Autism lawsuits to continue on appeal

[Lilsia]

Oh my gosh, really?????

As I have said, I was simply explaining what someone else wrote.

What I believe? I believe that way too many people receive the DAS and it is close to becoming what the GAC was.

It doesn't take but a google search to find a "script" of what to say and presto, you get one.

it will take a while, look at how long the GAC was a problem, and Disney will be changing their system again.

I don't think DAS will be as bad at GAC was just because of how it is set up. The people returning for that ride is so much more spread out since they are given a time to come back. Not like when everyone with GAC just went to the most popular rides and went on them over and over.

 

[lanejudy]

GAC had other problems besides just people riding back-to-back-to-back. In fact, I would say the majority of GAC-holders did not use it in that manner. That’s not to say looping wasn’t one problem that was resolved with the change from GAC to DAS. The GAC program was unsustainable due to the sheer number of guests using a GAC. As I recall, CMs rarely checked the stamp, just saw the card.

 

[DisneyOma]

Oh my gosh, really?????

As I have said, I was simply explaining what someone else wrote.

What I believe? I believe that way too many people receive the DAS and it is close to becoming what the GAC was.

It doesn't take but a google search to find a "script" of what to say and presto, you get one.

it will take a while, look at how long the GAC was a problem, and Disney will be changing their system again.

I get that part, but it was your multiple re-explanations that made it seem like you were realigning with the idea.

 

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

I get that part, but it was your multiple re-explanations that made it seem like you were realigning with the idea.

Just because I can explain what someone means, doesn't mean that I agree with them. Regardless of how well I might be able to do it.

 

[DisneyOma]

Just because I can explain what someone means, doesn't mean that I agree with them. Regardless of how well I might be able to do it.

I guess it was the way you explained that was confusing - it just didn't sound like you were explaining what someone else meant.

Back to topic - so many news sites are reporting it has to do with non-disabled abuse, when we've pretty much shown here on this thread that's not true. But I guess it makes for a better story? this Foxnews site (taken with two grains of salt) states that the plaintiffs want a 15 minute or less wait all the time.

https://www.foxnews.com/travel/30-l...y-resorts-from-autistic-visitors-move-forward

 

[Lilsia]

states that the plaintiffs want a 15 minute or less wait all the time.

I, too would love to go back to September 1995 where nothing was more then a 15 minute wait.

 

[Hoodie]

I guess it was the way you explained that was confusing - it just didn't sound like you were explaining what someone else meant.

Back to topic - so many news sites are reporting it has to do with non-disabled abuse, when we've pretty much shown here on this thread that's not true. But I guess it makes for a better story? this Foxnews site (taken with two grains of salt) states that the plaintiffs want a 15 minute or less wait all the time.

https://www.foxnews.com/travel/30-l...y-resorts-from-autistic-visitors-move-forward

I think that's based on approximate fastpass times. The plaintiffs want immediate access to the fast pass line, not given a return time.

 

[SueM in MN]

I guess it was the way you explained that was confusing - it just didn't sound like you were explaining what someone else meant.

Back to topic - so many news sites are reporting it has to do with non-disabled abuse, when we've pretty much shown here on this thread that's not true. But I guess it makes for a better story? this Foxnews site (taken with two grains of salt) states that the plaintiffs want a 15 minute or less wait all the time.

https://www.foxnews.com/travel/30-l...y-resorts-from-autistic-visitors-move-forward

The guaranteed 15 minutes or less wait time is what they have asked for in their lawsuit.

I think that's based on approximate fastpass times. The plaintiffs want immediate access to the fast pass line, not given a return time.

That is correct, they are asking for immediate, unlimited access to the Fastpass line and different, more immediate access if there is no Fastpass line or if it is backed up.

 

[ladyjubilee]

So, I'm the parent of a child on the severe end of the spectrum....and I agree with the appeal's court reasoning in overturn the lower court on "necessary modification". To me, it seems Disney's response is kind of like the responses on the thread. Several folks have mentioned that DAS works for their family...and a lot of those folks have also mentioned their kids are on the high end of the spectrum. Disney's answer is pretty much "it works for people with ASD" and if people would just plan, or take head phones, it'd work for them too, especially since kids ride in cars and planes.

