WDW resort going forward

[Suger Mag]

Wait, the monorail is a 44 year old Nixon era tram that USED to be included in the modestly priced hotels and tickets...
And it's falling apart

I reject the notion that somehow it's worth $200 drachmas a night.

Perhaps if they had expanded it to the other 60% of the property and it was exclusive to those spots...but they didnt.

I agree that YOU don't think it is worth it.... but you are vieiwing the monorail ... however honestly... with glasses that are more jade than rose colored.

For the first time guest, or for the infrequent visitor (especially those with small children) the monorail is darn cool... and might be worth more of those drachmas to stay at a resort on the loop. I know it was one of MY kid's favorite parts the first time we stayed as a family in 2008 ... coincidentally at the GF (my SIL choice, not mine, I prefer AKV in the 'Disney Deluxe' catagory).

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I agree that YOU don't think it is worth it.... but you are vieiwing the monorail ... however honestly... with glasses that are more jade than rose colored.

For the first time guest, or for the infrequent visitor (especially those with small children) the monorail is darn cool... and might be worth more of those drachmas to stay at a resort on the loop. I know it was one of MY kid's favorite parts the first time we stayed as a family in 2008 ... coincidentally at the GF (my SIL choice, not mine, I prefer AKV in the 'Disney Deluxe' catagory).

I figured the YOU counter would be along.

Look...I'm not even saying That I don't think the hotels are cool...nor that there isn't a value to it.

I'm rejecting that it's worth what amounts to be $150 a night.

And the reason I'm doing it is not because I hate the poly or have some devious agenda...

It's because accepting ridiculous up charges for services With ridiculous base charges is exactly the weapon that Disney uses against all of us. Particularly this regime...who has made a habit of charging more for the same old things without pause (see: the ultimate thrill seekers tour)

I understand the counter arguments...I just reject them until somebody gives me the tangible benefit other than no bus to magic kingdom.

In fact, those hotels are actually pretty isolated from the whole property...almost as much as animal kingdom that everyone complains about.

This will be highlighted again when the construction at downtown is complete.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree here, respectfully.

 

[ArwenMarie]

The location does matter. We did a split stay once, ten day trip, BLT and BCV (paid cash through Disney). Amazing trip, and the location did play into that. Being able to just walk over to the park(s)? I don't know if it's priceless, but it certainly made that trip what it was. So you can't take the location part out of the equation.

However, my feeling on the Deluxes is that Disney is coasting a little bit too much on the location factor though. They do need to improve the basic housekeeping for one. And the deluxes do feel understaffed. So while I don't think the Disney Deluxes need to be on the level of a Four Seasons in terms of service, I think they've let them slip a bit too much and I blame understaffing. You can feel it in the rooms...they're clean, the basics are all there, but you just feel like they could have cleaned a bit more. Maybe have more people at the pool keeping things neat. That kind of thing.

The one thing that I always notice is how clean the main lobbies are, and how the furnishings are always kept up pretty well. And then how conditions degrade as you make your way to your room.

 

[ArwenMarie]

I mostly agree but you are missing (or skirting) my point a bit-- the 4 seasons doesn't have a resort in the category we are discussing. What would they charge if they had one on the monorail loop?

I was looking at the Four Seasons prices and I think they doing a bit of aspirational pricing right now.

 

[briand1023]

I would have to agree. Last trip to boardwalk I noticed similar things.

 

[HarvardAce]

Are you paying for the location at the "grand"
And "contemporary"?
Yes...of course you are.

Is it worth $500...of course not...

And before somebody says " we think it's totally worth it!!! "...
Come up with metrics that can convince me of that... Feel free to use a slideshow and laser pointer if necessary...

For us, time and convenience are well worth the extra money at a deluxe. On days we visit the Magic Kingdom while staying at the Contemporary, we probably save an hour of our vacation time in travel versus staying at a moderate, and probably even more when compared to some of the more remote value resorts and off-property. Being able to return to the room for a nap midday with a 3 year old without traveling for an hour by bus is also invaluable.

It's a different calculation for each person -- our family has been blessed to have enough money where paying extra for the location is not an issue, so saving time is extremely important for us (since that's the one thing no one has enough of!). For others, money is tighter and it's not worth it.

