Autism lawsuits to continue on appeal

[marcyleecorgan]

This is probably not-so-classy ...... but this appeal process is taking so long! However will the complainants be able to WAIT that long?!?!

 

[ttintagel]

The case of Radiator Springs always annoys me a little, because the ride was built so recently that they had the opportunity to make the queue a lot more accessible and mainstreamed than it is, and for whatever reason they chose not to. And then they acted all surprised when people seeking alternate access became an untenable problem right out of the gate. I know that's not the only issue at play here; it's just a particular pet peeve of mine.


And if there really was as much use of the GAC by people who didn't really need it, on the scale they claim, I think Disney has to accept *some* of the blame for that instead of painting themselves as the innocent, irreproachable victims of greedy, unscrupulous, scheming guests. The guests weren't going behind the counter and getting the GAC's for themselves - it was Disney employees handing them out without first asking the right questions about the guests’ needs. Or reacting appropriately to the answers.


As it stands now, Disney's position is that if your stamina- or mobility-related need can be met with an assistive device then you don't need the DAS. They could have been training their CM's and leads at Guest Services to stick by this policy many years earlier than they did. If they had, they wouldn't have ended up with the overuse problem because CM's wouldn't have been handing them out like candy at Halloween.


On another point - my mind keeps going back to the boy I read about who had been completely non-verbal until he rode a certain Disney attraction. (May have been Snow White's Adventures? I can't remember exactly, and Uncle Google is failing me.) Riding it repeatedly did for him what years of therapy hadn't been able to do. I don't know. I don't begrudge Make-a-Wish kids their Genie Passes, and I wouldn't begrudge it if there were some kind of program that kids with extreme but non-fatal conditions could get into if it would have that profound an effect on their well-being. It would have to be as carefully managed as Make-a-Wish is, and since I can see where it could be considered superior access it would require medical documentation. I don't know; maybe that would still be enough kids to disrupt regular operations; I don't have the numbers and might not understand them if I did. I'm just not convinced it's a completely black-and-white question.

 

[EastYorkDisneyFan]

T

The case of Radiator Springs always annoys me a little, because the ride was built so recently that they had the opportunity to make the queue a lot more accessible and mainstreamed than it is, and for whatever reason they chose not to.

The queue for Indiana Jones in Disneyland was built so that everyone could access it but people that were used to being able to go through the exit to get on rides for the disabled access complained about it plus they added FastPass which made the front part of the line much smaller than it was originally built

 

[DisneyOma]

The case of Radiator Springs always annoys me a little, because the ride was built so recently that they had the opportunity to make the queue a lot more accessible and mainstreamed than it is, and for whatever reason they chose not to. And then they acted all surprised when people seeking alternate access became an untenable problem right out of the gate. I know that's not the only issue at play here; it's just a particular pet peeve of mine.


And if there really was as much use of the GAC by people who didn't really need it, on the scale they claim, I think Disney has to accept *some* of the blame for that instead of painting themselves as the innocent, irreproachable victims of greedy, unscrupulous, scheming guests. The guests weren't going behind the counter and getting the GAC's for themselves - it was Disney employees handing them out without first asking the right questions about the guests’ needs. Or reacting appropriately to the answers.


As it stands now, Disney's position is that if your stamina- or mobility-related need can be met with an assistive device then you don't need the DAS. They could have been training their CM's and leads at Guest Services to stick by this policy many years earlier than they did. If they had, they wouldn't have ended up with the overuse problem because CM's wouldn't have been handing them out like candy at Halloween.


On another point - my mind keeps going back to the boy I read about who had been completely non-verbal until he rode a certain Disney attraction. (May have been Snow White's Adventures? I can't remember exactly, and Uncle Google is failing me.) Riding it repeatedly did for him what years of therapy hadn't been able to do. I don't know. I don't begrudge Make-a-Wish kids their Genie Passes, and I wouldn't begrudge it if there were some kind of program that kids with extreme but non-fatal conditions could get into if it would have that profound an effect on their well-being. It would have to be as carefully managed as Make-a-Wish is, and since I can see where it could be considered superior access it would require medical documentation. I don't know; maybe that would still be enough kids to disrupt regular operations; I don't have the numbers and might not understand them if I did. I'm just not convinced it's a completely black-and-white question.

I believe that while the queue was accessible to mobility devices, it was not accessible to those who had issues with the time it took to wait. How do you make an accessible queue for those who just can't handle 2-3 hours in a queue?

The request for DAS is the same as the request for a certain GAC stamp. It had to do with the waiting, not the actual queue access.

And now that Snow White's Scary Adventure no longer exists, then what? We can't keep all attractions because it was the time one person talked for the first time. Anecdotal evidence has to be used carefully, KWIM? What does the kid saying his first word have to do with the DAS/GAC issue?

 

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

And now that Snow White's Scary Adventure no longer exists, then what? We can't keep all attractions because it was the time one person talked for the first time. Anecdotal evidence has to be used carefully, KWIM? What does the kid saying his first word have to do with the DAS/GAC issue?

