal resort...

 

[Mr. Drauer]

This is not a commuter train or a light rail system, and would not be able to replace DME. This is a passenger line to get from Miami, to Orlando Airport, and a PROPOSAL to go from OIA to Tampa. They don't have a route yet, they don't have any agreements with any entity to go from OIA to Tampa, but they do have a handshake with Disney to build a station. At this time, they only have a "resereved rail envelope" on I-4 of 44' within the future proposed right-of-way (primarily in the median) from SR 528 going south. (there was also a rail envelope adjacent to SR 528 to connect to I-4, but much of that was scrapped with the SR 528 express lanes project recently completed.) The Disney station is something that was part of the original State plan for a High Speed Rail to Tampa - a two-story station adjacent to I-4 near World Drive and SR 417. That project was scrapped by then Governor Scott in 2014. Brightline has not negotiated any use agreements with FDOT, nor with CSX for use of their line to get out of OIA to the south, nor has there been an agreement to hook up with Sun Rail at Meadow Woods station, or any way to get a train anywhere onto WDW property. They don't have tracks or any right-of-way usage along SR 417 yet either. IF they decide upon a route to study, they will still have to not only complete the necessary NEPA approvals (which for an EIS can take up to 5 years), agree with many entities to purchase ROW, and go through the appropriate state and federal permitting requirements. Most of this is just wishful thinking at this point - Brightline has not even been operating since March and will be lucky to finish the line to OIA with there current revenue projections and with Virgin dropping out as a partner.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

Yeah, the thing that keeps me from 100% thinking Disney will go the train route is they can’t control the amount and frequency of the trains. Being reliant on the tracks and probably only 1-2 trains going back and forth during the day could lead to long waits at the airport. Whereas with the buses they can add more routes if they see it’s filling up and can react in real time.

and yet... here we are. They just announced the death of ME once the train is operating.

this... is not welcome news.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

This is not a commuter train or a light rail system, and would not be able to replace DME. This is a passenger line to get from Miami, to Orlando Airport, and a PROPOSAL to go from OIA to Tampa. They don't have a route yet, they don't have any agreements with any entity to go from OIA to Tampa, but they do have a handshake with Disney to build a station. At this time, they only have a "resereved rail envelope" on I-4 of 44' within the future proposed right-of-way (primarily in the median) from SR 528 going south. (there was also a rail envelope adjacent to SR 528 to connect to I-4, but much of that was scrapped with the SR 528 express lanes project recently completed.) The Disney station is something that was part of the original State plan for a High Speed Rail to Tampa - a two-story station adjacent to I-4 near World Drive and SR 417. That project was scrapped by then Governor Scott in 2014. Brightline has not negotiated any use agreements with FDOT, nor with CSX for use of their line to get out of OIA to the south, nor has there been an agreement to hook up with Sun Rail at Meadow Woods station, or any way to get a train anywhere onto WDW property. They don't have tracks or any right-of-way usage along SR 417 yet either. IF they decide upon a route to study, they will still have to not only complete the necessary NEPA approvals (which for an EIS can take up to 5 years), agree with many entities to purchase ROW, and go through the appropriate state and federal permitting requirements. Most of this is just wishful thinking at this point - Brightline has not even been operating since March and will be lucky to finish the line to OIA with there current revenue projections and with Virgin dropping out as a partner.

change your mind? Disney seems to think it’s a replacement.

 

[Eric Smith]

change your mind? Disney seems to think it’s a replacement.

I don't think they do. The train comes online over a year after DME ends and that's if Brightline hits their schedule which they never do.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

I don't think they do. The train comes online over a year after DME ends and that's if Brightline hits their schedule which they never do.

the Orlando Sentinel seemed to think so. They referenced it with the announcement. “In November, Walt Disney World and Brightline announced an agreement to build a station at Disney Springs for its high-speed rail service, which is set to connect to South Florida and Orlando International Airport. Track currently is being put into place, and service to OIA is slated to start in 2022.”