And, to put on my economics hat, something's value is probably most accurately defined as "what someone is willing to pay for it." As long as people keep staying at the deluxes at the price that Disney is charging, then that is by definition the right value.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

And, to put on my economics hat, something's value is probably most accurately defined as "what someone is willing to pay for it." As long as people keep staying at the deluxes at the price that Disney is charging, then that is by definition the right value.

I concede your point...

My counterargument is that laissez faire leads to price gouging and always has (that... And that there is no such thing as a non-controlled "free market" in this or any other society...particularly at wdw... Which was built on the back of a long history of public concessions and infrastructure construction)...

And that wdw has continued to borderline gouge especially under Iger and that resort prices are a prime example of that.

There were times when wdw pricing was actually a pretty good deal...late 90's through 2005 being a prime example. Not "cheap" nor "affordable to all"...they never claimed that and we would hate the place if it were.

But the consumers have allowed the "supply and demand" curve to crack them over the head like a golf club since.

We (notice the "we") have been really bad consumers...paying more for in many cases a diminishing product. Its irresponsible spending that has really exposed wdw to its greatest threat for the future...

And that is itself..management's zest for a billionaire clientele to reap short term gains and bloat an already bloated ticker price.

I fear that TWDC is being run more and more on a "light switch" approach...
And I want it to strengthen and endure... Even if the dividend falls (they should be illegal anyway).

And...it appears that Disney is NOT selling the deluxes at the "market" price...if prevelant rumors hold true...
I speak of conversion of wilderness lodge, and possible beach club to follow...in addition to prior conversions at animal kingdom, contemporary, and the Polynesian currently underway.

They have built themselves an ingenious parachute in DVC...instead of recognizing that they can't sell... They convert it, and repackage it to sell in a longterm partial ownership value plan:..

It's ingenious and actually hurts no one. But it's not Adam Smith textbook moves.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I was looking at the Four Seasons prices and I think they doing a bit of aspirational pricing right now.

Ahhhh...

But the rates at the four seasons that just opened are right where they should be when compared to other four seasons...

They actually might be low...as in not
Marked up at all (I imagine this is because they are knowingly sacrificing their core business clientele by plopping it in an amusement complex in a non-business town... To some extent. Of course they have pure recreation locations...if somewhat more exotic)

But seasons is charging their rate for a core reputation of service along with superior design and construction.

It's both...not either or.

The grand Floridian is a headfake...it's an elaborately themed set piece that makes
Little effort at superior service other than V&As and whatever motivated employees you MIGHT find.

That is my take...it's for consideration...not attempting to win hearts and minds. Just trying to put it in perhaps a new perspective.

 

[Objectivity]

I figured the YOU counter would be along.

Look...I'm not even saying That I don't think the hotels are cool...nor that there isn't a value to it.

I'm rejecting that it's worth what amounts to be $150 a night.

And the reason I'm doing it is not because I hate the poly or have some devious agenda...

It's because accepting ridiculous up charges for services With ridiculous base charges is exactly the weapon that Disney uses against all of us. Particularly this regime...who has made a habit of charging more for the same old things without pause (see: the ultimate thrill seekers tour)

I understand the counter arguments...I just reject them until somebody gives me the tangible benefit other than no bus to magic kingdom.

In fact, those hotels are actually pretty isolated from the whole property...almost as much as animal kingdom that everyone complains about.

This will be highlighted again when the construction at downtown is complete.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree here, respectfully.

It's not a slideshow and laser pointer, but consider this... regarding price, the * rating of the resorts on Disney property is secondary to supply and demand.

1. How many hotel rooms are there in the area immediately surrounding MK? (According to Cvent, that number is 144,125, second most hotel rooms for a city in the country.)

2. How many hotel rooms are there on-site at MK? (30,000 according to Touring Plans).

Only 20% of hotel rooms are on-site in Orlando and only 1.8% have monorail access (2,664 rooms, including BLT according to Touring Plans). In regard to pricing, Disney can charge a premium for its monorail resorts because the supply is so limited. Same, to a lesser degree, for its other resorts. Are the a true 5* experience? No. But, they do provide experiences that you could not have at any 5* in the Orlando area.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Regarding price, the * rating of the resorts on Disney property is secondary to supply and demand.

1. How many hotel rooms are there in the area immediately surrounding MK? (According to Cvent, that number is 144,125, second most hotel rooms for a city in the country.)

