"Red Shirt" Vent

[indimom]

i think that the idea that age equals size, intelligence, or huge advantage are making extreme broadbrush statements. I know tiny 13 year olds and huge (not fat huge) 7 year olds. I know 4 year olds who read, and 8 year olds who are just beginning to read. Schools used to be skill based rather than age based. Then came the change in the system. The middle 80% fit the mold and do great within that system. But the other 20%need an advocate outside the system to get the education they both need and deserve. People have the choices to make to give their child their best chance at life. For most of us it isn't about being the best in a class, but achieving to the best of their abilities. None of my kids are cusp kids. I was an october baby and when we started school in another state I attended K when expected. That made me the oldest in the class here. No biggie. I had friends, etc. Driving early was a hit, lol.

This isn't the traumatic event that people want to make it. Everyone has the choice to work within the system, change the system, change which system, or leave the system.

Blaming others for being a year older is silly. Darn those evil kids! Are there differences between 18 and 19? It depends on the person. I'm rather certain everyone here has met motivated 17 year olds and 22 year olds who refuse to mature... Heck, I have a 13 year old who functions like a 35 year old. That whole nature/nurture thing is crazy. His 11 year old brother's bff is only 9. Bless his heart, he reminds me of Rowley for the DOAWK fans. And the oldest is taking college courses and doing perfectly at 16, the epitome of a first born. They all have friends, they all run track, a great sport for those who don't want the typical team sport.

Parenthood is one W.A.G., you do the best you can, pray you don't permanently damage them, and hopefully send them on their way ready to tackle the world. What seems huge when they are 1 year old, 5 years old, and 10 years old, and what we worried and worried about seems silly now. OMGosh the fretting I've done, and you look back to your friends who made different choices and realize that most have turned out fine and dandy.

I agree. Well said.

 

[mjkacmom]

Also, I think you really need to watch what you say to people-an "OOPS" is not an apology. I found your comment disrespectful, especially coming from someone who claims they have a degree in Special education. Do you even use it?

Well, I did get my pediatrician to medicate my ds12 for ADHD without an evaluation (he's textbook, and his teachers do agree - what a difference it has made). And I apoligize, and agree to disagree. I'm very lucky - most of my kids are not close to the cut-off, the one that is happens to excell at school (although she was behind socially, which caused some issued up until 6th grade - GAT and immaturity are not a good mix), but I've witnessed the struggles of some of my friends' children, and it can be heartbreaking. I have a wonderful friend, who has a great ds (friends with mine), and she's cried a lot about how she should've starting him a year later. As parents, we need to make tough choices, and sometimes, we don't make the right ones.

 

[pacrosby]

YOU NEVER GAVE YOUR CHILD THE CHANCE TO SEE IF HE COULD DO IT OR NOT SO ALL YOU ARE DOING IS SPECULATING!!! And what happens if he has to be held back?? Now you have a kid more than 2 years older than those in the appropriate grade. And yes, it does affect kids like my middle child who started school on time with a summer birthday. Your kid is almost 2 years older than she was in that same grade. That is the problem with people like you choosing to red shirt

I'm going to try to respond to this thoughtfully and not get angry. Of course the liklihood that you will stop to carefully read and digest every word of this post is slim to none. Still, at least I know I've tried.

As others have said, every decision we make for our children, in essence, involves some degree of speculation. None of us has a crystal ball.

I made my decision based upon what I KNEW at the time (opposed to your assuming I was wrong based upon what you THINK you know, which happens to be next to nothing).

I KNEW he did not have the ability. KNEW that he wasn't ready. KNEW that sending him would result in significant struggles in the short-term and possible failure in the long-term. (again, things you can't possibly comment on since, you don't even know him)

How did I know? Because at that point I had already had two children go to school (my son is 1 of 4). And of course the fact that I am a former professional who worked in a related field. I know the prerequisites for true success in Kindergarten and beyond. It goes far beyond rote memorization of abc's and 123's. It goes far beyond being able to sit still and follow directions. It goes faaaaaaaar beyond just making the age cut-off. It's called cognitive-linguistic development. Nope, he wasn't ready.

