Do You Consider Yourself a Feminist?

[kiddo76]

 

[Colleen27]

I am to an extent. Of course I believe that women should have the same rights as a man. I believe in equal pay for equal work.

But, around here, I don't see this inequality that some of you seem to see. My supervisor is a woman, her supervisor is a woman and the VP of the campus is a woman. A woman that rose from first year instructor to campus VP in 10 years. Other male VPs took much longer to get there. Her mother was an elected person of power and was great at what she did. She is still a very strong and influential woman. My mother and my grandmother were business owners in their own right. Their husbands were also but Mom and Grandma owned successful businesses of their own.

Maybe its just the people around me, I don't know but I haven't seen any glass ceilings for women. I do not believe that women in the US are oppressed.

You're in education, though, aren't you? That is a heavily feminized profession, and one that is both philosophically and practically inclined to egalitarian thought. Many fields simply aren't that way.

We're in the middle of a national push to promote the trades over college as college becomes less and less affordable for the working and middle classes. But try getting a job in a trade as a woman. There is an immense amount of hiring bias that the "me too" movement is only further entrenching, as men in male-dominated fields now see women not only as less capable and/or as an intrusion on their masculine workplace culture but also now as a lawsuit or scandal waiting to happen. My son just moved into his second professional position in his trade and he has yet to have a female instructor or coworker. He has one female classmate who he freely admits is a much better student than him but who has been passed over for internship after internship even as all of the guys in his cohort have their summer work lined up.

At the statistical level, there is no arguing about the discrepancy in leadership by gender. Alabama, which is the most recent state to pass an abortion ban, has only had 9 state senators in over 200 years of history. Michigan isn't much better - it was the first thing my group of students noticed when we visited the state capitol in 4th grade, that on the yearbook-style portrait of the current legislative class there were only 4 or 5 women (out of 150). As someone posted up thread, there are more male CEOs named John than women at the head of Fortune 500 companies. Study after study shows an evaluation bias when resumes bear a feminine name as compared to a masculine one. Rape within marriage wasn't a crime until about 20 years ago, and rape and domestic violence prosecution and conviction rates remain among the lowest across our entire criminal justice system. These abortion laws are an excellent example of the persistent second-class status of women in the U.S. - by the laws recently passed in Georgia and a handful of other states, a woman who aborts a pregnancy conceived from rape would serve more time in prison than the man who attacked her (assuming he was convicted at all and actually sentenced to jail time, unlike the Brock Turners of the world). Yes, women in many other countries have it worse. But that doesn't erase how far we have to go to have actual equality in this country.

As women, though, we should be looking worldwide for how women are treated in other countries. I mean, here we are talking about seat belts and where to put a purse, they can't drive a car or go to school or have a job. They are seen as property, owned by their husbands. Yeah, I think US women have it pretty good.

Indulge me in a little hypothetical here... What would you think of someone making this argument on the basis of race? Arguing, say, that racially-biased policing or failing public schools or Flint's lead-tainted water aren't things that black Americans should complain about or want to see improved because at least they aren't caught in the middle of some African civil war or living in a Sierra Leone slum hoping they won't fall victim to the next ebola outbreak. Or telling American Jews not to be upset by anti-Semitic graffiti or the occasional attack on a temple because they could be in Syria, worrying that the Islamic State will put them to death?

There is always someone that has it worse. That doesn't mean we shouldn't want better, for ourselves AND for those others.

 

[cabanafrau]

View attachment 401013

I would definitely have a different (and incredibly well deserved IMO) nomination for whose "way" is described in paragraph two.

 

[luvsJack]

I totally agree with you, but it is all relative. Yes, American women are much better off than women in many other countries; I think we can all acknowledge that. We have many freedoms that others do not and that is incredibly sad. However, we still have a long way to go to achieve full equality, or to use the more accurate term, equitability (because, due to inherent differences between the sexes, in some ways it is not possible to have true equality).

The discussion of seat belts and purses was just an example of systemic discrimination we all face. And sorry, but I think seat belts are quite important, since they could potentially contribute to my death.

