"Red Shirt" Vent

[pacrosby]

agian no one is passing judgment, or pointing a finger. I am sorry you feel that way. there would be no discussion without differences of opinion. You are getting offendend when none was meant, and it isn't just me not understanding the anger here. I never said YOUR child had open heatr surgery or that his is why you held him back, but the child i was discussing DID and still managed to go to school on time dispite heart problems that are very limitn and a major surgery just months before starting K. I am simply saying that it CAN be done. Having mediacal issues does not automatically mean a child needs to be redshirted. If anything, in most cases, those children need as normal an experience as possible. Tehy want to do what every other child thier age is doing. I really don't understand where you are getting the idea that anyone is judging you by saying they would or have made different choices for thier children. I for one wish I had the option of sending my DD to K a year before she went, but the rule here is that you MUST be 5 by sept 1 to start, no exceptions. She missed it by 6 weeks and was obviously ready, but Iwas not given an option.

I'm not 'angry'. I'm crazed by the arrogance of some people (and that isn't directed at you, but to be honest, you often do come across as such, whether or not you intend to).

Let's really follow the bouncing ball here ok? You are quoting my posts so you are talking to 'me' right? I mean generally that is how it works here on the boards.

Soooo.....

Why are you quoting my post and then talking about the child who had open heart surgery right before K who still started on time and did well? What does that have to do with what I said? My child didn't even have any OHS's when he was 4. I never connected any kind of surgery with the reason for keeping him out. Why are you quoting my post and then talking aobut how kids can have medical conditions and still start school 'on time'? I certainly never suggested they couldn't or shouldn't. Again, I never used his medical dx as the reason he was being held. What does that have to do with what I have said? You never once said anything to suggest that you believed I "might" have had reasonable cause for my decision. Too busy presenting your examples to the contrary I suppose. You're a teacher and you can't see how someone might feel the passing of judgement? Hmmmmmm

When you quote someone's post you most definately give the impression that you are challenging their words. You didn't just join the mania known as message boards. I assume you are well aware of that.



Again, I really am not angry. But I'm certainly not going to let people comment on my words without retort. Especially in those circumstances when what is being said leaves me scratching my head in confusion. Let's see, I think the one where the poster said I was using my child's medical dx as an EXCUSE to keep him back was one of the more memorable ones; another, when you based an entire post on a misquote LOL; and of course when you suggested that you were just giving examples of how things turned out well for a child in a situation similar to mine who went to school 'on time'.........ummmmmm and what makes that child's situation similar to mine? The mere presence of 'some CHD'????????? All of that on top of expressing a point of view about what YOU would do in another person's rather delicate situation when you don't know the scope of their circumstances is doomed for disasterous results. Honestly, your confusion as to why I might not be giggling my way through our exchange leaves me questioning your ability to consider another's perspective. Of course, that is pretty much the theme here, isn't it?

 

[Leajess99]

And tell me please. Is it really possible that you believe it would've been better to have him in the bottom of the barrel of the second graders, feeling frustrated and overwhelmed by work that was really beyond his capabilities? Being pulled out throughout the day to work with various specialists? Feeling like he's stupid because he can't keep up with his classmates? Looking like a preschooler? Why? For what reason? Just "cuz"? Believe me he's not taking anyone's place on any sports team. He's not skewing the academic expectations of the class. He will never "look" out of place with his grade level peers. Given how well-liked he is, he is not likely to "feel" out of place socially with his grade level peers. So what exactly is the big tragedy here? Besides 'just cuz'?

What's really nutty here though? You know nothing about me or my family. And up 'til now, you've only 'heard' but a few sentences from me about my decision and the general rationale behind it. And yet, oddly, you have sooooo very much to say. So many accusations. So many assumptions. Honestly, proof in is the pudding. My son is not the one who needs the services here.

YOU NEVER GAVE YOUR CHILD THE CHANCE TO SEE IF HE COULD DO IT OR NOT SO ALL YOU ARE DOING IS SPECULATING!!! And what happens if he has to be held back?? Now you have a kid more than 2 years older than those in the appropriate grade. And yes, it does affect kids like my middle child who started school on time with a summer birthday. Your kid is almost 2 years older than she was in that same grade. That is the problem with people like you choosing to red shirt

 

[GinnyEmma]

Good grief. That is worth yelling over. With your definition, every assessment we make of our children is just speculation. Pretty stupid.

