Do You Consider Yourself a Feminist?

[luvsJack]

Let’s ask this question within the Christian paradigm and assume the baby could make a rational decision. The question is then which do you prefer-
1) live a life even though your mother doesn’t want you and you will suffer the result of that each and every day or
2) go to heaven and live with God and under his care.

What choice would you make?

Your post reminds me of a boy I went to high school with. Our high school had dorms and had students from other countries as well as from all over the US. This boy lived in the dorm. He came from a very troubled childhood. He was abused and neglected. A very unwanted child.

In English class we did a unit on Romeo and Juliet and the ending bothered him so much. He just couldn’t get over them taking their life. Later in another class the subject of abortion came up and all the reason were discussed. Some were about children being born into families and being unloved and unwanted. He stood up and with tears in his eyes said “But at least they would be alive! Don’t you all realize how precious that is?” He struck a chord with a lot of us.

I don’t know what happened in this boy’s life that made him value life so much. But he did. And he showed it every day. He is a doctor now from what I heard.

Now that is not meant to be an anti abortion story but a value of life story. Your post just made me think of him.

And I realize it sounds like a made up story to fit my beliefs. It’s not. He is a real person. And his story is part of what formed my belief system.

 

[luvsJack]

So, your answer is no, you would not adopt a severely handicapped baby. In that case it is ok to "kill" some babies but not others?

I would if I could.

I couldn’t do it but again (are we keeping count? Must be up to 10) I have always said there should be exceptions.

But not all that are assumed to be severely handicapped in the womb are severely handicapped. My friend’s child is proof of that.

 

[kiddo76]

And I never once said I would say she should put her life in danger.

Everytime a woman gets pregnant she puts her life in danger. The worst part of this, is that women without access to quality healthcare to prevent an unwanted pregnancy are the same women who are most likely to die from pregnancy.

 

[robinb]

Absolutely. My DH and DD are feminists too.

 

[kiddo76]

But not all that are assumed to be severely handicapped in the womb are severely handicapped. My friend’s child is proof of that.

I could argue that your friend was very irresponsible in risking her life in the way she did when she already had children at home who depended on her. But that was HER decision to make.

In taking away a woman's right to choose to end a pregnancy, you could also end up taking away a woman's right to choose to complete a pregnancy.

 

[Colleen27]

The women I know that have had abortions have had lifelong emotional problems stemming from it. They thought it was the answer at the time but years later, they are still mourning that child or the choice they made. I don't know anyone with a child that regrets having the baby. All three had different reasons for doing it. All three had children shortly after the abortion. Now of course that is only three in a sea of women who have had them but when the only people you know that have had abortions all have the same emotional problems from it, its tends to make one think that its pretty common.

Odds are you know far more than three women who have had abortions, but the ones who don't have any regrets aren't dwelling on it so it just doesn't come up in conversation. Statistically, most women do not regret the choice they made (and among those that do, there is often the common thread of not feeling like her choice was freely made).

You are right. Now that I think about it, a husband should get a voice in whether there will be more children. Just like his wife should get a voice in whether he gets a vasectomy. I forget that not all married couples would be like me and dh and never dream of doing such a thing without the other's knowledge. On the same token, I think that in a lot of cases, the father of the baby should get a voice in the choice of abortion. Not all fathers, so there would need to be exceptions of course.

Every person should have the right to make decisions for his or her own body, period, full stop. In a healthy relationship, of course the couple would discuss a major decision like this and seek to reach a mutually agreeable resolution. But when you say a husband should "get a voice" in a woman's decision to have a tubal (or a wife in a man's decision to have a vasectomy), you're saying that marriage makes a person something less than a fully autonomous human being. Not to mention the whole can of worms it opens for those in abusive, toxic or unhealthy relationships.

The same is true of abortion. One of the reasons adoption is an unattractive option for American women is because the father gets a say. And that say often comes without consequences; by stopping the mother from giving the child up for adoption, he's not obligated to take custody. He's just as able as any other man to skip out on even paying support, and if he's abusive or controlling, he's got a "tool" to use for 18+ years to manipulate the mother.

