Boy Scouts to allow girls

[Geoff_M]

I wonder why the Eagle Scout ranking is more recognized than the Gold ranking?

Probably due to numbers. Per the GSUSA there have been "approximately 1 million" Gold Awards earned since 1916, where was the BSA stated that the number of Eagle Scout ranks awarded have been close to 2.5 million. So your odds of knowing someone who has earned the rank of Eagle is a lot higher. It may also be due to better marketing and publicity by the BSA.

 

[BLAZEY]

My daughter's Brownie pack is very STEM oriented as the Leader (Brown owl is an Astronomer by profession)

As is the Boy Scouts of America.

To understand things, you need to understand the early history of boy scouting in the USA. After Scouting became popular in the UK, where it was founded, a number of competing scouting programs cropped up in the US in the 1900's. Not only was there the Boy Scouts of America, there was also the American Boy Scouts (which was backed by William Randolph Hearst), the US Boy Scouts, the Boy Scout Navy, the Rhode Island Boy Scouts, and other such organizations. There was a struggle for legitimacy that took place among the rival organizations that famously included an attempt to divert (same say "kidnap") the founder of Scouting, Sir Robert Baden-Powell, from going to a BSA public diner held in BP's honor to a rival event of the ABS when he arrived in the US for a visit. In a matter of years, and after well publicized scandals involving ABS leaders pocketing funds donated to their organization, the feuding ended when Congress granted the BSA a charter (effectively making them incorporated by the US government) and granting exclusive use of the term "Boy Scout." The GSUSA and the Red Cross are other examples of organizations with Congressional charters. The WOSM will only recognize one organization per country as a member organization, and they picked the BSA as the "boy" organization in the US.

I'm not educated as to the history of the GSUSA, but they developed on a separate path of their own. I'm not sure when, but at some point the BSA and GSUSA signed a memorandum of understanding that neither organization would offer a program for members of the opposite sex under the age of 14. It has operated under that agreement since then. I don't know about the GSUSA, but in 1969 the BSA allowed girls to join their older-scout (age 14 to 21) "Explorer" program.

The move that the BSA just announced has been hinted at for several months now. Not surprisingly, the GSUSA, has been openly hostile to the idea from the get go. The national leader of the GSUSA sent the head of the BSA a blistering letter in August.

As noted, the US is one of the few countries where the boy and girl scouting programs don't roll up in to one parent organization. What this move means for the GSUSA isn't fully clear, but isn't not hard to see it as an effort to siphon off members to add numbers to the BSA balance sheet. While the BSA has seen a significant drop in membership, they are still in a much better position that their GSUSA counterparts. The GSUSA also has a major problem with pension liabilities to retired workers.

Did Girls Scouts of America not also start as a result of Lord Baden Powell's Scouting Rally in 1909 when girls showed up wanting to join too, and Lord Baden-Powell had his sister, Agnes start a parallel organization for the girls which was later taken over by his wife Lady Olave Baden-Powell? Girl Guides started in Canada in 1910, and was coast to coast by 1912.

 

[Geoff_M]

My daughter's Brownie pack is very SEM oriented as the Leader (Brown owl is an Astronomer by profession)


Did Girls Scouts of America not also start as a result of Lord Baden Powell's Scouting Rally in 1909 when girls showed up wanting to join too, and Lord Baden-Powell had his sister, Agnes start a parallel organization for the girls which was later taken over by his wife Lady Olave Baden-Powell? Girl Guides started in Canada in 1910, and was coast to coast by 1912.

Yes, the GSUSA traces it's linage back to BP too. He oversaw the founding of the Girl Guides in 1910, a year after the rally. Juliette Gordon Low founded what became the GSUSA in 1912 after meeting with BP in 1911. The key here is that the BSA and GSUSA have always been separate organizations that appeared at somewhat different points in the timeline.

 

[Hikergirl]

Is there a huge difference in what the boy scouts and girl scouts do that this is needed for girls?

My friend's kids have all been in girls scouts and they are a very active troop. Her one dd is going for her gold award.
Based on all the things they have done through the years I'm just wondering what the BSA will offer to girls that is different than what they get from GSUSA.

 

[BLAZEY]

Yes, the GSUSA traces it's linage back to BP too. He oversaw the founding of the Girl Guides in 1910, a year after the rally. Juliette Gordon Low founded what became the GSUSA in 1912 after meeting with BP in 1911.

I remember going to a Hands Across the Border event where Girl Guides and Scouts from Canada and Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts from the US met at the Peace Arch crossing in Surrey BC/ Blaine Washington and we shook hands and traded patches with scouts from the other country. It was one of my favourite memories, Unity through Scouting.