And they make products to fix the problem with seat belts. Its not that big of a deal and just not discrimination. The problem isn't that you are a woman, its that you are smaller than the design. If they make them fit the smaller size of most women, how will the belt then fit a larger man?

 

[cabanafrau]

You're in education, though, aren't you? That is a heavily feminized profession, and one that is both philosophically and practically inclined to egalitarian thought. Many fields simply aren't that way.

We're in the middle of a national push to promote the trades over college as college becomes less and less affordable for the working and middle classes. But try getting a job in a trade as a woman. There is an immense amount of hiring bias that the "me too" movement is only further entrenching, as men in male-dominated fields now see women not only as less capable and/or as an intrusion on their masculine workplace culture but also now as a lawsuit or scandal waiting to happen. My son just moved into his second professional position in his trade and he has yet to have a female instructor or coworker. He has one female classmate who he freely admits is a much better student than him but who has been passed over for internship after internship even as all of the guys in his cohort have their summer work lined up.

At the statistical level, there is no arguing about the discrepancy in leadership by gender. Alabama, which is the most recent state to pass an abortion ban, has only had 9 state senators in over 200 years of history. Michigan isn't much better - it was the first thing my group of students noticed when we visited the state capitol in 4th grade, that on the yearbook-style portrait of the current legislative class there were only 4 or 5 women (out of 150). As someone posted up thread, there are more male CEOs named John than women at the head of Fortune 500 companies. Study after study shows an evaluation bias when resumes bear a feminine name as compared to a masculine one. Rape within marriage wasn't a crime until about 20 years ago, and rape and domestic violence prosecution and conviction rates remain among the lowest across our entire criminal justice system. These abortion laws are an excellent example of the persistent second-class status of women in the U.S. - by the laws recently passed in Georgia and a handful of other states, a woman who aborts a pregnancy conceived from rape would serve more time in prison than the man who attacked her (assuming he was convicted at all and actually sentenced to jail time, unlike the Brock Turners of the world). Yes, women in many other countries have it worse. But that doesn't erase how far we have to go to have actual equality in this country.



Indulge me in a little hypothetical here... What would you think of someone making this argument on the basis of race? Arguing, say, that racially-biased policing or failing public schools or Flint's lead-tainted water aren't things that black Americans should complain about or want to see improved because at least they aren't caught in the middle of some African civil war or living in a Sierra Leone slum hoping they won't fall victim to the next ebola outbreak. Or telling American Jews not to be upset by anti-Semitic graffiti or the occasional attack on a temple because they could be in Syria, worrying that the Islamic State will put them to death?

There is always someone that has it worse. That doesn't mean we shouldn't want better, for ourselves AND for those others.

I'm not sure female representation in Michigan will make me sleep better tonight, far from it. At least prisoners have protections such as prohibitions against cruel and unusual punishment. If Kim LaSata gets her way women pursuing legal remedies will be made to physically suffer.

 

[cabanafrau]

And they make products to fix the problem with seat belts. Its not that big of a deal and just not discrimination. The problem isn't that you are a woman, its that you are smaller than the design. If they make them fit the smaller size of most women, how will the belt then fit a larger man?

The issue is that everything is inherently defined to default to men. That model continues to cost women their quality of life and even their lives when it comes to healthcare.

 

[luvsJack]

You're in education, though, aren't you? That is a heavily feminized profession, and one that is both philosophically and practically inclined to egalitarian thought. Many fields simply aren't that way.

We're in the middle of a national push to promote the trades over college as college becomes less and less affordable for the working and middle classes. But try getting a job in a trade as a woman. There is an immense amount of hiring bias that the "me too" movement is only further entrenching, as men in male-dominated fields now see women not only as less capable and/or as an intrusion on their masculine workplace culture but also now as a lawsuit or scandal waiting to happen. My son just moved into his second professional position in his trade and he has yet to have a female instructor or coworker. He has one female classmate who he freely admits is a much better student than him but who has been passed over for internship after internship even as all of the guys in his cohort have their summer work lined up.