However, just like on this thread, it seems that Disney is suggesting a standard in which all ASD people are the same---and should all be accommodated to level of high functioning ASD folks. But there is a wide gulf of need and response from ASD people---to the point, my aggressive, severe kid handles amusement parks FAR better than some very high functioning ASD peers we know. It is wonderful that some people with ASD can learn the manners of waiting in the line for a bouncy castle. However, some ASD folks become so fixated on being "in" the castle, they will walk over whatever is in their way or whoever, because nothing else exists. My kid isn't one of them. He is on he more impacted side, but he can wait---as long people don't crowd him, and he's not having to go backward to go forward (switchbacks) and its only a little time (less than 30 minutes). I know families that must literally have a 24/7 eyes on rotation of caregivers...for ASD people. No two ASD people are the same, any more than everyone with MD is same or MS is the same.

I agree with the court; so far, Disney has not shown DAS satisfies the "necessary modification" as their answer boils down to DAS works for [an admittedly large] subset of people with ASD.....but I don't feel they've yet shown it is accommodation that works for the plaintiffs. Incidentally, I would also take issue with Disney's expert who compared waiting in line for a ride with riding in a car. 1)The Disney and the expert have assumed riding in a car with a severely impacted ASD child is the same as with other children. My strong suspicion is that Disney's lawyers and expert have never had their hair pulled, been clawed or bitten while driving. And I did notice that none of the accommodations parents of severe ASD kids have to use were discussed. I didn't see any discussion of barriers or locked harnesses or seating arrangements. 2) The sensory impact of riding in a car (is it vestibular input? I know is one of the motion inputs) is calming, as is the restrain pressure of the harness/seat belt, which air conditioned. Totally not like being squished into a chaotic, hot line. I would have thought a good Behaviorist or Occupational Therapist would have been more qualified to speak to the question instead of neuropsychiatrist.

Finally, it seemed the appeals court left the door open to question the real work impact of the accommodation request on park operations. Disney said 3% of attendees were given GAC, and with that 30% of the riders on one ride were using GAC. But that argument seems flawed. GAC was for just all needs--mobility to needing shade to wait times. DAS is not used for all those needs. There is no reason that the accommodation that these folks are requesting would be needed by that same 3%. In fact, as has been shown on this thread MOST people are well accommodated with either mobility access, DAS or stroller as wheelchair. Sooo, of that 3%, we're talking, what 2%? I suck at math, how many people is 2% of 3%? I know in my county the 2% is served in 3 schools that have less that 60 students each. The most severe of severe.....and more specifically, the portion of the 2% of 3% who have been to Disney enough to have developed a pattern.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Sooo, of that 3%, we're talking, what 2%? I suck at math, how many people is 2% of 3%?

0.06%. Doesn't sound like much, but in 2016, Magic Kingdom alone had about 20,400,000 visitors (https://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/os-bz-disney-attendance-down-20170601-story.html). That's over 3,000 autism spectrum visitors per day. Each attraction has an hourly and daily capacity. I don't have The Unofficial Guide handy, but the information is in it. If you have a low capacity, slow loading ride that a number of DAS holders and their parties need to loop, that unreasonably and negatively affects hundreds or 1 thousands of other visitors.

Nobody is entitled to a WDW trip, or any vacation. Nobody is entitled to, or owed, a customized visit to a theme park.

I know in my county the 2% is served in 3 that have less that 60 students each. The most severe of severe.....and more specifically, the portion of the 2% of 3% who have been to Disney enough to have developed a pattern

one county out of over 3,000 is in no way representative of the population.

 

[DisneyOma]

ladyjubilee, thank you for your thoughtful post. Disney, not any other private company, does not have to accommodate everyone to the fullest though. That's what the second ruling got wrong, IMO.

 

[Hoodie]

ladyjubilee, thank you for your thoughtful post. Disney, not any other private company, does not have to accommodate everyone to the fullest though. That's what the second ruling got wrong, IMO.

They need to make "reasonable accommodations" which they have done and the burden is now on the plaintiffs to prove that the additional accommodations they want will not be a burden on regular park visitors. It may not seem like a lot of people are impacted, but when you start talking about one person and their party granted something like repeat rides, you could theoretically be looking at displacing upwards of 80-100 people per hour on any given ride (party of 4, ride of 2-3 minutes, repeating) per accommodation. Unfortunately the world can't accommodate individuals, all it can do is help ease the burden. It can't erase it entirely.

 

[Mika02]

Let's stop a second, and take a breath - and more importantly, let's assume positive intent on the part of *everyone* involved.