 

[skeeter31]

the Orlando Sentinel seemed to think so. They referenced it with the announcement. “In November, Walt Disney World and Brightline announced an agreement to build a station at Disney Springs for its high-speed rail service, which is set to connect to South Florida and Orlando International Airport. Track currently is being put into place, and service to OIA is slated to start in 2022.”

Right, but that’s the track from South Florida to MCO will be (hopefully) operational by 2022, not the WDW portion of the track. That’s more of 2023-24 (but based on Brightlines prior track record it’s probably more likely 2026-27).

 

[Eric Smith]

Right, but that’s the track from South Florida to MCO will be (hopefully) operational by 2022, not the WDW portion of the track. That’s more of 2023-24 (but based on Brightlines prior track record it’s probably more likely 2026-27).

I was just about the say this. Brightline's website says the following:

"Brightline is developing 170 miles of new track into the new South Terminal at the Orlando International Airport (MCO) as part of the company's Phase 2 expansion into Central Florida. The massive infrastructure project is making progress and encompasses four zones including the area of the Orlando International Airport and the Brightline Vehicle Maintenance Facility. This monumental endeavor, which will use 225 million pounds of American steel, will include the laying of 490,000 ties and transporting 2.35 million tons of granite and limestone by 20,000 railcars. Additionally, approximately 2 million spikes and bolts will be hammered and put in place over the next 36 months.

We look forward to connecting South Florida to Orlando in 2022. "

I don't believe the line to Disney Springs even has government approval yet.

https://www.gobrightline.com/suspended-service-notice

 

[skeeter31]

I was just about the say this. Brightline's website says the following:

"Brightline is developing 170 miles of new track into the new South Terminal at the Orlando International Airport (MCO) as part of the company's Phase 2 expansion into Central Florida. The massive infrastructure project is making progress and encompasses four zones including the area of the Orlando International Airport and the Brightline Vehicle Maintenance Facility. This monumental endeavor, which will use 225 million pounds of American steel, will include the laying of 490,000 ties and transporting 2.35 million tons of granite and limestone by 20,000 railcars. Additionally, approximately 2 million spikes and bolts will be hammered and put in place over the next 36 months.

We look forward to connecting South Florida to Orlando in 2022. "

I don't believe the line to Disney Springs even has government approval yet.

https://www.gobrightline.com/suspended-service-notice

Exactly. The line to WDW has a LOT more work to do before it would be operational. They’re focused first on the South Florida line and hopefully having that ready at some point in 2022. WDW line would start being worked on after that, and that’s why I can’t even see them hitting their target date of 2023, it’s going to be much later in the decade.

 

[Eric Smith]

Exactly. The line to WDW has a LOT more work to do before it would be operational. They’re focused first on the South Florida line and hopefully having that ready at some point in 2022. WDW line would start being worked on after that, and that’s why I can’t even see them hitting their target date of 2023, it’s going to be much later in the decade.

If it ever even happens. Brightline has been shutdown for over 6 months now. I wonder how long they can hang on without any revenue coming in.

 

[Mr. Drauer]

change your mind? Disney seems to think it’s a replacement.

No. Everything is still the same. They have made no progress. No route to study yet, no agreements, no engineering, no permitting, and no current revenue stream. I have reviewed their proposal for FDOT twice, and they have not come back to the table to negotiate for use since 2019. Still no movement with CSX for their tracks, or with CFX for co-location on SR 417. Just Disney saying sure, you can put a stop here because we already have plans for a station from the previous High Speed Project which already went through reviews and approvals before being killed by the gov. The Slantinel is hardly a solid news source for anything at this point.