Based upon what we knew to be true up to that point, my instinct told me what he needed was time. And my instinct had not failed me in the past. No reason to doubt it then.

Everything ds did he did at his own pace. Everything. But he did it all on his own. No speech therapy, no occupational therapy, no physical therapy, no developmental therapy. He did it all, independently, when he was READY to do it. So yes I know all about giving children chances. I've always given him the chance to be the child he WAS instead of always handing him over to some specialist so they could try and force him to be the child someone else thought he 'should be'. Despite what many believe, no, you can't 'speed up' a child's development. For years his body focused on basic survival and "development" was put on hold. I understood that. Many decisions we had to make over the years were based on that knowledge. And that instinct...that given the time, it would all come together as it should.

As it turned out I was right.

He has thrived in school. No struggles AT ALL. Moving along with his grade level peers as expected. Socially, according to his teachers, he's a star. He's happy. He's confident. He LOVES school. My instinct was right.

Throwing out 'what ifs' is ludicrous. Your 'what if' didn't come to be. He's not 'all of a sudden' going to crash academically. His performance to date reveals that he is exactly where he is supposed to be.

So, yes, there are a small number of children in his class that, chronologically, he is a full year and 8 months older than. But of course he would have been 8 months older than some of the kids in his class had he gone at 5. One of my other sons is a Sept bday so he is almost a full year ahead of some kids in his class.......and he wasn't held. Taken as a whole my ds in question is really only 1 full year older than the 'average' 1st grader in our town. And a good many of them are within his age by 6-8 months or so.

Of course if we considered his developmental age, things would look quite different.

And of course there is the question that so many have asked? So what of it? All other things being equal how exactly does that effect the equation? Like I said he's not skewing the academic expectations of the class. He's not going to be taking anyone's place on a sport's team. He's not going to be some social menace (he's a very nice, likable, sweet little boy with loads of friends). Developmentally he will likely always be on pace with kids a year younger than him (in ALL areas). What exactly IS the issue here?


Now again, please keep in mind that the law offers parents the choice to wait. I didn't do anything that was wrong. Since here in MA children must be in school no earlier than age 5 (by Sept 1) and no later than age 6, technically he DID start ON TIME. He went to K when he was 6. I didn't have to get special dispensation to have him wait. It was a choice I took; a choice that was offered to you as well. You decided to take the risk that comes with having your child be the youngest. I decided to take the risk that comes with having my child be the oldest. With any decision comes risk. I hoped I was right just like you did. Fortunately, thus far, it appears both of our risks payed off.


Every professional I've spoken with about our decision (cardiologists, pediatricians, school psych, K teacher and now his 1st grade teacher) has told us that they believe giving him the 'gift of time' was perhaps the best thing we ever did.

No, I'm not second guessing my decision because of some stranger's twisted sense of reality. We are quite good thank you.






edited to add: fwiw you are quite welcome to do whatever you want with your kids. As is everyone else. And you have the right to 'feel' however you like about others' decisions. Still don't LIKE what I did? That's your perogative. I'm not looking for your support. Just DON'T sit there and make assumptions and accusations and pass judgement when you don't have all the facts. There is no way you are in a position to know whether my decision, or anyone else's for that matter, was the 'right' one. Nor do you know what you would do if faced with similar circumstances (especially since you can't possibly understand the full scope of those circumstances after a few 'back and forths' on a message board). Hey, I like a spirited discussion as much as the next guy but, really. The nastiness, towards people you don't even know, is unecessary.

 

[pacrosby]

i think that the idea that age equals size, intelligence, or huge advantage are making extreme broadbrush statements. I know tiny 13 year olds and huge (not fat huge) 7 year olds. I know 4 year olds who read, and 8 year olds who are just beginning to read. Schools used to be skill based rather than age based. Then came the change in the system. The middle 80% fit the mold and do great within that system. But the other 20%need an advocate outside the system to get the education they both need and deserve. People have the choices to make to give their child their best chance at life. For most of us it isn't about being the best in a class, but achieving to the best of their abilities. None of my kids are cusp kids. I was an october baby and when we started school in another state I attended K when expected. That made me the oldest in the class here. No biggie. I had friends, etc. Driving early was a hit, lol.

