"Red Shirt" Vent

[jewelmicky]

The "experts" all say it pretty much all evens out by 4th grade...1/2 day K, start early or late, by 4th grade most of the kids have caught up and are on par with their peers. The ones slow at this point usually will continue to have a harder road.

My DD8 has a late August Bday....she is the 2nd to youngest in her class, size wise upper middle. I can't imagine holding her back...one of her best friends Bday is early September, so she a whole year older. They seem very compatible....it all depends on the child. I have a late October Bday and started K at 4......I started college at 17....the only thing that bothered me was that my friends could all drive way before I could.

I think the difference is more pronounced in boys then girls. Girls tend to develop (hormones) earlier then boys and are all done by late high school. I had a male friend in high school that didn't get his growth spurt until 12th grade. He went from 5'4" to over 6 feet in the one school year. But, because it came so late, his dream of playing basketball for high school was shot.

 

[mrsr2ro]

I see a lot of people say this and it must be a regional thing, becuase as long as our school system has offered K, about 50 years, it has ALWAYS been full day 8-3 just like every other grade. I don't know of any place inthe area that has ever offered a half day K. Some private schools offer 1 class of half day K, but that is the extent of half day K in our area.

Half day is still alive and well in the midwest. I went half day in the Chicago area 30 years ago -- and my nephews who still live there went half day about 3 years ago. 9-11:30 - so just 2 1/2 hours. Same with Ohio where my other nephew lives. Here in Texas, it's all day - my son went 7:45 to 3. When I compare what he was doing in all day K with my nephews I was shocked -- but they seem to be thriving and doing just fine as they have progressed into the elemantary grades, so I agree it evens out.

Also last year in K he had a classmate with a mid Aug b-day (cut off was Sept 1) - so he turned 5 just before school started. The boy had only done short mothers day out programs - no official preschool. He really struggled in K and he is now repeating it this year as a 6yo. My DS (late June bday) went to full day PreK4 so he had no trouble in K. The mother feels that if her DS would have done the PreK4 he would have done fine.

What I find so interesting is the wide variety out there -- both of what is expected in K and the cut off dates. My 3rd child is a late Oct b-day -- so she will be held back due to the 9/1 cut off - but is interesting to know that in another state, she would be sent, or if I held her back - a redshirt.

I think people have to take this variety into account while debating this topic.

 

[pacrosby]

I honestly feel sorry for the kids and teachers in half day Kinder. They try to cram so much in so little time that it can be overwhelming for some kids. In the class I was a TA in, there were a couple of kids that would get so frustrated as they never had enough time to complete their assignments and they were not playing around. They were just slower kids as in they took a lot of time to get things done. The one mom was frustrated as well because her child loved learning but was hating school. I never saw that in my older 2s classes. That school district has even gone to full day kindergarten and we left there 8 years ago.

I'm not so sure most half-days cram any more into their day. Rather I think most full-days just add alot of 'extra' (including rest times, lunch time, another recess, increased time with specials like PE/art/music/computer etc)'. I know that at least in our district there's no need to feel sorry for the kids. All three of my kids have had 1/2 Kindergarten and it was a wonderful introduction to school. Plus having a half day allowed them plenty of time to be kids. They'd come home from school, have lunch, and then run straight outside to play. Not everyone thinks that's important but I do. Even at the ripe old age of 5/6, playing IS learning.

So, have my poor half-day Kindergarten kids suffered academically? Honestly, it doesn't appear so. All three are doing great. My oldest is in 5th grade and is an excellent (and very avid) reader. My 3rd grader is a whiz at math. The first grader? Well, it's only been 6 mos since he was out of K so can't say too much but he's thriving. Loves to learn. All three of them love to learn.

Heck, I went to 1/2 day Kindergarten and ended up with a Master's degree. Didn't appear to hold me back any LOL

I don't know, I haven't seen any real solid evidence that full day Kindergarten improves performance OVER THE LONG RUN for most kids. It may get them 'there' faster but, by 3rd or 4th grade, they are all pretty much where they would be, half-day or full day. The clear exception to that of course would be in those communities where children are deemed at risk. In those communities full-day has in fact been shown to help close the gap. For the rest, I'm not aware of any significant inarguable long-term advantages.