You talk about your friends who have regrets over choosing abortion. I know two women who deeply regret trying to choose life, because in both cases the "father" said he would support the choice to give the baby up for adoption... until the pregnancy was too far along for abortion to be a choice (because contrary to popular believe, elective late-term abortion is not a thing). Then one skipped out completely, and the other became an all around horror story - he was emotionally abusive right along but became physically abusive after the baby was born, and when she finally got herself together enough to leave, he became the ex from hell, getting her fired and evicted by showing up and making scenes, taking her to court to keep her from moving far enough away that she wouldn't feel like he was just around every corner, fighting for 50/50 custody on paper to reduce child support but not showing up reliably enough for her to count on him as childcare on his days, picking fights with and harassing men she tried to date, using CPS as a weapon, etc. She loves her child very much and has done everything she can to make a good life for her despite all of the hardships, but among close friends, she wonders often what might have been had she chosen differently. The other woman, on the other hand, well... she's not much of a mom. Her son has been removed from her care on multiple occasions because she basically decided to live her life as though she wasn't a mother, partying on the weekends and having assorted men in and out of her life, and she's never taken real care of the child. She's made no secret of wishing she wasn't a mom, and unfortunately, the courts keep pushing reunification (a rant for a whole 'nother thread) so he has no chance of getting off that roller coaster.

 

[low-key]

I dont know, I want equal pay for equal work, I dont want anyone (including women) to be treated unfairly, I am against the Government getting involved (Im alright with courts, but not government)

 

[mnrose]

We are talking about a living human. A baby. I cannot in good conscience get behind killing it.

I am all for sex education. And not abstinence only. Of course that isn’t productive. Dd had a health class that covered many things including sex education. Abstinence was only a small part of it. So I am unsure of where all this abstinence only sex Ed is taking place.

The heartbeat law passed in this state does not take away the choice. One just has to choose before a heartbeat is detected. I do wish exceptions were made for rape and incest. Exceptions are there for the health of the mother and the baby.

You do realize, of course, that MOST women have NO clue they are pregnant until after a heart beat can be detected. I did because I used in vitro to have my children, and knew the ins and outs of my pregnancy far, far better than most women who have sex and get pregnant. A heart beat is detected at "6 weeks" into a pregnancy. A pregnancy is dated from the first day of your last menstrual period. In reality, of course, you are NOT pregnant on the first day of your last menstrual period. By the time you are "late" (even one day) on your period, you are one month pregnant. That is just how pregnancies are dated. I had my first ultrasound at 6 w and 0 days into my pregnancy. In reality, this was less than two weeks after the embryos were implanted into my uterus, Yet, they called it "6 w 0 days." If a woman harbors no suspicions are being pregnant and isn't tracking her cycle carefully (or is one of the MILLIONS of women with irregular cycles), she could easily be "6 weeks" pregnant (i.e., two weeks "late" on her period) before she even has a clue. That's why these "heart beat" bills are so stupid. In effect, it is a ban on ALL abortions (except for the woman who is tracking like a hawk and takes repeated pregnancy tests starting at one day late for her period, and then rushes off IMMEDIATELY to have an abortion...yes, not a lot of those women out there).

 

[luvsJack]

Odds are you know far more than three women who have had abortions, but the ones who don't have any regrets aren't dwelling on it so it just doesn't come up in conversation. Statistically, most women do not regret the choice they made (and among those that do, there is often the common thread of not feeling like her choice was freely made).



Every person should have the right to make decisions for his or her own body, period, full stop. In a healthy relationship, of course the couple would discuss a major decision like this and seek to reach a mutually agreeable resolution. But when you say a husband should "get a voice" in a woman's decision to have a tubal (or a wife in a man's decision to have a vasectomy), you're saying that marriage makes a person something less than a fully autonomous human being. Not to mention the whole can of worms it opens for those in abusive, toxic or unhealthy relationships.

The same is true of abortion. One of the reasons adoption is an unattractive option for American women is because the father gets a say. And that say often comes without consequences; by stopping the mother from giving the child up for adoption, he's not obligated to take custody. He's just as able as any other man to skip out on even paying support, and if he's abusive or controlling, he's got a "tool" to use for 18+ years to manipulate the mother.