This isn't the traumatic event that people want to make it. Everyone has the choice to work within the system, change the system, change which system, or leave the system.

Blaming others for being a year older is silly. Darn those evil kids! Are there differences between 18 and 19? It depends on the person. I'm rather certain everyone here has met motivated 17 year olds and 22 year olds who refuse to mature... Heck, I have a 13 year old who functions like a 35 year old. That whole nature/nurture thing is crazy. His 11 year old brother's bff is only 9. Bless his heart, he reminds me of Rowley for the DOAWK fans. And the oldest is taking college courses and doing perfectly at 16, the epitome of a first born. They all have friends, they all run track, a great sport for those who don't want the typical team sport.

Parenthood is one W.A.G., you do the best you can, pray you don't permanently damage them, and hopefully send them on their way ready to tackle the world. What seems huge when they are 1 year old, 5 years old, and 10 years old, and what we worried and worried about seems silly now. OMGosh the fretting I've done, and you look back to your friends who made different choices and realize that most have turned out fine and dandy.

I just don't understand how people can read posts like this and simply dismiss them. Too he**bent on being right I guess. Too rigid in their way of thinking.

Thanx for summing it up (although I must ask....what is WAG? LOL)

 

[tinker&belle]

My older DD misses the cutoff by a few weeks. We could push her through (you can try for evaluation and push your kids through if they are within a month of the cutoff). We probably aren't going to; K seems really academic and is full day and she would turn 5 the week school starts. It seems like a lot to ask of a young 5 when she doesn't even make the cutoff.

Younger DD will be tricker. She makes the cutoff by a month. I don't know if we will send her then or not. It really depends. She had a rough first year and had a lot of medical issues. She may have speech issues due to her illness. We will have to wait and see.

 

[tinker&belle]

My older DD misses the cutoff by a few weeks. We could push her through (you can try for evaluation and push your kids through if they are within a month of the cutoff). We probably aren't going to; K seems really academic and is full day and she would turn 5 the week school starts. It seems like a lot to ask of a young 5 when she doesn't even make the cutoff.

Younger DD will be tricker. She makes the cutoff by a month. I don't know if we will send her then or not. It really depends. She had a rough first year and had a lot of medical issues. She may have speech issues due to her illness. We will have to wait and see.

 

[grafxgirl]

Sorry, but I don't have an "agenda" in this at all. I teach HIGH SCHOOL, so it has no bearing on what I do. Everyone here is saying how parents know so much better than teachers and how they are so much more in tune to what their kids need, so why is it so hard to believe that parents have a HUGE impact on a child's success ro lack theerof?? I think the whole "boys can't do it" and "teachers expect too much" bit is really just a big cop out. I don't know of any K teacher that subscribes to the "sit down and shut up" school of teaching. They won't get very far with most kids, boy or girl, that way. Heck, I don't do that in high school. I work HARD to keep my kids interested and engaged. I don't teach more than 30 min at a time without stopping to DO something in 10th grade! In K DD's teacher would teach for about 20 min, with the children participating, and then do an activity of some sort begfire pencil and paper work on the subject. That is much how her 1st grade class is run this year. Most teachers use carefully thought out lessons to meet students where they are. But by the same token it is very difficult to convince a child that learning has value when that is not what they are being taught at home. It is also next to impossible to get a child to make an attempt to succeed in the calssroom when mom and dad believe they are "too young" or "not ready". That mindset seeps down to the child, regardless of wether parents do in consciously or not, and the kid thinks he is not required to make the effort because they "can't". I think it is ridiculous to think that it is all the teacher's fault becuase she is a mean, rigid witch who expects too much of these precious babies. Most teachers do everything they can to reach the children they teach, but they DO need some help from home.