 

[Geoff_M]

I remember going to a Hands Across the Border event where Girl Guides and Scouts from Canada and Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts met at the Peace Arch crossing in Blaine Washington and we shock hands and traded patches with scouts from the other country. It was one of my favourite memories, Unity through Scouting.

I visited the 1983 World Jamboree in Alberta, Canada as well as the BSA National Jamborees in 1977, 1981, and 1989... and was a participant in the 1993, 1997, 2001, 2005, and 2010 NJs. One of the coolest aspects of those events is meeting other Scouts from around the World. In addition to being an Eagle Scout, and Silver Beaver, I also earned my Woodbadge. Woodbadge is another global Scouting program for adult Scout leaders. I've also had the pleasure of visiting Gilwell outside of London where BP started the WB courses.

There is one common visible symbol that is worn on every uniform across the globe for every Scouting movement that is a member of the WOSM... The World Crest:

 

[georgina]

I wonder - is membership in Boy Scouts dwindling, is this a response to that? I had a DS in Boy Scouts and 2 DDs in Girl Scouts; the Boy Scout program seemed much more regimented and ordered, the Girls one really depended on the leader.

 

[ZephyrHawk]

I was a girl scouts, and I respect girl scouts. But I have to admit that, back when I was a girl scout, I would have preferred to have been a boy scout. They actually did stuff. Like, in the woods. And built things. And....okay, I'm not really sure what they did, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't cooking and makeovers and selling cookies. Clearly, some other people's troops did more than that, but not mine!

As the mother of a DD, I wish there were just "Scouts". Inclusive.

 

[CarolAnn856]

There seem to be some misunderstandings by several posters.

Cub Scout dens will not be mixed gender. Packs can have both boy and girl dens, but the dens themselves will not be mixed.

Likewise, Boy Scouts will also remain for boys only. There will be a new program that will be just for girls, and it will follow the programming already in place to allow girls to earn the Eagle rank.

If anyone is upset at the thought of boys and girls not having the benefits of single-gender groups, they can rest easy.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Just to keep everyone fired up today:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/11/us/boy-scouts-girls.html

The group said that, beginning in 2018, girls will be allowed into its Cub Scout program, which had been limited to boys in the first through fifth grades or between the ages of 7 and 10.

A separate program for older girls will be announced next year and is expected to be available in 2019.

The Girl Scouts are not pleased:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...o-increase-membership/?utm_term=.c0393ba710ae

ETA my own opionion: As a 12 year Girl Scout and now a Girl Scout leader, I see incredibly value in an all-girl environment. As the mom of an 8 year old boy (who tried boy scouts for a few months and hated it) I also see incredible value in an all-boy environment. I think it's a shame the boy scouts are doing this. But I think the Girl Scouts need to chillax a little. Do their thing, own who they are, and don't worry about the rest.

The girl scouts should just recruit boys. They'd put the boy scouts out of business. What red blooded American Teenage boy wouldn't want to go to the girl scout camp!! Heck. We all snuck across the lake and did anyway. I mean err um. We were working on our canoeing skills. We just happened to go by the Girl Scout Camp and what a coincidence, we were out of view from the leaders at both camps!!! Not that we did anything other than hang out. Get your minds out of the gutter if you think otherwise.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

I was a girl scouts, and I respect girl scouts. But I have to admit that, back when I was a girl scout, I would have preferred to have been a boy scout. They actually did stuff. Like, in the woods. And built things. And....okay, I'm not really sure what they did, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't cooking and makeovers and selling cookies. Clearly, some other people's troops did more than that, but not mine!
As the mother of a DD, I wish there were just "Scouts". Inclusive.

We did mostly camping. We indeed all had to cook except for some troops at summer camp. So we did indeed do cooking. We did basic wilderness survival. By the way what I learned in wilderness survival? Keep something on you to start a fire with at all times. All those methods they show you have one thing in common. They don't work except under ideal conditions. HAHA. We learned map and compass skills. We did some water activities like rowing, canoeing, swimming. During the year when not camping we did the book merit badges. You know all those boring ones required that none of us liked. We didn't do makeovers (never saw girl scouts do those either) We actually did do some sewing. Just emergency type stuff with needle and thread. Nothing like with a machine or anything. I was the only qualified lifeguard in our troop so I always had to do that if we went swimming where there were no lifeguards. We didn't sell any cookies or any other product door to door. But we did have a huge pancake breakfast every year. And when we went on a trip we of course all had to chip in.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

I wonder - is membership in Boy Scouts dwindling, is this a response to that? I had a DS in Boy Scouts and 2 DDs in Girl Scouts; the Boy Scout program seemed much more regimented and ordered, the Girls one really depended on the leader.