 

[doconeill]

I'll also reiterate that Brightline is an inter-city service. This isn't expected to be super-frequent, and has a limited number of trains. Before restrictions, I believe they operated on a roughly hourly schedule, with 16 trips in each direction. When they stretch this out to MCO, they may be able to keep that schedule, but then to stretch it out to Tampa I expect the schedule to stretch. But figure if you are planning to take Brightline from MCO to Disney Springs, you're talking about waiting at best up to an hour for a train, boarding dwell time (lots of people with luggage), then a 15-min (probably, optimum) travel time, then disembark, then transfer to buses you'll be waiting for, to get to your resort that an Uber/Lyft probably would get you to in a third of the time.

And you aren't simply going to just walk on the train - you need to buy a ticket. And some of those 240 seats on a Brlghtline train will already be occupied.

The only way this would remotely work is that a SEPARATE service, running a commuter-like shuttle train, could conceivably co-exist and reduce the wait times for a train. It likely couldn't go as fast as a Brightline train but probably doesn't matter a ton. But it also creates scheduling headaches because you'd have to defer to Brightline trains and two trains can't occupy one platform - and I don't know if the MCO station is being built with multiple tracks in mind beyond two through tracks. And there isn't even a design for a Disney Springs station yet that I have seen which would have a similar problem. And no such service has been announced by anyone.

Repeat after me...Brightline is NOT replacing Magical Express.

 

[vacationer1954]

Yes. Orlando Sentinel can say whatever they wish, but Disney isn't saying anything about the train replacing Magical Express. Mears is the "replacement" for Magical Express.

 

[Jake]

A train going from Orlando airport to Disney, Seaworld and Unoversaw will get people using it

 

[andyman8]

For those wondering about the timeline on all of this, here’s what Brightline is saying. Keep in mind this is incredibly optimistic.

Miami to West Palm Beach (resumption of service) – Third quarter of 2021
Aventura – Third quarter of 2021
PortMiami – First quarter of 2022
Boca Raton – First quarter of 2022
Extension to Orlando (MCO) – Fourth Quarter of 2022
Station at Disney Springs – Fourth Quarter of 2023

They’re also saying at full buildout they’re expecting to operate on an hourly schedule, 7-days a week from early morning (5 or 6am if they follow what they did before they suspended operations) until around 11pm (I think they did 12am/1am on Fridays and Saturdays before the suspension). Again, plans with this particular company have changed frequently but this is at least what they’re aiming for.

While I think a lot of things would have to align (and likely won’t) for this to be a viable option for transportation between MCO and WDW, I do think this will be immensely helpful for DCL, which is going all-in reportedly on a terminal in Miami (near PortMiami). If DCL docks one of their ships in Miami for most or all of the year, this could be a viable link between WDW and a Miami-based DCL departure.

 

[doconeill]

I've mentioned previously that the Brightline trains are limited in capacity - they won't have the capacity to handle just WDW traffic on an hourly basis alone, never mind the inter-city passengers.

 

[Happytycho]

I've mentioned previously that the Brightline trains are limited in capacity - they won't have the capacity to handle just WDW traffic on an hourly basis alone, never mind the inter-city passengers.

I don't consider this to be much of a problem because the train is going to be super inconvenient for going between and the airport and WDW and they can just price that demand out of the market to preserve seats for intercity service. The Disney stop is targeted at people travelling up from South Florida (or maybe Tampa), not for airport service.

Separately, I do believe that Brightline will need to lengthen their trains shortly after starting Orlando service because there's basically no way they can ever be profitable with the current train length.

 

[Weedy]

For all the geeks out there this guy does great construction videos on the Brightline train construction

 

[doconeill]

So I just learned tonight, although it is not NEW new (first discussed last October that I can see), that Brightline has been talking with SunRail to study sharing the corridor between Disney and somewhere east of MCO (possibly Innovation Way), giving SunRail access to the airport and an East-West corridor. I mention this because SunRail is a commuter system - their railcars have twice the capacity of Brightline. While luggage would still be a problem, the capacity needed could potentially come from SunRail.