I believe it was less the actual ride and more the fact that they child could ride over and over without a wait.

And, at least what I got from the post, was that if it helps just one child to finally speak, we should allow children that want to, to ride over and over. In case one of them has a breakthrough.

 

[DisneyOma]

I believe it was less the actual ride and more the fact that they child could ride over and over without a wait.

And, at least what I got from the post, was that if it helps just one child to finally speak, we should allow children that want to, to ride over and over. In case one of them has a breakthrough.

That would be impossible to do though.

 

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

That would be impossible to do though.

What I should have said, was those that have a doctor's note.

And if Disney is giving special access they can say that the only way to get it is with a note.

I don't agree with what the poster said. Just explaining what I got from it.

I rarely agree with anything that starts with "if it helps just one" or if it saves just one.' If we lived our lives that way, we would never get into a car or ride in an airplane.

 

[DisneyOma]

What I should have said, was those that have a doctor's note.

And if Disney is giving special access they can say that they only way to get it is with a note.

I don't agree with what the poster said. Just explaining what I got from it.

I rarely agree with anything that starts with "if it helps just one" or if it saves just one.' If we lived our lives that way, we would never get into a car or ride in an airplane.

Thanks for the clarification!

I believe these parents pursuing this lawsuit love their kids. I believe they want their kids to be happy. But I really believe they are so tied up in the immediate, in the instant, in the moment, that they are not looking down the road. And having worked 15+ years with families just like these, I know how hard it is, how hard it is to move beyond the now, when the now is so overwhelming. I get the advocacy push too. But sometimes that can be all-consuming, and the "my child needs" doesn't get a fresh examination, at least as not as often as it should. Then, when a layer of pity gets put over it by the general public, it blinds as well. It's a very hard balance, and one that will be interesting to see develop as these lawsuits continue.

 

[kaytieeldr]

I think Disney has to accept *some* of the blame for that

Which they have remedied as much as possible by eliminating the GAC, creating the DAS, and adhering to specific guidelines for issuance.

What I should have said, was those that have a doctor's note.

And if Disney is giving special access they can say that the only way to get it is with a note.

requiring a doctor's note would violate the ADA. Plus, you would need medically trained CMsto evaluate the validity of the note/needs.

 

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

requiring a doctor's note would violate the ADA. Plus, you would need medically trained CMsto evaluate the validity of the note/needs.

A doctor's note or whatever they require for Wish kids. (Which of course isn't just a doctor's note.) Obviously it works for Wish kids and doesn't violate ADA.

 

[kaytieeldr]

I didn't see anything on the request form specifying a doctor's note, but it does require doctor contact information. But i would expect MAW has personnel on staff to evaluate the need and validity, plus they are providin g greater-than-equal access.

 

[Jake]

Sorry, somebody repeatedly riding a ride, keep other people off of that ride. Everyone buys the same admission ticket and paid the same price. Everyone should have the same value for there money. We go from, understanding that disabled people should get a break, to them taking over our enjoyment. So 100 disable kids can take over a ride for the hold day ?

 

[DisneyOma]

A doctor's note or whatever they require for Wish kids. (Which of course isn't just a doctor's note.) Obviously it works for Wish kids and doesn't violate ADA.

MAW is a process - from doctors, to a board that evaluates, etc. People who apply for MAW sign a waiver, etc.

So, you want people to be able to have unlimited, special access because a doctor says so? What does a doctor have to do with going to a theme park on vacation? Are you stating that we need to have policies (and then laws) where a person with a disability gets preferred access to a privately owned entity?

 

[SueM in MN]

I didn't see anything on the request form specifying a doctor's note, but it does require doctor contact information. But i would expect MAW has personnel on staff to evaluate the need and validity, plus they are providin g greater-than-equal access.

MAW is verified very carefully before a wish is granted.
It does require contact with the child’s physician(s) who verify that the child has a life threatening condition.

Just requiring a letter from a doctor to get a ‘higer level’ of access than is given by DAS would not end up solving much because it would still be subject to abuse.
There would be nothing to stop people who wanted to cheat from writing up their own official looking letter. 30 years ago, most people didn’t have access to computers and printers that could create and print a professional looking letter. But, now, anyone with a computer ans internet access can create and print out a very official looking letter on official looking letterhead.

As Cheshire Figment used to write, if someone brings in a letter from ‘Dr. Smith’, how do you verify that Dr. Smith exists? And that xxxx xxxxxx is a patient of his? And that Dr. Smith actually wrote the letter?

A long time ago, when this Board first started, many people did bring letter, which Guest Relations CMs did not want to look at, but some people read the letters to the CMs. I’ve read posts from people whose doctor or a relatives offered to write a ‘disability letter’ when the doctor knew full well that none of the children were disabled. One memorable reason was ‘anyone with 3 small kids deserves not to wait.’