I have to agree with you on this. We are having a very similar conversation on my community's forum about who is responsible for educating our children. There are so many people putting the blame on teachers for not doing it properly. This irritates me so much! Education and a sense of responsibility begin at home with the parents. It is a child's parents who are their first teachers, and should continue to be their biggest supporters, but too many parents these days simply are not doing their part, and are relying on the teachers to do it all. I substitute teach grades K-12, and I have 2 children of my own, and can't tell you how many kids come into school not even knowing how to do basic things like tie shoes, use a zipper, or even button their clothes. Since when did it become a teacher's responsibility to teach those things? It also irritates me to see parents coming into the school to complain about a multitude of things, but not once have they ever set foot in the classroom as a volunteer to see first-hand the inner workings of the classroom.

 

[GinnyEmma]

Lol, it is a parent's primary issue. That is pretty much the whole point some of us are making. A parent knows whether a child is ready or at least a lot better versed in the abilities of their child than arbitrary rule makers.

Btw, speaking ill of children is not nice. Especially from a teacher, ppm. Maybe some of your daughters teachers feel the same about her. She must have some faults, all do. Unless she is a precious perfect snowflake herself. I am so grateful that the teachers we have dealt with show kindness, compassion and a willingness to see the best in their students.

 

[pacrosby]

Well I do and I have a right to what I want for MY child, just like others have a right to what they want for theirs, four or fourteen.

I went through this with my son; there were kids almost two years older than him and by the time he hit sixth grade, it was starting to become a problem. How is this fair to him? I think he was exposed to things he should not have been due to his development. However, he was age appropriate for the grade so it was not his fault.

Believe it or not I can understand where you are coming from given your personal experience. Was your child bullied by these older children? Were they involved in drugs or sex or something and you associate that with them being 'older' and feel they were a negative influence on your son? If so, ok, that is terrible BUT assuming it was solely attributable to their age is a bit of a stretch. Bullies often start bullying early on. And even kids of the exact same age come in a wide variety of shapes and sizes. I've heard stories about elementary aged kids knowing far too much about drugs and drinking and sex. Often times it's because of them having older siblings or, simply, questionable parental involvement. Blaming it on the fact that those kids were "too old" to be in the 6th grade? I don't know. We really shouldn't be taking isolated situations and using them to make sweeping generalizations anyway.

I guess overall I'm alittle bit confused about those who are concerned about the age-mixing. Don't your kids hang with other kids in the neighborhood/at the rec center/on sports teams etc. who are older AND younger than them? Don't they hang with cousins who are older/younger than they? Talking older kids, when they get a job, don't they work alongside other kids who are older/younger than they? In some ways, school being a controlled environment, you have less to worry about in your kids' classroom than you do anywhere/everywhere else in this world. Personally, I think people's anxieties are grossly misdirected.

And I just have to add.....I find it interesting so many saying "you don't care about my kid, you only care about your own" when talking to parents who have decided to use the latter end of the cut-off. I mean, really, couldn't the same be said about those who want them in there by 5 (hot, cold, dead or alive as my father would say LOL)? People have essentially told me "too bad" if my child wasn't ready. "Too bad" if he may have needed a host of special services to keep up. "Too bad" if he ended up feeling frustrated and overwhelmed. "Too bad" if he needed to be kept back later on. I mean those people obviously couldn't care less about my child, right? All they care about is the remote possiblity that "somewhere" along the line he "might" create some "unknown" problem for their child simply due to his age (which if they took the time to 'listen' would realize was hardly likely).

Let's face it, when it comes to all of us, our top priority is our own kid. And while yes we shouldn't be selfish when making our decisions we shouldn't expect others to be selfless either.

 

[GinnyEmma]

Well said. There is no proof out there that having these horrid older kids cause an issue for the students in the norm. Or are people suggesting that their kids within the norm are a harmful influence on those that start young?

Geesh.