If you don't want your kid to be the youngest you had the choice to change it. It is your fault.

 

[Marionnette]

YOU NEVER GAVE YOUR CHILD THE CHANCE TO SEE IF HE COULD DO IT OR NOT SO ALL YOU ARE DOING IS SPECULATING!!! And what happens if he has to be held back?? Now you have a kid more than 2 years older than those in the appropriate grade. And yes, it does affect kids like my middle child who started school on time with a summer birthday. Your kid is almost 2 years older than she was in that same grade. That is the problem with people like you choosing to red shirt

Oh good grief! Everything we mothers do is SPECULATION! Kids dont come with an instruction manual and they dont fit into cookie cutter molds. Who among us is qualified to judge one mother for her decisions? Certainly not I! Please give a rest. You are so over the line with your criticism.

 

[Leajess99]

Good grief. That is worth yelling over. With your definition, every assessment we make of our children is just speculation. Pretty stupid.

If you don't want your kid to be the youngest you had the choice to change it. It is your fault.

Actually, no, I followed what is normal for kids. Oh and my child is and has always been way above grade level to the point of testing above high school level in Math and reading so why would I hold her back because of parents that can't let their babies go?? Funny how following the guidelines for when a child goes to school rather than waiting until the kid is almost 2 years older than other kindergarteners is wrong. Only on the Disboard.

 

[Colleen27]

YOU NEVER GAVE YOUR CHILD THE CHANCE TO SEE IF HE COULD DO IT OR NOT SO ALL YOU ARE DOING IS SPECULATING!!! And what happens if he has to be held back?? Now you have a kid more than 2 years older than those in the appropriate grade. And yes, it does affect kids like my middle child who started school on time with a summer birthday. Your kid is almost 2 years older than she was in that same grade. That is the problem with people like you choosing to red shirt

How? I've asked several times of several posters, because I'm just not seeing how it matters. My middle child has a summer birthday and among the youngest in her grade too, but I fail to see how it matters at all that she has classmates a year or more older than her.

 

[dogluva]

I have a degree in special education, and I disagree. There is a difference between just not being ready, especially due to a medical condition which keeps you out of an educational setting, and having a diagnosed learning disability. If you have a learning disability, your best bet is to be in the public schools ASAP, to receive necessary services (I'm a big fan of EI). However, if a child is behind academically because of a medical condition, or because he or she just isn't ready, he or she will be fine waiting.

I can't believe someone as rude as you appear to be works with children.

Really? How was I rude? Because I don't agree with you? Maybe you think I am someone else? I would love you to tell me how I was rude. Seriously, I think you are rude to even say this to someone you have never met! I have been teaching for 20 years, you don't know anything about me and I am reporting this.

 

[dogluva]

Well it would be 19yo seniors, not 20 unless the kid is both redshirted and retained at some point. And I don't see why that is different in any meaningful way from having 18yo seniors mixed in with 14yo freshmen. It isn't like one year is a huge difference at that age.

Do you even know any 14 year olds or 18 year olds? Because I do and there is a HUGE difference-it is 4 years! Are you serious? I don't want my 14 year old with 18 year olds! Would you let your 14 year old daugther date an 18 year old? I wouldn't and I don't want that opporutnity to arrise either.

 

[mjkacmom]

Really? How was I rude? Because I don't agree with you? Maybe you think I am someone else? I would love you to tell me how I was rude. Seriously, I think you are rude to even say this to someone you have never met! I have been teaching for 20 years, you don't know anything about me and I am reporting this.

Oops - I think I responded to the wrong poster, trying to defend pacrosby from a very rude poster. ETA, I have no problem with my dd14 being in the same class as an 18 year old. Actually, she does have seniors in a class, and being very involved in musical theater, spends hours with older kids and adults.

 

[dogluva]

Oops - I think I responded to the wrong poster, trying to defend pacrosby from a very rude poster. ETA, I have no problem with my dd14 being in the same class as an 18 year old. Actually, she does have seniors in a class, and being very involved in musical theater, spends hours with older kids and adults.

Well I do and I have a right to what I want for MY child, just like others have a right to what they want for theirs, four or fourteen.

I went through this with my son; there were kids almost two years older than him and by the time he hit sixth grade, it was starting to become a problem. How is this fair to him? I think he was exposed to things he should not have been due to his development. However, he was age appropriate for the grade so it was not his fault.