You talk about your friends who have regrets over choosing abortion. I know two women who deeply regret trying to choose life, because in both cases the "father" said he would support the choice to give the baby up for adoption... until the pregnancy was too far along for abortion to be a choice (because contrary to popular believe, elective late-term abortion is not a thing). Then one skipped out completely, and the other became an all around horror story - he was emotionally abusive right along but became physically abusive after the baby was born, and when she finally got herself together enough to leave, he became the ex from hell, getting her fired and evicted by showing up and making scenes, taking her to court to keep her from moving far enough away that she wouldn't feel like he was just around every corner, fighting for 50/50 custody on paper to reduce child support but not showing up reliably enough for her to count on him as childcare on his days, picking fights with and harassing men she tried to date, using CPS as a weapon, etc. She loves her child very much and has done everything she can to make a good life for her despite all of the hardships, but among close friends, she wonders often what might have been had she chosen differently. The other woman, on the other hand, well... she's not much of a mom. Her son has been removed from her care on multiple occasions because she basically decided to live her life as though she wasn't a mother, partying on the weekends and having assorted men in and out of her life, and she's never taken real care of the child. She's made no secret of wishing she wasn't a mom, and unfortunately, the courts keep pushing reunification (a rant for a whole 'nother thread) so he has no chance of getting off that roller coaster.

You make it sound like all fathers will be controlling and abusive. That isn’t the case.

What about the father that truly want his child? The one that would raise the child on his own and be a wonderful father. That is the majority of fathers.

Two people enter a marriage and plan a life together. Two not one. Marriage is supposed to a life together. If a man decided to buy a house without the wife getting a voice, everyone would say “what a controlling xxx he is! That’s just wrong!” But it’s perfectly ok for the wife to take away his choices about children?

 

[jalapeno_pretzel]

Your post reminds me of a boy I went to high school with. Our high school had dorms and had students from other countries as well as from all over the US. This boy lived in the dorm. He came from a very troubled childhood. He was abused and neglected. A very unwanted child.

In English class we did a unit on Romeo and Juliet and the ending bothered him so much. He just couldn’t get over them taking their life. Later in another class the subject of abortion came up and all the reason were discussed. Some were about children being born into families and being unloved and unwanted. He stood up and with tears in his eyes said “But at least they would be alive! Don’t you all realize how precious that is?” He struck a chord with a lot of us.

Unfortunately that's not what the little 4 year old from Texas who has been in the news lately would be able to say. Some children who are born unwanted or to unfit parents live short and painful lives of terror.

I think we can probably all agree there are so many intricacies of each individual situation that no person's experience will be just the same as any other. Some potential fathers might be controlling and abusive. Some would not be. Some women diagnosed with cancer will want to forgo chemo until after their child is born, and some will make the decision to abort so they can take the medical steps necessary to save their own life. Some women will come from a family that will unequivocally treat them with love and respect and support when she has a child out of wedlock, and others will come from a family that would disown them in that situation. Some women that find themselves pregnant with 5 babies will make the difficult choice to "reduce," and others will carry the five despite that decision giving her a 99% chance that all of them will die. That's why I think everyone should be able to make their own decision. No one fully knows what they are dealing with other than themselves, and it's really no one else's business.

When this thread started, I was wondering why any woman wouldn't consider herself a feminist (after all don't most of us appreciate the right to vote and being able to have a bank account in our own names?), but I do kind of see how if you are willing as a woman to allow the government to have dominance and control over your own body, that does kind of go contrary to feminism as I see it.

 

[beck02]

Here's a couple of examples I know for how it's different for a man vs. a woman:

I own a property in Louisiana (rental property). I paid the down payment, did the contract work to get it transferred to me, etc. and added my husband, because, well, we were married & it was a shared property. They apparently only had room for one name showing ownership, and that's his. So they show the owner as Mr. XX et ux (which means "and wife").

I also own a timeshare, and again, I was the one who wanted it & worked to get it added to my (and my husband's) name. Same thing--only his name got listed. I log in to the website to pay the maintenance fees, and it's "Hello Mr. X". I know the companies don't know who did all the work, or who paid the downpayment, but why does the woman's name ALWAYS have to come second? Or get left off altogether??? I've already lost my last name, I get to lose my first as well?

I'm a feminist, and I like men just fine, and obviously the above is just annoying, not a big thing. But my point is--it's not a big thing to list me either.

 

[YCCS]

https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-united-states

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3729671/

Not a single respondent in either of those studies indicated that their choice to have an abortion was because it was a method of birth control. Not one. Financial reasons, relationship problems, multiple other personal reasons. Not birth control. I'm not sure where you came up with the idea that most women who choose abortion are using it as a form of birth control.