Bottom line is it's really the quality not the quantity of the instruction and factors such as home life, motivation, and educational opportunities AFTER Kindergarten are much more predictive of later success than the length of one's Kindergarten day.

Of course we're getting alittle off topic here. LOL

 

[Leajess99]

I'm not so sure most half-days cram any more into their day. Rather I think most full-days just add alot of 'extra' (including rest times, lunch time, another recess, increased time with specials like PE/art/music/computer etc)'. I know that at least in our district there's no need to feel sorry for the kids. All three of my kids have had 1/2 Kindergarten and it was a wonderful introduction to school. Plus having a half day allowed them plenty of time to be kids. They'd come home from school, have lunch, and then run straight outside to play. Not everyone thinks that's important but I do. Even at the ripe old age of 5/6, playing IS learning.

So, have my poor half-day Kindergarten kids suffered academically? Honestly, it doesn't appear so. All three are doing great. My oldest is in 5th grade and is an excellent (and very avid) reader. My 3rd grader is a whiz at math. The first grader? Well, it's only been 6 mos since he was out of K so can't say too much but he's thriving. Loves to learn. All three of them love to learn.

Heck, I went to 1/2 day Kindergarten and ended up with a Master's degree. Didn't appear to hold me back any LOL

I don't know, I haven't seen any real solid evidence that full day Kindergarten improves performance OVER THE LONG RUN for most kids. It may get them 'there' faster but, by 3rd or 4th grade, they are all pretty much where they would be, half-day or full day. The clear exception to that of course would be in those communities where children are deemed at risk. In those communities full-day has in fact been shown to help close the gap. For the rest, I'm not aware of any significant inarguable long-term advantages.

Bottom line is it's really the quality not the quantity of the instruction and factors such as home life, motivation, and educational opportunities AFTER Kindergarten are much more predictive of later success than the length of one's Kindergarten day.

Of course we're getting alittle off topic here. LOL

I'm sorry but the half day program I was in (now it is full day and has been for several years) had all the extras like PE, Art, Music, etc as well as snacks and whatnot. I never said kids suffered academically like you are trying to imply. I said some kids got very frustrated and started hating school because they lacked the time they needed as the program was more rushed.

My kids all did full day and my oldest has always tested high in Science and Math (he hates math too). My middle one is truely gifted and always one of the youngest if not the youngest. My youngest is also in the gifted and Talented program and excels in Math, Spelling, and reading even though she is only in 2nd grade. She is actually bored and has completed all the sight words for her grade level and then some. Just because a child attends full day or half day does not necessarily matter but I, personally, hate half day and it is based on my experience with the two different programs. There are pros and cons to both but I like that full day gives the opportunity to not make some kids feel so rushed. Full day tends to allot more time to cover the material.


ETA: I do agree about the quality and not necessarily the quanity as well as the home life. You know it is really sad when in some areas the courts have to threaten parents with punishment if they do not attend Parent Teacher conferences. I could never imagine not being involved in my children's education. We have always been a family big on education and take so many learning trips.

 

[pacrosby]

I'm sorry but the half day program I was in (now it is full day and has been for several years) had all the extras like PE, Art, Music, etc as well as snacks and whatnot. I never said kids suffered academically like you are trying to imply. I said some kids got very frustrated and started hating school because they lacked the time they needed as the program was more rushed.

My kids all did full day and my oldest has always tested high in Science and Math (he hates math too). My middle one is truely gifted and always one of the youngest if not the youngest. My youngest is also in the gifted and Talented program and excels in Math, Spelling, and reading even though she is only in 2nd grade. She is actually bored and has completed all the sight words for her grade level and then some. Just because a child attends full day or half day does not necessarily matter but I, personally, hate half day and it is based on my experience with the two different programs. There are pros and cons to both but I like that full day gives the opportunity to not make some kids feel so rushed. Full day tends to allot more time to cover the material.


ETA: I do agree about the quality and not necessarily the quanity as well as the home life. You know it is really sad when in some areas the courts have to threaten parents with punishment if they do not attend Parent Teacher conferences. I could never imagine not being involved in my children's education. We have always been a family big on education and take so many learning trips.