As the parent of a disabled child, I can tell you - from 24 years of experience - that when your child is "different", you have to parent differently. No matter what anyone says. The reality is, that child has needs that are outside the "norm" and as their parent, you will have to try and meet those needs. In my case, I had one (bio) child (I'm blessed to have several "extra" kids who I love like my own, and who spend holidays with us, and who call us their family) and so I never had the opportunity to parent a "normal" or "regular" kid through childhood. I don't know what that looks like, or how it works. BUT, ask me anything about finding a car seat to fit a newborn infant with bilateral leg casts (hips to toes) or how to introduce your child - and her wheelchair - to her kindergarten class. Ask me about how to keep a suitcase packed for the *next* trip to the Shriner's Hospital - because we never, in her first 18 years, went more than 6 weeks between trips. Ask me about how to comfort a teenage girl who believed that no boy would ever love her because she was in a wheelchair. My experiences as a mother have been profoundly different from most other moms - and that's OK, because I know the truth... that "Normal" is just a setting on the washing machine.

It's NOT OK to assume that a parent that is trying to advocate for their child is simply being stubborn or selfish or unreasonable. They may not know, or be able to see, that their request is considered by the majority to be extreme; they only know that for the entire life of their child, they have had to advocate for everything. And so that is what they do. Is it "right"? Is it "fair"? That's not for us to judge. Instead, let's try to remember that they are trying to give their child the best possible experience they can. For their children, that means being able to ride the same ride over and over. The children that they are advocating for don't know that their parents are acting outside the bounds of "normalcy" when they ask for these special accommodations - they only know that they want to ride the ride again. You don't have to agree with their request of Disney, but at least try to understand *why* those parents are asking for these accommodations to be granted.

Let's all try to discuss this without casting aspersions on people we don't personally know. None of us wish to be judged unfairly by anyone - especially someone who doesn't know us, and doesn't know our entire story. And let's give that same grace to all of the parties involved in this legal action.

As a parent of a child with sensory issues and an aunt to a nephew with Down syndrome. There are definitely times advocating for your child is an absolute necessity. That said there is also over indulgence that can happen with any disability my nephew likes to watch the same shows over and over and eat lots and lots. My son likes to say the words to shows and movies over and over and twirl markers while making swishing sounds in his classrooms. Unfortunately they can't do these things all day everyday because it can be unhealthy even though it calms them and makes them comfortable and happy because they love it and it's what they want. Sometimes as a parent you have to say no even with a disabled child.

 

[OurBigTrip]

So, I'm the parent of a child on the severe end of the spectrum....and I agree with the appeal's court reasoning in overturn the lower court on "necessary modification". To me, it seems Disney's response is kind of like the responses on the thread. Several folks have mentioned that DAS works for their family...and a lot of those folks have also mentioned their kids are on the high end of the spectrum. Disney's answer is pretty much "it works for people with ASD" and if people would just plan, or take head phones, it'd work for them too, especially since kids ride in cars and planes.

However, just like on this thread, it seems that Disney is suggesting a standard in which all ASD people are the same---and should all be accommodated to level of high functioning ASD folks. But there is a wide gulf of need and response from ASD people---to the point, my aggressive, severe kid handles amusement parks FAR better than some very high functioning ASD peers we know. It is wonderful that some people with ASD can learn the manners of waiting in the line for a bouncy castle. However, some ASD folks become so fixated on being "in" the castle, they will walk over whatever is in their way or whoever, because nothing else exists. My kid isn't one of them. He is on he more impacted side, but he can wait---as long people don't crowd him, and he's not having to go backward to go forward (switchbacks) and its only a little time (less than 30 minutes). I know families that must literally have a 24/7 eyes on rotation of caregivers...for ASD people. No two ASD people are the same, any more than everyone with MD is same or MS is the same.

I agree with the court; so far, Disney has not shown DAS satisfies the "necessary modification" as their answer boils down to DAS works for [an admittedly large] subset of people with ASD.....but I don't feel they've yet shown it is accommodation that works for the plaintiffs. Incidentally, I would also take issue with Disney's expert who compared waiting in line for a ride with riding in a car. 1)The Disney and the expert have assumed riding in a car with a severely impacted ASD child is the same as with other children. My strong suspicion is that Disney's lawyers and expert have never had their hair pulled, been clawed or bitten while driving. And I did notice that none of the accommodations parents of severe ASD kids have to use were discussed. I didn't see any discussion of barriers or locked harnesses or seating arrangements. 2) The sensory impact of riding in a car (is it vestibular input? I know is one of the motion inputs) is calming, as is the restrain pressure of the harness/seat belt, which air conditioned. Totally not like being squished into a chaotic, hot line. I would have thought a good Behaviorist or Occupational Therapist would have been more qualified to speak to the question instead of neuropsychiatrist.