There are approximately 450,000 children in the foster care system in the United States. 450,000 children whose parents couldn't, wouldn't or didn't take care of them. It's nice to tell sweet stories about abused and neglected children who are so tearfully grateful that they are alive, but it isn't the norm or even close.

Children who have been in the foster care system are nearly 2.5 times more likely to seriously consider suicide.
Are more than 4 times more likely to attempt suicide
Children who experience childhood abuse/trauma are 5 times more likely to attempt suicide
2/3 of suicide attempts are attributed to childhood abuse/trauma
10% of 8 year olds who are abused/neglected or at risk of being abused or neglected report being suicidal.

That is just suicide. If there are 450,000 children in the US who are in foster care, imagine the how many are suicidal.

 

[luvsJack]

Not a single respondent in either of those studies indicated that their choice to have an abortion was because it was a method of birth control. Not one. Financial reasons, relationship problems, multiple other personal reasons. Not birth control. I'm not sure where you came up with the idea that most women who choose abortion are using it as a form of birth control.

There are approximately 450,000 children in the foster care system in the United States. 450,000 children whose parents couldn't, wouldn't or didn't take care of them. It's nice to tell sweet stories about abused and neglected children who are so tearfully grateful that they are alive, but it isn't the norm or even close.

Children who have been in the foster care system are nearly 2.5 times more likely to seriously consider suicide.
Are more than 4 times more likely to attempt suicide
Children who experience childhood abuse/trauma are 5 times more likely to attempt suicide
2/3 of suicide attempts are attributed to childhood abuse/trauma
10% of 8 year olds who are abused/neglected or at risk of being abused or neglected report being suicidal.

That is just suicide. If there are 450,000 children in the US who are in foster care, imagine the how many are suicidal.

Back up and read what I said. No they didn’t say “birth control”. I listed the reasons they said and then compared that to reasons a woman stays on birth control.

Financial reasons, not wanting more children, their own education, career, not ready for a child—all listed reasons for abortion. None of those are about the health of the child or the mother. You and others have been throwing cases of the mothers life at risk or the baby being at risk around for awhile but when studies clearly show that those are rarely reasons for abortion, you want to deny what it’s clearly saying.

So these children that are risk for being suicidal should have been aborted in your opinion? Is that truly what you are saying? There are other sections of society that are more likely to be suicidal. Should we use the same theory on them?

As I said in my post about the boy, I wasn’t using that as a case against abortion. But just as a story of someone who taught some high school kids about a love and respect for life.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

The women I know that have had abortions have had lifelong emotional problems stemming from it.

My best friend had an abortion years ago (the father was some guy she was partial, sorta, dating). I can't remember exactly when it was. Originally she was going to keep the baby, told me I was going to be an aunt, and then opted to have the abortion. I was with her when the first night back because she was in some pain and wanted support. I can't even describe how upset I was that she had an abortion but I've always been about being that friend who doesn't try to overreach into friend's lives. She knew I was not in support of the abortion she knew however I was in support of her.

I really don't know if she's had lifelong emotional problems stemming from it. Outwardly and verbally she's never said any of the sort.

I don't know anyone with a child that regrets having the baby.

I have a friend whose child was born by a man who physically and emotionally abused her, she was for a while also did heroin while she was with him. I don't truly know if she regrets her child or sees her as a shining light in a dark times.




In the case of both the mind and heart are some very complicated places. We may never truly know how someone feels. And sometimes (though of course not always) the outward pressure fuels our outward feelings.

 

[Bianca and Bernard]

Most replies in this thread are short sentences. I don't see the majority of them as being thoughtful. Find it odd that you labelled them as such.

I think most people are trying to avoid the inevitable ban/points debacle that will be hitting this thread eventually.

Disagree completely. A woman's body is her own body and she alone should make ALL decisions.

If a husband and wife have a good marriage, they will naturally discuss it between themselves. They will have made the decision together.

If a woman is getting a tubal or a hysterectomy without her husband's knowledge, then there are already problems in the marriage and the woman might have a reason to do what she is doing without her husband's knowledge. And a woman giving birth is not the only way to add to a family. If either spouse has a problem with someone doing a medical procedure without their consent, they have many options from counseling to divorce. It is no different than a spouse hiding money in a separate account of so many other ways a dysfunctional marriage operates.