The boy scouts lost a million members between 03 and 15 which was about 1/3 of its membership. Even when I was a scout, as kids started getting older, sometimes they'd just find other things they wanted to do. But I think that has gotten even more so now. Camping and the like itself has gotten less popular too. The Girl Scouts also lost about a million members over the same time period.

 

[BLAZEY]

There seem to be some misunderstandings by several posters.

Cub Scout dens will not be mixed gender. Packs can have both boy and girl dens, but the dens themselves will not be mixed.

Likewise, Boy Scouts will also remain for boys only. There will be a new program that will be just for girls, and it will follow the programming already in place to allow girls to earn the Eagle rank.

If anyone is upset at the thought of boys and girls not having the benefits of single-gender groups, they can rest easy.

This is not the case in Canada, Scouts Canada the troops ARE mixed or co-ed. Girl Guides is still female only. The only scouts in Canada that are boy only just haven't had a girl sign up.

 

[Geoff_M]

There seem to be some misunderstandings by several posters.

Cub Scout dens will not be mixed gender. Packs can have both boy and girl dens, but the dens themselves will not be mixed.

Likewise, Boy Scouts will also remain for boys only. There will be a new program that will be just for girls, and it will follow the programming already in place to allow girls to earn the Eagle rank.

If anyone is upset at the thought of boys and girls not having the benefits of single-gender groups, they can rest easy.

I don't believe that the part of your post that I bolded is entirely known just yet. Here's the exact wording of the BSA announcement:

Starting in the 2018 program year, families can choose to sign up their sons and daughters for Cub Scouts. Existing packs may choose to establish a new girl pack, establish a pack that consists of girl dens and boy dens or remain an all-boy pack. Cub Scout dens will be single-gender — all boys or all girls. Using the same curriculum as the Boy Scouts program, the organization will also deliver a program for older girls, which will be announced in 2018 and projected to be available in 2019, that will enable them to earn the Eagle Scout rank. This unique approach allows the organization to maintain the integrity of the single gender model while also meeting the needs of today’s families.

They appear to not worked out all of the details of how the Boy Scout program will be rolled out to girls. It's not clear that the last sentence applies to all types of units or just the announced changes to the Cub program. I have a hard time seeing them offer co-ed Cub Packs, go to single-sex Boy Scout Troops, and then move back to co-ed Venture Crews. There's only three years between the joining age of a Scout Troop and a Venture Crew. Perhaps they will extend the Cub model and have Patrols be single-sex.

 

[Geoff_M]

The boy scouts lost a million members between 03 and 15 which was about 1/3 of its membership. Even when I was a scout, as kids started getting older, sometimes they'd just find other things they wanted to do. But I think that has gotten even more so now. Camping and the like itself has gotten less popular too. The Girl Scouts also lost about a million members over the same time period.

As of now, the GSUSA has a membership of around 1.8 million compared to the BSA's of about 2.8 million. Like you said, the BSA has also suffered a decline in modern times. However, the BSA is likely to suffer a significant drop in membership very soon as a result of The Church of Latter Day Saints announcement this May that starting in 2018 they are dumping Boy Scouts as the official youth program for older youth in their churches. The LDS church is a single largest sponsor of Scout units and now have over 330,000 youth in BSA units. Though both sides deny it, the move is likely a reaction to recent policy changes in the BSA regarding gays and transgender members. After the BSA bowed to a lawsuit and agreed to allow gay leaders in 2015, the LDS reacted that they were "troubled" by the move and that they would need to re-evaluate their connection to the BSA. To date, there hasn't been any rush of new members that have joined the BSA as a response to the "progressive" policy changes that they have made in a effort to respond to its critics.

 

[CarolAnn856]

I don't believe that the part of your post that I bolded is entirely known just yet. Here's the exact wording of the BSA announcement:They appear to not worked out all of the details of how the Boy Scout program will be rolled out to girls. It's not clear that the last sentence applies to all types of units or just the announced chances to the Cub program. I have a hard time seeing them offer co-ed Cub Packs, go to single-sex Boy Scout Troops, and then move back to co-ed Venture Crews. There's only three years between the joining age of a Scout Troop and a Venture Crew. Perhaps they will extend the Cub model and have Patrols be single-sex.

Fair point...the wording is certainly open to interpretation.

 

[kadydid]

I wonder - is membership in Boy Scouts dwindling, is this a response to that?

It's been in the news that the LDS church has a new program that will take away from the later Boy scout programs. (they still do cub scouts and 8-13 boy scouts) So that might be part of it

 

[Colleen27]

(Note: clearly the Girl Scouts have no interest in going coed, so this really is about losing the boy-only opportunity for those boys that want it.)