At the statistical level, there is no arguing about the discrepancy in leadership by gender. Alabama, which is the most recent state to pass an abortion ban, has only had 9 state senators in over 200 years of history. Michigan isn't much better - it was the first thing my group of students noticed when we visited the state capitol in 4th grade, that on the yearbook-style portrait of the current legislative class there were only 4 or 5 women (out of 150). As someone posted up thread, there are more male CEOs named John than women at the head of Fortune 500 companies. Study after study shows an evaluation bias when resumes bear a feminine name as compared to a masculine one. Rape within marriage wasn't a crime until about 20 years ago, and rape and domestic violence prosecution and conviction rates remain among the lowest across our entire criminal justice system. These abortion laws are an excellent example of the persistent second-class status of women in the U.S. - by the laws recently passed in Georgia and a handful of other states, a woman who aborts a pregnancy conceived from rape would serve more time in prison than the man who attacked her (assuming he was convicted at all and actually sentenced to jail time, unlike the Brock Turners of the world). Yes, women in many other countries have it worse. But that doesn't erase how far we have to go to have actual equality in this country.



Indulge me in a little hypothetical here... What would you think of someone making this argument on the basis of race? Arguing, say, that racially-biased policing or failing public schools or Flint's lead-tainted water aren't things that black Americans should complain about or want to see improved because at least they aren't caught in the middle of some African civil war or living in a Sierra Leone slum hoping they won't fall victim to the next ebola outbreak. Or telling American Jews not to be upset by anti-Semitic graffiti or the occasional attack on a temple because they could be in Syria, worrying that the Islamic State will put them to death?

There is always someone that has it worse. That doesn't mean we shouldn't want better, for ourselves AND for those others.

I am in education. My mother and grandmother were not. My niece who made partner in her firm within a year is not. My friend who has zoomed up through the ranks in the police department is not. There are a lot of examples of successful women who have exceeded their male counterparts. Also, keep in mind, Administration at the college level was very male dominated for many years. Many of the colleges still have some of the "old guard" in place in administration and they are male. And as they move on, females are replacing them.

The college I work for graduates many student with technical degrees in the trades. The female students are some of the first to be hired. None of our trade classes have female instructors either but when asked, its because most women are making too much in the field to want to step back and teach. Doesn't seem to be a problem for women but a good thing instead. As for their internships, I don't know if any have worked with women as they aren't technically our students any more.

Sorry, cannot agree on the abortion laws and that is one of the things that keeps me from truly being "a feminist". I believe the new laws are protecting the rights of the unborn. And rather than the laws pushing women to second class status, it pushes the child to human status. Just my belief.

As for rape and domestic violence crimes being prosecuted. I don't keep up with stats on those things but I will say this, it seems that what has happened is that all a woman has to do is claim something and its taken as truth. There have been many cases of just that happening and the man ending up in jail or at least a charge that he has a very hard time coming back from. I don't know the answers as I know not believing the woman isn't the way to go either. But, just another of those pendulums that swung too far the other way. And I am sure many here could come up with many cases of women not being believed and that is not fair and should be rectified too. So perhaps its not a equal rights things so much as a legal thing and each case should be looked at to see what went wrong.

I don't know that we will ever have total equality honestly. Things never seem to hit a happy medium.

I am not saying we shouldn't complain about things that are unfair. Not at all. But when we are discussing seatbelts or bathrooms or medicine directions or whatever that can be fixed when women are being stoned to death for little more than making eye contact with a man; our complaints just seem a bit petty.

All of the things that you mention for Black Americans should definitely be complained about and protested and shouted to the roof tops until there is change. But those things are actual basic human rights that they are being denied.

 

[cabanafrau]

Anyone who thinks all a person has to do is make rape or sexual assault allegations and they will be taken as truth and the alleged perpetrator will be convicted and incarcerated is sadly misinformed -- by a serious longshot. Domestic violence allegations share many of the same challenges. One experience sitting in a courtroom and watching and listening to the proceedings of one of these cases would no doubt be eye opening.

What a sexual assault victim goes through in the process of bringing the allegations before a court of law is unbelievably challenging to say the least. It shouldn't be forgotten that men are also victims of sexual assault and domestic violence. IMO the bar for allegations from a male to be taken seriously is even higher than it is for female victims. The fact that Twitter is on fire with #MeToo and thousands are jumping on some bandwagon in no way equates to what the reality of these cases going through the legal system is, and those who take their impressions of what things "seem" like have no idea.