Finally, it seemed the appeals court left the door open to question the real work impact of the accommodation request on park operations. Disney said 3% of attendees were given GAC, and with that 30% of the riders on one ride were using GAC. But that argument seems flawed. GAC was for just all needs--mobility to needing shade to wait times. DAS is not used for all those needs. There is no reason that the accommodation that these folks are requesting would be needed by that same 3%. In fact, as has been shown on this thread MOST people are well accommodated with either mobility access, DAS or stroller as wheelchair. Sooo, of that 3%, we're talking, what 2%? I suck at math, how many people is 2% of 3%? I know in my county the 2% is served in 3 schools that have less that 60 students each. The most severe of severe.....and more specifically, the portion of the 2% of 3% who have been to Disney enough to have developed a pattern.

I call baloney on all of this.

It's really quite simple...no one - disabled, not disabled, or somewhere in between - NEEDS to get on a ride in 15 minutes or less. They may WANT to, but they don't NEED to.
No one - disabled, not disabled, or somewhere in between - NEEDS to ride the same ride over and over. They may WANT to, but they don't NEED to.

This is, IMO, much less about the autistic children than it is about the entitled, woe-is-me, martyrdom seeking parents..."Look at me, look how hard my life is". They need to climb down off the cross and stop acting like the world owes them something because they have a disabled child.

"It's not as easy as it used to be"...yeah, well welcome to the world that the rest of us have always lived in at Disney - waiting our turn.
"It's exhausting"...yeah, well welcome to the world that the rest of us have always lived in at Disney - being tired from the walking and the waiting our turn.
"We can only stay in the park for a few hours"...yeah, well welcome to the world of that the rest of us who have ever taken a toddler or an exhausted child to the park has lived in.


The ADA isn't there to satisfy wants, it's not there to make access easier, it's not there to keep people from getting tired, and it's not there to ensure that a family with an autistic child can do in three hours what it takes everyone else 8-10 hours to do. Anyone that can't access Disney unless they have a guaranteed 15 minute or less wait or unless they can ride the same ride over and over while others wait hours, then Disney isn't for them. The ADA doesn't require preferred accommodations, it requires accommodations that make the park accessible. And if an unlimited FP isn't accessible enough, then Disney isn't for them.

 

[sweetpeama]

Looking at a park that was designed from the ground up for people with disabilities called Morgan's Wonderland located in San Antonio, TX this is what their disabled pass allows

• The Joy Fast Pass wristband allows a special-needs guest and up to three (3) additional guests to utilize specially designated entrance at the Wonderland Express train ride, Off-Road Adventure ride, carousel and Whirling Wonder Ferris wheel to avoid a lengthy wait in line.
• The Joy Fast Pass provides one ride per attraction and cannot be used for multiple rides on the same attraction. After the special-needs guest accesses each of the park’s rides at least once, then he or she is invited to ride again as many times as they desire, however entry will be gained through the regular queue of park guests.
• The Joy Fast Pass is available in the Welcome Center.

If a theme park that was designed from the ground up with people with disabilities in mind https://www.morganswonderland.com/visit-us/frequently-asked-questions does not allow unlimited front of line repeated access than why should Disney, Universal, Six Flags, Cedar City, Silver Dollar City, Sea World, Busch Gardens, and any of the rest of them to include any small county fair in rural Eastern Montana that has a single ride or for that matter even the local 4-H club or FFA chapter running a petting zoo or selling individual packages of frozen treats for a donation have to provide unlimited front of line access.

Before anyone starts in on all the rest of the list starting with Universal are not part of the lawsuit. What happens down the road if Disney has to provide front of the line unlimited access to anyone who says their kid needs it. This is just my opinion but it is going to set a standard that could reach all the way to a local county fair even in places like rural MT (Rosebud pop 9,248, Dawson pop 8,950, Fallon pop 3,009, Treasure pop 679, Musselshell pop 4,639, Garfield pop 1,293 or Phillips pop 4,119 are examples of small counties in MT that this could effect).