2. How many hotel rooms are there on-site at MK? (30,000 according to Touring Plans).

Only 20% of hotel rooms are on-site in Orlando and only 1.8% have monorail access (2,664 rooms, including BLT according to Touring Plans). In regard to pricing, Disney can charge a premium for its monorail resorts because the supply is so limited. Same, to a lesser degree, for its other resorts. Are the a true 5* experience? No. But, they do provide experiences that you could not have at any 5* in the Orlando area.

Granted...

But now there is a true "five
Star" service provider (potentially) up and running and located next to wilderness
Lodge...
Which brings it in the elusive "zone" you speak of and can be compared directly to the "grand experience" (I say that phrase in reference to a former GF general manager who was cuffed and got a free ride in the Orange County sheriffs cruiser)...

Or are we back to the choo choos being "worth" that much more a night.

Now we do have an "on property" measuring stick...that Has been the shield in the past.

 

[Andrew015]

Now we do have an "on property" measuring stick...that Has been the shield in the past.

This is quite the intriguing point...

 

[ArwenMarie]

Four Seasons prices across the country vary widely. I think that the FS is overpriced right now for the Orlando market. Just my opinion. But they will find that out sooner than I will! On the other hand, they might decide that this is the price they want to be at, so be it. I have not found other Four Seasons across the country to take that attitude though.

Regardless, it's still not a direct comparison to some of the Disney Deluxes though. FS doesn't have the location that the CR or BC/BW has (walkable). Or even the GF and Poly considering the monorail.

I would say that the FS's location is really not much better than the Waldorf. The Ritz-Carlton/Grande Lakes complex will also a competitor....certainly farther from the parks than the FS or Waldorf, but for the people in town for other reasons (business, shopping) might suit just as well.

 

[Andrew015]

Four Seasons prices across the country vary widely. I think that the FS is overpriced right now for the Orlando market. Just my opinion. But they will find that out sooner than I will! On the other hand, they might decide that this is the price they want to be at, so be it. I have not found other Four Seasons across the country to take that attitude though.

Do you not think that on some level, Disney may have some influence as to the room prices? Maybe not necessarily a direct influence (i.e. "set your room prices HERE"), but with some kind of writing on the wall as to the effect of "Don't bite the hand that feeds you"... perhaps even with a given "range"? I would have to imagine that room pricing is discussed and somewhat controlled within the contractual agreement between Disney and Four Seasons; Not too "high", but not too "low"...

 

[Objectivity]

Granted...

But now there is a true "five
Star" service provider (potentially) up and running and located next to wilderness
Lodge...
Which brings it in the elusive "zone" you speak of and can be compared directly to the "grand experience" (I say that phrase in reference to a former GF general manager who was cuffed and got a free ride in the Orange County sheriffs cruiser)...

Or are we back to the choo choos being "worth" that much more a night.

Now we do have an "on property" measuring stick...that Has been the shield in the past.

You're arguing these prices in a vacuum. I will grant you that moving these choices to New York or LA or East Podunk would greatly affect the value of any Disney property. Prices would need to be adjusted and the Disney properties would not be at the top of the premiere list.

We aren't comparing in a vacuum. We're talking specifically about hotels in the MK area. When you look at the prices in terms of the "Disney experience," the little things like being on-site with (relatively) frequent bus transportation, a monorail at specific resorts, etc - down to hidden Mickeys in the tub compartments... all those little things offset the * rating shortcomings that otherwise exist.

In recent years, I've stayed at WL and POR and this year, we're renting points at AK. We've talked about staying off-site for all the reasons you mentioned, but in the end we chose the path we're taking because of convenience (perceived and/or real). We like having buses available, even though we sometimes take cabs. We like having a meal plan so we can prepay the entire trip. We like not having to drive, especially since we only have one driver in the family. We like not having to think about anything except having a wonderful time as a family. To us, that's the 5* experience. It doesn't have to do with the trappings on the walls or the ability to make day-of reservation. It's creating a premier experience that we don't think we could get elsewhere in the area, regardless of cost.

 

[clsteve]

Do you not think that on some level, Disney may have some influence as to the room prices? Maybe not necessarily a direct influence (i.e. "set your room prices HERE"), but with some kind of writing on the wall as to the effect of "Don't bite the hand that feeds you"... perhaps even with a given "range"? I would have to imagine that room pricing is discussed and somewhat controlled within the contractual agreement between Disney and Four Seasons; Not too "high", but not too "low"...