I know we didn't get off to a great start but I really wasn't trying to imply that YOU were trying to imply anything. Just saying that there's no need to 'feel sorry' for kids who go half-day. As far as my commenting on how half-day kids may/may not fare academically. Well, that was just a related thought. Many in favor of full-day will indeed say that half-days are "not enough" thus implying that those who go half-day are suffering academically.

You are right that half-day programs also offer PE/art/music (ours doesn't offer computer in K but I know others do) I just meant that full-day programs often increase the amount of time the kids spend in those specials; as well as an 'extra' recess and lunch and often times an opportunity for a 'rest'. I just meant to point out that it's not like full-day kids are getting an additional 3 hours of academics like some like to imply (not YOU, not even necessarily anyone involved in this discussion, just some pro full-day K folks).

I will agree that full-day allows more time to cover the academic material (i.e. maybe 45 minutes of language arts now becomes 90 minutes) and how for some kids that is a real benefit (from both ends of the spectrum; those who 'need' the extra exposure to master the material and those who 'crave' the extra exposure simply for increased stimulation). I also understand why many parents want it/prefer it. Just glad, where I live, I'm not forced to abide by a policy that goes against my personal philosophy.



As far as parents being threatened by the courts for not going to Parent Teacher conferences......really? Where? I've never heard of such a thing. Not that I have anything to say in defense of a parent choosing not to attend but, getting the courts involved? Hmmmmmm I'm gonna have to think about that one LOL

 

[Leajess99]

I know we didn't get off to a great start but I really wasn't trying to imply that YOU were trying to imply anything. Just saying that there's no need to 'feel sorry' for kids who go half-day. As far as my commenting on how half-day kids may/may not fare academically. Well, that was just a related thought. Many in favor of full-day will indeed say that half-days are "not enough" thus implying that those who go half-day are suffering academically.

You are right that half-day programs also offer PE/art/music (ours doesn't offer computer in K but I know others do) I just meant that full-day programs often increase the amount of time the kids spend in those specials; as well as an 'extra' recess and lunch and often times an opportunity for a 'rest'. I just meant to point out that it's not like full-day kids are getting an additional 3 hours of academics like some like to imply (not YOU, not even necessarily anyone involved in this discussion, just some pro full-day K folks).

I will agree that full-day allows more time to cover the academic material (i.e. maybe 45 minutes of language arts now becomes 90 minutes) and how for some kids that is a real benefit (from both ends of the spectrum; those who 'need' the extra exposure to master the material and those who 'crave' the extra exposure simply for increased stimulation). I also understand why many parents want it/prefer it. Just glad, where I live, I'm not forced to abide by a policy that goes against my personal philosophy.



As far as parents being threatened by the courts for not going to Parent Teacher conferences......really? Where? I've never heard of such a thing. Not that I have anything to say in defense of a parent choosing not to attend but, getting the courts involved? Hmmmmmm I'm gonna have to think about that one LOL

I'm sorry as well as I may have misread your post.

As far as the parents being threatened, I had seen that online not too long ago. Here is the story from October and it is from Michigan - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/21/kym-worthy-jail-time-for-parents_n_772060.html. It is sad that some parents choose not to be involved.

 

[GinnyEmma]

Unfortunately you can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink. We routinely made pt conferences a part of tx plans but it only helped those who really wanted help.

As far as feeling bad for half dayer's that is amusing! Mine all learned what was needed in the am and spent the afternoons playing in the sunshine, napping, painting, cooking, reading... They never lacked.

 

[pacrosby]

As far as the parents being threatened, I had seen that online not too long ago. Here is the story from October and it is from Michigan - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/21/kym-worthy-jail-time-for-parents_n_772060.html. It is sad that some parents choose not to be involved.

Wow. Oh brother, Big Brother (I stole that one LOL)

While it I agree that it is very sad that some people have children but don't seem to want to be a parent, jail time? I think the first comment under the story said it best (it was a brilliant retort).

I'm willing to place a bet it doesn't ever see the light of day. Thanx for the link.