 

[pacrosby]

Well said. There I no proof put there that having these horrid older fuss causes an issue for the students in the norm. Or are people suggesting their kids that their kids within the norm are a harmful influence on those that start young?

Geesh.

What???????

You type like I think

 

[GinnyEmma]

What???????

You type like I think

Stupid telephone!

 

[princessmom29]

Lol, it is a parent's primary issue. That is pretty much the whole point some of us are making. A parent knows whether a child is ready or at least a lot better versed in the abilities of their child than arbitrary rule makers.

Btw, speaking ill of children is not nice. Especially from a teacher, ppm. Maybe some of your daughters teachers feel the same about her. She must have some faults, all do. Unless she is a precious perfect snowflake herself. I am so grateful that the teachers we have dealt with show kindness, compassion and a willingness to see the best in their students.

I have a huge problem with this. Since when is pointing out and correcting correcting poor behavior in a child "not nice"? I think too many people are too willing to overlook poor behavior in children becuase it is just easier. It is part of my job as parent and as a teacher. I also feel it is my job to correct behavor of any child left in my care, to the extent that they not be allowed to hurt themselves or others or be obscenely rude or direspectful. I would never point out or correct anything in another child that i would not do with my own. When DD does something I don't like, believe me, she knows what she has done and why it is unacceptable. Of course my DD has faults, everyone does, I am aware of these, and so are her teachers. She has had perfect marks for conudct at shool thus far however, so she cannot be that much of a monster! Of course a teacher tries to seethe best in her students, but she must also have a true pictures of a student's issues, motivations, and limtations in order to be able to help them. Looking at a child through rose colored glasses and excusing their poor behavior and what I like to call "general lack of give a poop" does nothing to help them. I would not want a teacher who was willing to completely overlook DD's faults and not call her on something done wrong. If you don't fix it, how will they ever know it is wrong?? I would much prefer to have ateacher who will take the time to talk to her about why what she did was wrong, and how to make better choices in the future.

 

[GinnyEmma]

There is nothing in your posts that sounds helpful at all. Teachers that are good see the best in their student and work to draw that out, rather than witching and moaning about crappy parents etc. There are always behaviors that need to be worked with and skills that they née help with. That us half if what teaching is all about.

What I find offensive is the snarl in your writing, specifically about the little cheerleaders lacking the energy and motivation to work for an hour. Do you work out he way you should? How does an obese person fuss about kids when she herself does not do what us best for herself? I don't get it. Your tendency to look down on others is offensive. Luckily, this forum offers ignore. I see enough of the crappy with the kids I work with. I will choose to ignore that some teachers out there choose to pile in more rather than make the world better.

 

[MarriedToAPrince]

I can understand cut-offs, but making him repeat the second grade because he is her "baby"?? That to me is wrong and unfair to the child. If the child was held back, that is one thing, but to purposely put him in another school and hold him back? Not right.

 

[design_mom]

I can understand cut-offs, but making him repeat the second grade because he is her "baby"?? That to me is wrong and unfair to the child. If the child was held back, that is one thing, but to purposely put him in another school and hold him back? Not right.

I totally agree that it would be wrong and unfair to hold a child back because the parent won't let him/her grow up.

However, I seriously doubt that the mother in the OP did that. The OP's info was second-hand (at best)... and it quite frankly sounds like nasty gossip that probably glosses over the "real reasons."

I don't think decisions to retain a child are made willy-nilly... nor are decisions on when to start. I do not know ANY parents who have started their children late because they couldn't bear to let go of their babies, nor for sports reasons. There are always multiple reasons and it's a decision most parents struggle with, I think. Everyone is trying to do the best that they can.

My DS's birthday is 2 days before the cut-off and after much consideration, we decided to hold him till the next year. He's in 4th grade now and I am still happy with the decision. DD's birthday is 5 months before the cut off, so we really didn't feel we had a decision to make. We sent her "on time." I really do think she could have benefitted from an extra year at home/in preschool. She seems to be a "late bloomer" all the way around.