Also, I think you really need to watch what you say to people-an "OOPS" is not an apology. I found your comment disrespectful, especially coming from someone who claims they have a degree in Special education. Do you even use it?

 

[Colleen27]

Do you even know any 14 year olds or 18 year olds? Because I do and there is a HUGE difference-it is 4 years! Are you serious? I don't want my 14 year old with 18 year olds! Would you let your 14 year old daugther date an 18 year old? I wouldn't and I don't want that opporutnity to arrise either.

Yes, I do know kids at both ages. Yes, there is a big difference. Not so much between 18 and 19, which is the only difference redshirting makes.

Having 14yos and 18yos in the same classes and activities is the nature of high school, and I don't think it makes a meaningful difference to change that to 14yos and 19yos. And as far as who my daughters are allowed to date, that'll be handled on a case-by-case basis, though as a general rule I don't intend to allow either of them to do much dating at 14.

I'm curious, do you plan to send your kids to single-sex high schools or forbid them from taking multi-grade classes/activities? Because short of that I can't imagine how you'd shield a 14yo public school student from meeting 18yos of the opposite gender through school. Even if absolutely no one ever redshirted and no students at all were held back for academic reasons that is a normal high school age span.

 

[grafxgirl]

Some of you may remember me from previous threads about "should I start Kindergarten or hold them back", and it is no secret that I am a proponent of sending kids to school rather than holding them back unless there is a developmental reason. Just my opinion, yours may differ.

So this week I am sitting in my son's basketball practice (the 2nd grade clinic) with a mother who is going on and on about how worried she is because her son is so tall and thin compared to the other kids. She even said something about how he was in a play at school and when they all lined up on stage at the end he looked like "an Amazon kid" (her words not mine) compared to the other kids.

I happen to remember this kid, because when he was in our public school he was a grade ahead of my son, but now they are in the same grade. Conversation continues, and I find out that she pulled him out of public school at the end of 2nd grade, and put him in 2nd grade again in the Catholic school because he's her "baby" (an only child) she thought he was "too young". He is an October birthday, my son is November, a year later.

I know I'm a little hyper-sensitive to this because I have a November-birthday son that I sent to school, but she seriously annoyed me. Of course your kid is "so tall" compared to the other kids in the 2nd grade basketball clinic...HE'S A YEAR OLDER THAN THEY ARE!

While I realize that she has the right to do whatever she wants with her child, I reserve the right to be annoyed. I'm annoyed at the fact that now this kid (currently a head taller than everyone else in the group) will be playing sports against kids a year younger than he is, and at the fact that the mother just wouldn't stop about how her son is "so tall".

Just wanted to vent. Thanks for listening.

I'm glad our sports teams aren't determined by grade level, but are determined by age. Our age cut-off for entering Kindergarten is age 5 by Sept 1st. Our state requires children to enter into First grade by the time they are 6 unless their birthday falls after Sept 1st, then it is 7, no later. My daughter's birthday is the 9th of September, so she had to wait until she was turning 6 to go to Kindergarten. Unfortunately, my son is going to go through the same thing because his birthday is the 10th of September. I guess it won't be a bad thing to have him wait that extra year because he is academically ready, but not ready maturity-wise.

 

[MSSANDRA]

Do you even know any 14 year olds or 18 year olds? Because I do and there is a HUGE difference-it is 4 years! Are you serious? I don't want my 14 year old with 18 year olds! Would you let your 14 year old daugther date an 18 year old? I wouldn't and I don't want that opporutnity to arrise either.

But see it works both ways..We have friends who's daughter's b-day was two days before the cut off. They so debated sending her or holding her back. Sent her on and she had a very rough 1st year but the teacher encouraged them to send her on so they did. Fast Forward to HS. She has taken AP classes, been a cheerleader etc and done very well...however, she also is in classes and wants to date guys 3-4 years older than her because she is so young. Parents so regret not waiting that extra year just for that reason and are so dreading her going off the college at 17!!!!

All parenting is speculation to a degree but many of the parents that choose to hold their children back do much more than that. They talk to preschool teachers, they look at testing (our preschool uses ages and stages), they visit the kindergarten and then make the best choice they can make.