 

[monsterkitty]

Should we talk about gender bias in medicine? https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog...ies-in-experience-and-treatment-2017100912562

Or should we not open that can of worms because a woman in another country is being treated worse by men.

We can't control how women are treated in other countries. We can try to educate and help them, but we can't control the actions of others. We can work on equality here in our country, though.

 

[Moliphino]

Sorry, cannot agree on the abortion laws and that is one of the things that keeps me from truly being "a feminist". I believe the new laws are protecting the rights of the unborn. And rather than the laws pushing women to second class status, it pushes the child to human status. Just my belief.

I don't like abortion. I like to think I'd never have one myself. However, banning abortion doesn't actually do much to stop abortions, it just makes them less safe. The best way to reduce abortions is to have free and open access to birth control, comprehensive sex education, and social supports in place that make it easier for a woman to raise a child (free/inexpensive medical care/education/child care/etc.).
Instead we have Ohio trying to ban birth control along with abortion, which would also harm women who aren't even using birth control for contraception (like myself).

 

[kerry1379]

Many have asked on this thread why a woman wouldn't consider themselves a feminist. If you really want to know-from my experiences, truthfully-I don't feel welcome. I absolutely agree that women and men should both be treated with respect and have equal rights. My issue with "modern day" feminism is that I have been insulted and told what to do more by self proclaimed feminists than I ever have by any man. I have been told (to my face) that I "wasted my life and my education," and "that I set women back" by choosing to be a stay at home mom. In addition, I get the general feeling from the media (not the most reliable source, I know) that a woman must vote a certain way and have certain views on abortion to be a "real feminist." If I am being perfectly honest, it doesn't feel like the modern day definition of feminist welcomes each woman's choice but rather only certain choices.

I hope I haven't offended anyone. Just my thoughts. I do know that those views whom I have negatively personally experienced are more of the "radical" versions. But those "radical" views are amongst the most loudly and proudly expressed. It is hard to hear the less vocal.

 

[luvsJack]

Should we talk about gender bias in medicine? https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog...ies-in-experience-and-treatment-2017100912562

Or should we not open that can of worms because a woman in another country is being treated worse by men.

We can't control how women are treated in other countries. We can try to educate and help them, but we can't control the actions of others. We can work on equality here in our country, though.

Again, not saying we shouldn't ask for equality of anything. Not saying we shouldn't demand change when its actually needed. But I do think we should put our "inequality" in perspective. We can't control how anyone treats anyone, honestly. But we can speak out for the way women and children are treated in any country.

You talk about health care. Everyone, man and woman, needs to have some responsibility in their own health care. Speak up and speak out if you feel you are not being treated properly. There are doctors that may treat women differently. There are also some that don't treat anyone correctly. And possibly a few that treat men differently. A person should speak up loudly if that is the case. If I was in pain and a doctor handed me a sedative, we are going to have a problem and a loud one. But, honestly, I have never met a doctor that did that. So perhaps its just the difference in experiences.

 

[luvsJack]

I don't like abortion. I like to think I'd never have one myself. However, banning abortion doesn't actually do much to stop abortions, it just makes them less safe. The best way to reduce abortions is to have free and open access to birth control, comprehensive sex education, and social supports in place that make it easier for a woman to raise a child (free/inexpensive medical care/education/child care/etc.).
Instead we have Ohio trying to ban birth control along with abortion, which would also harm women who aren't even using birth control for contraception (like myself).

There is free and open access to birth control. Go down to the health department and they will give you all you want. All of those things--medical care, education and child care are given to women below a certain income level. The only thing on your list is maybe sex education.

I have read the articles about the proposed law in Ohio. First off, the representative that proposed this bill is an idiot and is wanting things that aren't possible like re-implanting the embryo from an ectopic pregnancy. And he clearly doesn't understand how birth control works. Like at all. And I hope the voters remember all this when he is up for reelection. BUT, he isn't trying to ban birth control. He is trying to make it so insurance won't pay for it. Still stupid but not the same as banning it.