Even ranges like that would put them in the collusion penalty box. And that's a very bad place to be.....

They covered that de facto by letting Seasons in instead of Marriott, etc......

 

[Aurora0427]

Who in their right mind expects 5 star hotels at Disney? Your paying the Disney premium and location location location. I have Platinum Elite at Ritz-Carlton for how often I stay(prefer them over the 4 Seasons and Mandarin oriental in most cities). I stay at the GF because it is the nicest resort Disney has IMO, and its one monorail ride away from MK, and I personally love the great themeing, even more so at Christmas when we visit. Would I expect higher service if it was not a stones throw away from MK, was not in the disney bubble, and was not impeccably themed you better believe it. Yet If I wanted true 5 star I would stay at the Orlando Ritz-Carlton. I think you may be misunderstanding why people stay at Disney's Deluxe resorts. Not to sound snooty but if you can afford a Disney Deluxe odd’s are you can afford the 4 Seasons and Ritz-Carlton in Orlando just like me and those, individuals just like me choose the Disney's Deluxe resorts because we want a “Disney vacation, and hotel”. Not because we feel we need white glove service to equate for our dollars. On a side note I have never had trouble with the GF staff in fact they are usually superb. 2 cents.

Yes. This. Exactly.

 

[HarvardAce]

There were times when wdw pricing was actually a pretty good deal...late 90's through 2005 being a prime example. Not "cheap" nor "affordable to all"...they never claimed that and we would hate the place if it were.

But the consumers have allowed the "supply and demand" curve to crack them over the head like a golf club since.

We (notice the "we") have been really bad consumers...paying more for in many cases a diminishing product. Its irresponsible spending that has really exposed wdw to its greatest threat for the future...

I don't disagree that their prices have increased to ridiculous levels compared to what they were as little as 7 years ago (the first time my now wife and I stayed at the Polynesian). Unfortunately for us consumers, it appears that demand for Disney is fairly inelastic when it comes to pricing, so they can continue to jack up the prices, and consumers still pay them. My hope is that continued competition from Universal Studios will force Disney to either reduce their prices or provide more value for the money.

The other thing to remember is that you can still get a room in a deluxe for well less than the rack rate. Aside from just flat discounts to the rack rate (which seem to be in effect more often than not), free upgrades to either better rooms within a resort or even a whole resort move are not unheard of. In the end, it doesn't cost Disney much more for you to be staying in a theme park view at the Grand Floridian as it does for you to be staying at All-Star Sports. If their value resorts are full, I imagine that they upgrade people to better resorts to allow for more people to stay on property, which in the end is where they are getting the most of their money.

This was a long time ago (circa 1995?), but my family was going to be staying for two weeks at the Caribbean Beach (which, at the time, I think was the cheapest available). We booked way in advance, and a month or two before we were supposed to call, we got a call from Disney asking us if we wanted to be upgraded, at no cost to us, to the Contemporary. We were told to expect a garden wing room, but when we checked in, they gave us a corner room in the tower overlooking the Magic Kingdom. Not only did they probably get another family to stay on property, but I'm sure that subconsciously (and perhaps a bit consciously) is why, now that I've got my own family, that we are such crazy WDW fanatics.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Even ranges like that would put them in the collusion penalty box. And that's a very bad place to be.....

They covered that de facto by letting Seasons in instead of Marriott, etc......

Remember also that the the seasons is very different than a competitor...

A private company whose primary stake holders are William Gates and Prince Alwed Al EuroDisney (who Eisner used to kiss goodbye and leave chocolates on his pillow when he went to work)

They also sold some of their $5 an acre property for the first time to a non controlled company...

Unlike the leased land that all retail and the Swan and Dolphin sit upon...

That was a quiet but major step for WDW...

And I think it was part of a concession on Disney's part to address specifically the "grand" problem.

I posted this when the 4 seasons was announced...it was a "white flag" on Disney service standards.

My take -

They are yielding the defined clientele to the four seasons and will over time continue to ease out of that "market" while running the most expensive 3 star in the US this side Maui...