 

[grafxgirl]

You're absolutely right. Everyone is allowed to do what they want. In this case that's kind of my problem. This mother I was speaking about in my original post didn't like that our school had a strict rule and wouldn't let her son repeat 2nd grade based on her opinion that he was young. So she changed schools. Is it fair to the kids in the new school that she made that choice? He's already been through the 2nd grade curriculum once, is familiar with it, and now the other kids in the class will be compared to him. That's absolutely not fair to them and gives him an advantage. And that's why parents "care what other people do". Because unless you live in a bubble, chances are that some of your decisions or choices will effect someone other than you.

People have the right to do what they think is best. But if it effects my son - whether it be something silly like not making the basketball team, or something important struggling in school because his class has older kids in it that should be a grade up - I have the right to be annoyed by it.

I am currently working on my Masters in Elementary Education. I think it is horrible for teachers to compare students against one another. The one thing that I have learned through my classes and from the teachers I volunteer with in our school district is that every child is an individual with their own strengths, weaknesses, and learning abilities, and should be treated as an individual instead of being lumped into one big group.

 

[2girlsR2good]

You say there are "several" in the class who are a year older than her. The rest of the class was not redshirted. Therefore, you can't attribute your daughter being behind to a couple of redshirted kids. Also, being one year older doesn't mean those few are one year smarter. They have had the same lessons as your daughter. Age doesn't translate to smartness the way it MAY translate to better athletic ability (by making you bigger). I don't think you can attribute your daughter's experience to redshirted kids. FWIW, I would move her to another school if I was you. Putting a child who is on grade-level back a grade is ridiculous, and speaks to the teacher's lack of ability to teach lessons to children of varying levels and learning styles.

Those are good points. I'm definitely still processing all this--which is what attracted me to this thread. I am starting to realize that we have a teacher/school fit problem more than a kid with any real learning problems. Or even delays. She is physically tiny for her age (she has a metabolic syndrome) and that makes some people see her as younger than she is. I thought her teacher, as a professional, would be able to see beyond that as her kindergarten teachers did. A more progressive school with a differentiated curriculum would be a better fit. That's the kind of school she went to for kindergarten (we moved, otherwise she'd still be there).

You are right--most of the kids are not red-shirted. But there are several who were (and it is a small class, so 5 or 6 out of 18 makes a difference) so the class is skewed older. Or maybe March is the new July, and March kids are now always among the youngest in the class. While older does not equal smarter, in this setting it does mean kids have more skills. I'm still troubled by a 1st grade class doing 2nd grade work and a teacher who doesn't want to teach 1st grade in 1st grade.

Clearly, I need an appointment with the director. Maybe there's something I'm not understanding that does make a difference beyond the skills. Or maybe this teacher is trying to make her life easier by moving my kid. Sigh.

 

[mom2aredhead]

Sheesh -what started out as my rant about a parent at a stupid basketball clinic has gotten awfully heated.

I am going to request however, since it was my thread that was hijacked while I visited family for the holidays, to please keep it respectful. It was getting pretty ugly around here LADIES...

 

[LisaNJ25]

But see it works both ways..We have friends who's daughter's b-day was two days before the cut off. They so debated sending her or holding her back. Sent her on and she had a very rough 1st year but the teacher encouraged them to send her on so they did. Fast Forward to HS. She has taken AP classes, been a cheerleader etc and done very well...however, she also is in classes and wants to date guys 3-4 years older than her because she is so young. Parents so regret not waiting that extra year just for that reason and are so dreading her going off the college at 17!!!!

All parenting is speculation to a degree but many of the parents that choose to hold their children back do much more than that. They talk to preschool teachers, they look at testing (our preschool uses ages and stages), they visit the kindergarten and then make the best choice they can make.

When is your cut off? Ours is 10/1. So the child who went out time should be turning 18 right around when the enter college.. that I have no problem with.

My younger kids have birthdays between 8/19 and 9/1, So they just turned 5 right befor school started and its all day grade K. My K student this year turned 5 the day before school started. It has never crossed my mind to hold any back. I even schedile a c-section on 9/1 incase we moved to a different state with that cutoff date and so I had a september baby. They will all turn 18 right before/around the time they start college.

My oldest son is 18 and a high school senior. I would much prefer it if he were still 17. He started school on time although the cutoff date has changed since he started and if he were to go today he would of missed it.. We ended up holding him back in 3rd grade.

If I decide just to keep him home since he was close to the cutoff and than had to retain him later on the kid would be turning 20 not long after he graduated.