 

[cabanafrau]

Doctors can treat their patients to the best of their abilities and overlook things, misdiagnose things, etc. simply because their training and most of what's widely understood about many conditions relate directly to male patients and does not always translate directly to a female patient. That's not a new concept.

Suggesting that the entire problem is all down to women not taking responsibility for their own health care or simply a doctor being biased against women or a doctor willfully treating women patients differently and it's the fault of the patients for accepting it is willfully misunderstanding or willfully mischaracterizing the problem. Decades of the science of medicine prioritizing the male model as patient presents a tremendous risk to women's health. There's a lot of catching up to do on this front.

 

[luvsJack]

Doctors can treat their patients to the best of their abilities and overlook things, misdiagnose things, etc. simply because their training and most of what's widely understood about many conditions relate directly to male patients and does not always translate directly to a female patient. That's not a new concept.

Suggesting that the entire problem is all down to women not taking responsibility for their own health care or simply a doctor being biased against women or a doctor willfully treating women patients differently and it's the fault of the patients for accepting it is willfully misunderstanding or willfully mischaracterizing the problem. Decades of the science of medicine prioritizing the male model as patient presents a tremendous risk to women's health. There's a lot of catching up to do on this front.

I am not suggesting it is the fault of the patient. I am suggesting that patients need to pay attention to the care they are receiving. And that if they feel they are being discriminated against for any reason, speak up.

 

[Wishing on a star]

WOW, I could not question or DISLIKE post #181 above any more strongly.

I can never get onboard with any VICTIM mentality.

I am a woman.
I am a small and very personally limited woman.
I have, more than not, been on the short end of the stick.
Do I think that just because I, personally, am not able to achieve everything that any other person can achieve, that this is inherently evil, or that I am, and will forever be a victim.
The feeling that one should always be 'entitled' or one is a victim, is problematic.
This is nothing less than reverse prejudice.
I, personally, will not go there.

 

[cabanafrau]

I am not suggesting it is the fault of the patient. I am suggesting that patients need to pay attention to the care they are receiving. And that if they feel they are being discriminated against for any reason, speak up.

I am suggesting that it's not always about direct discrimination from a doctor. Because the science of medicine does not have the depth and breadth of research specifically into women such as with men many differences are not known/widely known, recognized or understood. Whether the doctor themselves is male or female may not make a difference. Doctors simply do not have the information necessary to draw on to treat many health issues in women -- something that they may not be looking out for because it can be in relation to a disease or condition that much is known about, yet they may genuinely miss warning signs and problems because the bulk of their training actually came from information culled from decades of science focusing almost exclusively on males.

Men and women are anatomically the same when it comes to the heart organ. Yet the presentation of heart problems can reveal very differently between men and women. Some of that knowledge is becoming more widespread, but it is still being studied because the differences are not fully understood.

I can have a great doctor. I can go in and say, hey doc, I'm having this pain. Doctor can check me out, do tests and tell me nothing is showing up, it's likely X, I am do to Y and take Z, and I want to see you if it hasn't improved in X amount of time. I can follow everything to the letter and either still not show improvement or develop more serious symptoms. Doctor can then run me through a battery of tests and still not come up with conclusive results, send me for specialist consults, etc. The specialists may be great and treat me within the gold standard of care, not even simply the standard of care. My issue may still elude all of them. It wouldn't be uncommon for this to occur because whatever my problem is falls within a gap of medical science that has yet to be fully explored in regard to women, possibly no one has really identified that there is a functional difference between men and women in this particular area.

Can this happen to men? Tragically it can. Medical science can't fix everything, doesn't know everything. The gap is simply larger for women to fall into because the bigger proportion of medical science research for decades-plus has been centered on the study of males. It's easy for children to fall in this same kind of gap if they develop a condition that isn't usually found in the very young.

To blithely dismiss the issue as a woman not advocating properly for her health, a woman not carefully selecting a doctor, silently suffering bias or discrimination from her doctors or not paying attention? is simply willfully misunderstanding.

 

[Skywalker]

Of course I am a feminist. Every woman should be.

Telling "every woman" what they "should be" doesn't seem anymore progressive than telling them what they shouldn't be.