Disney gets high money traffic in their guest areas without having to "tolerate" the costs that it requires...
The seasons gets huge international exposure due to traffic
and we all get to debate what's better.

Except the debate was over YEARS ago. I lived it and worked it...pay attention to the man behind the curtain...
There is no service argument..most of us agree.

But I contend that DOESN'T let disney off the hook to provide basic competency in service... For that price.

Even if they can do longterm cost cutting moves...like...I don't know... Say
Build a smallish DVC addition - with the potential to convert other "out buildings" (some would describe as outhouse buildings) In the future to meet "DVC demand"?

cause you know...we DVC can't get enough! Especially failed space conversion (Saratoga and "Jambo, everyone")

I get the "five star Disney" concept...but that is bought with blood from the mouse and that of mostly dead men...

You can appreciate the convenience and created ambience without burning your money at a higher rate and encouraging them...it is possible.
They do tons of feedback research...
Here's my suggestion - bomb the polls. Let them have it. Put it on the radar.

Because it was built with quality in mind. It must be maintained with quality service in mind...

That...IS the lodging industry. No matter what's out the window.

It's up to the consumer to demand at least the same return of the product as was offered prior...

And that doesn't mean that location can truly justify a $549 rack rate up from $329 in 2002
(I checked that 3 times because I couldn't quite swallow it)

It's like termite damage longterm...you can be quite content for along time and not question it...but then your house falls down and all of the sudden it becomes clear.
And what you knew is gone.

(I know I'm not convincing anyone...to be clear )

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I don't disagree that their prices have increased to ridiculous levels compared to what they were as little as 7 years ago (the first time my now wife and I stayed at the Polynesian). Unfortunately for us consumers, it appears that demand for Disney is fairly inelastic when it comes to pricing, so they can continue to jack up the prices, and consumers still pay them. My hope is that continued competition from Universal Studios will force Disney to either reduce their prices or provide more value for the money.

The other thing to remember is that you can still get a room in a deluxe for well less than the rack rate. Aside from just flat discounts to the rack rate (which seem to be in effect more often than not), free upgrades to either better rooms within a resort or even a whole resort move are not unheard of. In the end, it doesn't cost Disney much more for you to be staying in a theme park view at the Grand Floridian as it does for you to be staying at All-Star Sports. If their value resorts are full, I imagine that they upgrade people to better resorts to allow for more people to stay on property, which in the end is where they are getting the most of their money.

This was a long time ago (circa 1995?), but my family was going to be staying for two weeks at the Caribbean Beach (which, at the time, I think was the cheapest available). We booked way in advance, and a month or two before we were supposed to call, we got a call from Disney asking us if we wanted to be upgraded, at no cost to us, to the Contemporary. We were told to expect a garden wing room, but when we checked in, they gave us a corner room in the tower overlooking the Magic Kingdom. Not only did they probably get another family to stay on property, but I'm sure that subconsciously (and perhaps a bit consciously) is why, now that I've got my own family, that we are such crazy WDW fanatics.

The problem with discounts...in the case of rooms and also the dining plan for the last 10 years...is that the real goal is to get the price up permanently. So that when they aren't needed, there's more shell shock than at the Somme.

The dining plan was a calculated, obviously executed con job...in my opinion.

Reduced quality And higher prices resulted and are now institutionalized.

And now...after the radiation subsides...
Just maybe now people understand what happened (but most don't).

(Two different world war references in the same post...beat that!)

 

[Andrew015]

Even ranges like that would put them in the collusion penalty box. And that's a very bad place to be.....

I wouldn't consider what I proposed to be "collusion", but can see where one might draw the parallel. What I am suggesting is this: In order to "play" in our (Disney's) sandbox, you (Four Seasons) need to play by "our" rules, and here is the agreement in which the rules are defined.

The Sandbox in which the Four Seasons operates is on Disney-owned property, so depending on how their agreement is written, Disney may very well have some input into things such as pricing. Unless, of course, they are simply sub-leasing the land to Four Seasons for a hefty premium... then of course, that is a different story and what I proposed would, in fact, be collusion.

Certainly, Disney would not have the ability to control pricing of a "free standing" Four Seasons, but the fact that they own the land that the FS operates on, I would think there would be a chance of some control, depending on how their agreement is written. Can someone shed some light onto the type of agreement that Disney has with FS? Does Disney own the land AND the building, or just the land?