Except that it isn't. The announcement said that while packs have the option of going co-ed (which sounds to me like code for "we're kicking the decision down to locals who mostly oppose change"), dens will either be all-boy or all-girl. I suspect that will make this a meaningless move on several levels, because there will undoubtedly be packs that decline the option of going co-ed (our local leadership has already indicated they will be among them and someone I know who is involved with a BSA camp has indicated they "aren't equipped" for hosting co-ed or female groups) and for those that do, it'll still take enough girls and leaders to form a den before they can actually join. It isn't like the one girl who would rather be doing what the boys are doing will just be able to sign up and join their den.

I wonder how this will differ from the Venture Scout program which already allows girls? Maybe they are adding something for the 10-14 year old set?

I have boys in scouts. I am very hesitant to think this is a good thing. I can see it being a nightmare for the scoutmasters as far as planning campouts and such. Not to mention the hormones at those ages. I agree with the other posters, there are so few boy only activities especially in that age range.

I think it'll differ from Venturing in that it will allow girls to advance and earn higher ranks.

As far as the nightmare for scoutmasters, isn't Venturing usually co-ed? So are 4H programs that offer overnight outdoors experiences, and church youth groups, and many summer camps, and school overnights. Somehow they all manage. I think BSA will too.

However, I wonder... is the Eagle Scout recognition that the Boy Scouts offer the main reason some girls want in the Boy Scouts?

That's the main advantage I see. The GSA gold award just isn't as recognized or respected as the BSA Eagle Scout rank, and this will allow girls to earn that rank.

I was a girl scouts, and I respect girl scouts. But I have to admit that, back when I was a girl scout, I would have preferred to have been a boy scout. They actually did stuff. Like, in the woods. And built things. And....okay, I'm not really sure what they did, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't cooking and makeovers and selling cookies. Clearly, some other people's troops did more than that, but not mine!

As the mother of a DD, I wish there were just "Scouts". Inclusive.

Girl Scouts is only as good as the troop leadership. When I was a kid, we did things. In the woods. And built things. But our leaders were outdoors types who facilitated and even pushed those activities, and there was more emphasis on them in the badge books back then. My daughter's experience with scouting was very different. The troop was "girl led", which meant doing a lot of things that were well within the comfort zone of elem and middle school girls (cooking and makeovers and learning Photoshop and making duct tape purses), and the leaders didn't push them to stretch beyond that. And the new badge structure is much more creativity-and-careers oriented than outdoorsy or active, so while there are a lot of badges for self-care and crafting and exploring STEM, there's not much for a kid who wants to climb trees, shoot bows, and build campfires. If DD had the choice to join BSA back then I'm sure she would have; instead she quit scouting and we ended up a 4H family (which is also wonderful in its own way) in a club with an "adventure" group that goes primitive camping and rock climbing and caving and all those things that Girl Scouts weren't doing.

 

[VandVsmama]

Bias alert:
I can't stand the Girl Scouts organization. What I'm about to say is full of emotion and the following is not meant in a negative way toward anyone whose children participate in Girl Scouts. I'm glad that there are families who truly enjoy it.

I have no problem with BSA opening up their scouting organization to both genders. Reaching Eagle Scout actually means something. You actually develop useful skills.

Girl Scouts are a joke. I was a Girl Scout for many years as a kid. And had ODD in it briefly in elementary school. Big mistake. It did not work out very well for us. A close friend had her 2 DDs in Girl Scouts for many years and she was even a troop leader for much of that time. Nothing but drama between all of the GS moms. So much focus was on cookie sales. Badge activities were useless stuff like making a placemat and other dumb arts & crafts. What a previous poster said about the quality of the GS troop totally being based on the troop leader is totally true. Close Friend was the Cookie Mom for several years in a row. Tons of work and standing outside in all sorts of weather at grocery stores for 2 months' worth of weekends in a row to sell cookies. Bleh.

When I was in GS, we'd work like dogs to sell as many cookies as possible in order to go on ONE camping trip at the end of the school year...and that camping trip was just 1 overnight. ONE. The camping trip was a ton of fun. But all of the high pressure to sell sell sell? No thanks.

BSA will very likely lose membership from the LDS church members who will soon join their own organization's scouting groups. GS has lost membership as well for various reasons that I won't go into here.

The way I see it is now there's just 1 additional option for kids of both genders if they're interested in scouting. and if your kid isn't into scouting, that's fine, too. There are a plethora of other extracurricular fun activities to join and participate in.

 

[Planogirl]

I was a girl scout for a few years and didn't care much for it. I would have hated it if boys were there though. I didn't like boys at certain ages. Our camping trips would have been interesting too.