 

[Wishing on a star]

I AGREE....
at this time, so-called FEMINISM is all about teling woman what they should be, think, believe, fight for.
Just like the term reverse prejudice, so called progressive can be the opposite, anything but.

 

[Colleen27]

Sorry, cannot agree on the abortion laws and that is one of the things that keeps me from truly being "a feminist". I believe the new laws are protecting the rights of the unborn. And rather than the laws pushing women to second class status, it pushes the child to human status. Just my belief.

I have no issues with the unborn having human status... but there are no other circumstances where one human being can demand the use of another's body, even in a life-threatening situation. If my kid needs a kidney, I can't be forced to donate even if s/he will die without it. Even a *corpse* can't be forced to donate - someone, either the recently deceased or the next of kin, has to give consent. So the question of whether an unborn child is human is, in my opinion, moot - one human cannot demand another human compromise his/her bodily integrity for any reason.

As for rape and domestic violence crimes being prosecuted. I don't keep up with stats on those things but I will say this, it seems that what has happened is that all a woman has to do is claim something and its taken as truth. There have been many cases of just that happening and the man ending up in jail or at least a charge that he has a very hard time coming back from. I don't know the answers as I know not believing the woman isn't the way to go either. But, just another of those pendulums that swung too far the other way. And I am sure many here could come up with many cases of women not being believed and that is not fair and should be rectified too. So perhaps its not a equal rights things so much as a legal thing and each case should be looked at to see what went wrong.

This has been disproven time and again. There are a few high profile cases where it seems like that was the case, usually because the man involved admitted to some wrongdoing. But we've had two men now who have been elected president despite such allegations, two Supreme Court Justices confirmed over testimony from women who accused them of sexual misconduct, and countless entertainers and sports figures going on with their lives like the accusations against them never happened. It is even more true for "ordinary" people because the accusations never make headlines and are quickly forgotten.

There is free and open access to birth control. Go down to the health department and they will give you all you want. All of those things--medical care, education and child care are given to women below a certain income level. The only thing on your list is maybe sex education.

You say this as though it is so simple, but the reality is much less rosy. In some urban/suburban areas, the health department is useful for family planning services. In others, they do referrals to Planned Parenthood or other women's health clinics - the very places the pro-life lobby is trying to shut down - because they don't have the funding to meet demand. In rural areas, there may not even be a health department (or a clinic) within a reasonable distance of many residents. Medical care for the poor is nearly non-existent in many places, especially the states currently rushing to pass abortion bans because they're also mostly places that didn't accept the Medicaid expansion element of the ACA. Even in states that did accept it, and mine is among them, it leaves a lot of people uncovered - with a cutoff around the poverty level and a work requirement, there are a LOT of people who make too much for that medical coverage but not nearly enough to afford their own. And child care? That's a disaster. There's a specific process, separate from licensing, to accept child care assistance payments. Few providers bother, since there's a shortage of providers in my area anyway so they can easily fill slots without accepting the lower rates paid by assistance programs, and the process for accepting payments as a home caregiver is getting more difficult with every passing year as a hedge against fraud. Even when a single mother can find a provider, the paid hours are limited to her work hours - she has to pay out of pocket for the extra time the commute takes, and she can't get any help with childcare to pursue post-secondary education to improve her long run prospects.

I wouldn't have such a problem with the pro-life movement if its leaders engaged more honestly with the patchy nature of our social safety net and the very real and unmet needs that drive most of the demand for abortion in this country. But when they mostly oppose the very same programs that are shown to reduce abortion rates and instead think a ban is the answer, well, it really makes me question whether life is really what they care about. Because that kid is still a life at a year old, when Mom is watering down the formula to make it stretch, and at 4, when his so-called caregiver's idea of childcare is endless hours of SpongeBob, and at 6, when he goes to a school with metal detectors but not enough textbooks. But to some, it seems that he ceases to matter the moment he's born.

I am not suggesting it is the fault of the patient. I am suggesting that patients need to pay attention to the care they are receiving. And that if they feel they are being discriminated against for any reason, speak up.

But communication is a two-way process - if one side isn't listening, there's little chance of improvement. And with doctor shopping harder than ever, thanks to in/out of network considerations and other insurance requirements, it really isn't as simple as just speaking up.