 

[dogluva]

I have a huge problem with this. Since when is pointing out and correcting correcting poor behavior in a child "not nice"? I think too many people are too willing to overlook poor behavior in children becuase it is just easier. It is part of my job as parent and as a teacher. I also feel it is my job to correct behavor of any child left in my care, to the extent that they not be allowed to hurt themselves or others or be obscenely rude or direspectful. I would never point out or correct anything in another child that i would not do with my own. When DD does something I don't like, believe me, she knows what she has done and why it is unacceptable. Of course my DD has faults, everyone does, I am aware of these, and so are her teachers. She has had perfect marks for conudct at shool thus far however, so she cannot be that much of a monster! Of course a teacher tries to seethe best in her students, but she must also have a true pictures of a student's issues, motivations, and limtations in order to be able to help them. Looking at a child through rose colored glasses and excusing their poor behavior and what I like to call "general lack of give a poop" does nothing to help them. I would not want a teacher who was willing to completely overlook DD's faults and not call her on something done wrong. If you don't fix it, how will they ever know it is wrong?? I would much prefer to have ateacher who will take the time to talk to her about why what she did was wrong, and how to make better choices in the future.

I agree. I try to treat students the exact way I would want teachers to treat my own children. That means being respectful and kind, as well as making sure their behaviors are corrected (again, in a respectful way). I get paid to teach them so I take my role very seriously. I also know that my job is very, very important and how fortunate I am to have this postion which influences so many lives. I always remember that the children I am dealing with are someone's child that loves them and wants the best for them. I also hope that my own children's teachers feel the same (been very lucky so far!).

By the way, I too, have seen too many teachers who are tired and choose to just "look the other way" when they see bad behavior. It is easier in some ways. Then others have to deal with it. I don't let things go, it can be exhausting but that is my JOB. Anyway, sorry to rant but I totally agree with this.

 

[Ashlotte]

Redshirting is almost all the time in affluent areas and it is about a parent just having a 'feeling ' (made up or just expressed as a reason to hold back without specifying anything specific) that the child is not ready - which, due to the fact that this child's parent HAS been involved and that child likely was already in a good preschool program - it is likely not the case. The redshirted child is, in most cases, ready - but the parent doesn't want them to be the youngest....wants them to be more mature....wants to give them an edge...wants them to be bigger for sports. This is the underlying problem.

This is the case of the people I know. My friend wanted to hold her son back and do kindergarten again because she felt he "wasn't ready," even though he was reading above grade level and was on target in math as well. I am pretty sure her reasoning was about being competetive and wanting him to be the top of the class, rather than average or slightly above.

 

[Ashlotte]

My son is the opposite of your DS's friend - off the charts in math and the sciences, excellent oral comprehension, but struggled with reading and writing (and in K, they don't even test for specific learning disabilities absent developmental delays because "it is too soon" - but not too soon to start holding kids back for it He was dx'd dyslexic at 8)

Did the school explain why it is "too soon" to diagnose a child with a learning diablity in kindergarten? The reason is because the child has to show that he/she is reading at a level that is inconsistent with their intelligence level (i.e. average/above average intelligence, but reading below average), and to do that, the child must be reading below grade level. It takes a year or two of formal schooling for the "behind grade level" to develop, since many of the kids starting kindergarten are not yet strong readers. I'm not sure how your district does it, but the schools I have taught in test children several times a year to see if they are meeting benchmarks. Those that aren't are flagged for additional reading services. Some students in those services catch up and move out of the service, some don't. Those that don't are then testing for learning disabilities. Even at that point, not all kids get an LD label- only those that have a discrepency between IQ and ability. Some kids are low readers, but they have a low IQ, so they are reading at an appropriate level for their intellegence.

 

[Ashlotte]

A child is not guaranteed a starting spot on any team just because he is eleven month older, regardless of age.QUOTE]

Actually, in "Freakonomics" (or it might be in "Super Freakonomics") there was some statistic about professional soccer players being born around the same month and that month happened to put them among the oldest in their grades.