Why are these families not going after places like Morgan's Wonderland other than they might not have heard of the place I am thinking it is because Disney is such a big name that if they get automatic repeated front of line access at Disney than when they state they want it at any other park or a small rural MT county fair people are going to roll over and say here go right on a head and would you like for me to have food and drink for you so while we are loading other passengers you can have something (too bad they can't do anything about that bathroom need though).

While getting to go to Disney is nice it is not a need for anyone. Would I like for my kids to get to go on another trip to Disney after all they are almost 14 and just turned 11 and haven't been since the oldest just turned 5 (we flew down the day before her 5th birthday) so they have little to no memories of the trip other than pictures. Of course I would but it is not a need. What they need is a roof over their heads, clothes on their backs, food in their bellies, parents who love them tons, skills to make them decent people for others to be around and that includes a willingness to help even if it's in a little way. It might be my almost 14 year old watching the small children of a couple who are both out fighting a fire as volunteers so that they can be there for someone else and my 11 year old who has multiple special needs taking an extra turn feeding the cats and helping with setting and clearing the table so that can be done). But since there are those who seem to think that kids need a trip to Disney please feel free to have them message me through here and I will gladly send them my paypal address so that they can help fund a trip for my kids. Yes folks I am being sarcastic just thought I would point that out since there is not an official sarcasm font or even appropriate style to use such as you underline book titles but poems, newspaper and magazine articles are in italics as in Montana ranchers continue to rebuild after devastating Lodgepole Complex fire article in the Fence post Aug 18, 2017

 

[Disneylvr]

Reminding again, it was never “front of the line” access. GAC and DAS were/are both end of the Fast Pass line access. GAC without the wait outside the line and DAS with the standby line time minus 10 minutes wait outside the line queue.

 

[Lilsia]

Reminding again, it was never “front of the line” access. GAC and DAS were/are both end of the Fast Pass line access. GAC without the wait outside the line and DAS with the standby line time minus 10 minutes wait outside the line queue.

GAC was around long before fastpass. Disney did not institute the FP system until late 1999. And even though it was not intended to be FOTL access, we all know that that is what it ended up being when people got to the ride. Many people have posted this with either personal experience or with seeing it happen. That is the whole reason why those people are suing, because they want that back.

 

[Disneylvr]

GAC was around long before fastpass. Disney did not institute the FP system until late 1999. And even though it was not intended to be FOTL access, we all know that that is what it ended up being when people got to the ride. Many people have posted this with either personal experience or with seeing it happen. That is the whole reason why those people are suing, because they want that back.

We used the GAC from 2006-2013 (with alternate entrance stamp) and never received “front of the line” access. End of the FP line and occasionally the line for guests with mobility devices. Neither were immediate boarding, but generally were shorter or less crowded. Not always. I remember 30-40 minutes waits at Splash Mountain at the wheelchair (alternate) entrance.
Our daughter is presently almost 16 years old. All of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit are 20 + years old and pre-FP park guests? Why did they wait until 2014 to file if they want pre-1999 FOTL access?
I am not a supporter of the lawsuit but trying to figure out why “front of the line” access keeps getting mentioned in this thread and in news stories about this lawsuit. Is that truly the access the plaintiffs are trying to get OR do they want the 2012 version of the GAC back?

 

[kaytieeldr]

"The lawsuit claims that the autistic visitors bringing the suit endured virtual and physical waits, some leading to "meltdowns", despite Disney's current system of allowing visitors with disabilities to make "appointment times" to get on rides and go to the front of the line if the wait is less than 15 minutes. " and "The lawsuit has a suggested resolution similar to the 2013 program with a pass allowing them to automatically skip lines entirely."

https://comicbook.com/2018/08/21/disney-sued-autism-lawsuits-can-go-forward/

 

[Lauren in NC]

There was some speculation about wanting FP line access and waiting no more than 15 minutes, but part of my fascination with the case is that the plaintiffs haven't been very specific on what exactly they want Disney to do.

Disneylvr - completely anecdotal, but I was on a trip to WDW back in 2008-ish and sprained my ankle toward the end, so I had about 2 days in a wheelchair. It equated to basically "walking on" a lot of the rides in MK when wait times were generally 15-20 minutes. I somehow doubt that would be possible any longer even without the DAS changes!