It amazing me about people who keep back becasue if size.. should we push the larger kids ahead?

My 6th grader has a girl in her class the size of my 1st grader.. and I shared a hospital room with her mother. If that woman would of held her child back because of size she would never catch up.


I honestly think a large amout of people are holding back because they dont want to let their children go and more on to the next phase of their lives.

 

[crisi]

Yes, I do know kids at both ages. Yes, there is a big difference. Not so much between 18 and 19, which is the only difference redshirting makes.

Having 14yos and 18yos in the same classes and activities is the nature of high school, and I don't think it makes a meaningful difference to change that to 14yos and 19yos. And as far as who my daughters are allowed to date, that'll be handled on a case-by-case basis, though as a general rule I don't intend to allow either of them to do much dating at 14.

I'm curious, do you plan to send your kids to single-sex high schools or forbid them from taking multi-grade classes/activities? Because short of that I can't imagine how you'd shield a 14yo public school student from meeting 18yos of the opposite gender through school. Even if absolutely no one ever redshirted and no students at all were held back for academic reasons that is a normal high school age span.

I was "young" and I was a sixteen year old high school senior. And that year makes a huge difference. Been there done that, and both my kids are among the oldest in their classes.

 

[herdtoDisney]

No, you are sending your child to school at the best time. I always thought it was best that your child turn 6 in kindergarten, so sending a 5 1/2 year old is best. You don't want kids turning 5 (or just turned 5) during kindergarten, and you don't want kids turning 7. You want 6 year olds in k, 7 year olds in 1st, 8 yo in 2nd, 9 yo in 3rd, 10 yo in 4th, etc- which puts them driving in 10th grade and then graduating and going off in the world at age 18, perfect.

In my state, the cutoff is Dec 31st-you have to be 5 on or by this date to enroll in K. So most kids are 5 or past 4.5 when school starts. The schools are some of the highest ranked in the nation (with the exception of the large cities). No high school I know of here allows 10 graders to drive to school (no parking permit for them) and with the graduated driving law, you're closer to 17 to drive anyway. I actually like that very much, it's safer for our kids.

My oldest ds turned 18 this month. He started college this fall and has done very well and loves it! The time of him being 17 in college went by really fast.

I'm curious what will come of some of these kids who are so much older, what their graduation rates will end up being-if you are an 18yo sophmore or junior, you're not subject to compulsory attendance laws, and at 16 could drop out too, potentially as a freshman. Both my oldest ds and my 14 yo HS freshman ds have mentioned that a few of the older kids in their class were/are 'gone', meaning left school. I don't know if those kids were held back or redshirted or both.

 

[GinnyEmma]

i think that the idea that age equals size, intelligence, or huge advantage are making extreme broadbrush statements. I know tiny 13 year olds and huge (not fat huge) 7 year olds. I know 4 year olds who read, and 8 year olds who are just beginning to read. Schools used to be skill based rather than age based. Then came the change in the system. The middle 80% fit the mold and do great within that system. But the other 20%need an advocate outside the system to get the education they both need and deserve. People have the choices to make to give their child their best chance at life. For most of us it isn't about being the best in a class, but achieving to the best of their abilities. None of my kids are cusp kids. I was an october baby and when we started school in another state I attended K when expected. That made me the oldest in the class here. No biggie. I had friends, etc. Driving early was a hit, lol.

This isn't the traumatic event that people want to make it. Everyone has the choice to work within the system, change the system, change which system, or leave the system.

Blaming others for being a year older is silly. Darn those evil kids! Are there differences between 18 and 19? It depends on the person. I'm rather certain everyone here has met motivated 17 year olds and 22 year olds who refuse to mature... Heck, I have a 13 year old who functions like a 35 year old. That whole nature/nurture thing is crazy. His 11 year old brother's bff is only 9. Bless his heart, he reminds me of Rowley for the DOAWK fans. And the oldest is taking college courses and doing perfectly at 16, the epitome of a first born. They all have friends, they all run track, a great sport for those who don't want the typical team sport.

Parenthood is one W.A.G., you do the best you can, pray you don't permanently damage them, and hopefully send them on their way ready to tackle the world. What seems huge when they are 1 year old, 5 years old, and 10 years old, and what we worried and worried about seems silly now. OMGosh the fretting I've done, and you look back to your friends who made different choices and realize that most have turned out fine and dandy.