Most of the letters were basically form letters, “My patient has xxxxxx. Please expedite his access as much as possible.” I heard many people reading them to CMs. Some of the people I heard and read about got really mad when CMs tried to ask about their needs. And, I know there was a lot of discussion on line about what to say to get the ‘best stamps’ on the old GAC (Guest Assistance Cards). We did not allow that kind of discussion on this board, but many did and it was very easy to find scripts to use. And, there were people with nondisabled people who used those scripts to get GACs. People were also selling them eBay or getting one for a family member who was legitimately disabled, but that person rode nothing and it was used by the nondisabled members of their family to ride.

 

[tcufrog]

I think one of the reasons DL and WDW are so popular with people who have disabilities is because it's much more accommodating of different disabilities than most places you'd want to go on vacation. I think that's a good thing. The problem I see is this: How does Disney continue with this admirable mission without being so accommodating that the services are being abused and/or making it difficult for everyone else to enjoy the parks too?

 

[SueM in MN]

The person whose autistic son (Ben) had breakthroughs after visiting Disney World and riding Snow White actually wrote a series of blog posts and eventually a book about their experiences.
You can find the book on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/3500-Autistic-Ten-Year-Romance-White/dp/1482093308

And, there was quite a bit of news coverage when Snow White’s Scary Adventures closed and he was honored with being last to ride it:
https://attractionsmagazine.com/fan...n-autistic-teen-given-the-honor-of-last-ride/

This is a link to the blogpost that Ben’s father wrote about their experience the last night before Snow White’s Scary Adventure closed:
http://www.shmoolok.com/Blog/Post/340/SWSA-Final-Night-Part-1-The-Beginning-of-the-End

It was amazing to read and the family acknowledged that he would not have been able to ride it 3500 times in 10 years without being able to use GAC over and over again to ride without stopping.
But, they also had worked with him over the years to ‘wean’ him from using GAC. That was also interesting reading about - in many of ways, he was very similar to the people in the lawsuit. He started out riding a small number of attractions in a certain order and certain number of times each, having certain snacks at particular times in the order.

While it was certainly heartwarming to read, it was also easy to see one of the issues with GAC - when there are too many people getting immediate and unlimited access, things come to a crawl.
My daughter has multiple needs besides mobility that we used GAC and now DAS for. We always got Fastpasses if possible (the back of the GAC Card said guests using GAC were expected to). Many times when we were in the Fastpass Line using our Fastpasses, ALL the other people around us were using GACs. Many of them had the GAC Card on a lanyard around their neck, so it was pretty obvious and, we saw people ahead of us show their GAC Card.
That accounted for a pretty big chunk of the line.

 

[Lauren in NC]

I've been thinking about this thread for a while. We went to a harvest festival at my son's school a few weeks ago, and while there, a certain older student (that we know is on the spectrum) cut in front of us several times when we were the next in line. I tried to gently redirect him to the back of the line, but he didn't understand, and his dad (who usually accompanies him) was nowhere in sight. My son (who's also on the spectrum and very concerned with following rules) was confused and worried that his friend was "breaking the rules." It was frustrating for us because we've spent so much time and effort on helping him develop strategies for waiting in line, and this was a great place to practice the "waiting for something really exciting" that he'd need for our next trip to DL, as opposed to, you know, waiting in line at the grocery store

I don't want to pretend that I have some magical knowledge of what any person on the spectrum is capable of - or what exhausted parents are capable of - but I wonder what we're teaching when we don't even help a kid attempt to wait in even the relatively short line for a school bouncy house.

 

[ttintagel]

A doctor's note or whatever they require for Wish kids. (Which of course isn't just a doctor's note.) Obviously it works for Wish kids and doesn't violate ADA.

Right - if such a program ever were to exist, it would probably need to be run by an outside nonprofit company the same way MAW is. And their scrutiny would have to be rigorous. It would obviously need to be a very carefully-designed program with extremely high criteria.

 

[Betty Rohrer]

A doctor's note or whatever they require for Wish kids. (Which of course isn't just a doctor's note.) Obviously it works for Wish kids and doesn't violate ADA.

the Doctor info is required to be granted the Wish Trip and is not used at the theme parks. doesn't violate ADA because it is not something that anyone can get. an example parent decides he wants his child to this special MAW trip for his normal kid. he needs a doctor to tell MAW why this child should have this special trip. which is why I understand this doesn't violate ADA

 

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

MAW is a process - from doctors, to a board that evaluates, etc. People who apply for MAW sign a waiver, etc.

So, you want people to be able to have unlimited, special access because a doctor says so? What does a doctor have to do with going to a theme park on vacation? Are you stating that we need to have policies (and then laws) where a person with a disability gets preferred access to a privately owned entity?

Oh my gosh, really?????

As I have said, I was simply explaining what someone else wrote.

What I believe? I believe that way too many people receive the DAS and it is close to becoming what the GAC was.

It doesn't take but a google search to find a "script" of what to say and presto, you get one.

it will take a while, look at how long the GAC was a problem, and Disney will be changing their system again.