I would love to see the stats on how many doctors require a husband's permission for a tubal vs how many doctors require a wife's permission for a vasectomy.

My husband had a vasectomy in 2004, in NV. He went in to the doctor to discuss it and had it about 20 minutes later. There was no discussion from the doctor with me about whether or not to do the procedure (and yes, I was there in the waiting room). I discussed having my tubes tied after my son was born (2003) and the 2 doctors I was seeing both insisted on talking with my DH about the matter (one at an OB appointment, the other in the hospital just prior to giving birth). (FTR, I was on board with the vasectomy; my problem is with the treatment of my care vs his.)

Someone, tell me again how my rights to medical care were equal to his in this case. Explain to me how he had the right to dictate if I could have children, but I couldn't dictate his.

If you don't have a uterus, you have zero business dictating mine. And if you do have a uterus, you still have zero business dictating mine.

Are you willing to open your home and adopt a baby with severe handicaps, shouldering the millions of dollars of out of pocket expenses, losing everything you own to take care of a child born to a teenager with severe handicaps? Without any excuses, would you say unequivocally yes?

Because, like in the past, many of these children will be put up for adoption. And nobody will adopt them. And then we go back to large warehouses of institutionalized children.

I could never abort myself, but I also could never tell another parent who has to make a devastating decision that their decision has to be according to my beliefs.

As I mentioned up thread, my mother had to make that decision. Someone was going to die. There was little chance that she would make it through like your friend. How do you make the decision on who is going to die? The mom of two toddlers that need her or the unborn baby? That decision needs to be between the parents, their doctors, and their spiritual beliefs

You are not pro-life if you say it is perfectly ok to kill a mother for the sake of a blastula or fetus.

And not just severly handicapped children will suffer. We will see more children in foster homes, dead in suitcases in rivers, or just plain missing altogether. More women dying because they did something to cause a miscarriage, and they can't get help because of fear of prosecution.


-------------------------

There are calls for boycotting businesses based in those states (AL, GA, TX, OH, MO), and calls for boycotting spending any money on the 20th/21st of the month. Calls to make safe havens in states that aren't as uptight and holier-than-thou.

Slippery slopes lead downhill.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

You do realize, of course, that MOST women have NO clue they are pregnant until after a heart beat can be detected. I did because I used in vitro to have my children, and knew the ins and outs of my pregnancy far, far better than most women who have sex and get pregnant. A heart beat is detected at "6 weeks" into a pregnancy. A pregnancy is dated from the first day of your last menstrual period. In reality, of course, you are NOT pregnant on the first day of your last menstrual period. By the time you are "late" (even one day) on your period, you are one month pregnant. That is just how pregnancies are dated. I had my first ultrasound at 6 w and 0 days into my pregnancy. In reality, this was less than two weeks after the embryos were implanted into my uterus, Yet, they called it "6 w 0 days." If a woman harbors no suspicions are being pregnant and isn't tracking her cycle carefully (or is one of the MILLIONS of women with irregular cycles), she could easily be "6 weeks" pregnant (i.e., two weeks "late" on her period) before she even has a clue. That's why these "heart beat" bills are so stupid. In effect, it is a ban on ALL abortions (except for the woman who is tracking like a hawk and takes repeated pregnancy tests starting at one day late for her period, and then rushes off IMMEDIATELY to have an abortion...yes, not a lot of those women out there).

Unless I'm on birth control my cycle has never and I mean never been regular since the age of 13. It varies from 45-60 days and sometimes longer and sometimes shorter.

Honest to gosh I figure I'm going to have to utilize some of the fancy things women use these days (apps, bracelets like ava, etc) to help track because at the time of me trying to get pregnant if I didn't do that stuff I may not know. I've tracked my periods but they are never regular thus I wouldn't actually know I was late. It's absolutely positively possible I may not know I'm pregnant 6 weeks in or even 8 weeks in (like the time-frame MO is purposing).

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

"You throw like a girl" - used to be seen as an insult, & women just now are beginning to claim "like a girl" w/ pride. If a little boy fell down & skinned his knee & started crying, many times he'd be made fun of & scolded, "You're crying like a little girl!"

He learned that kind of attitude from his dad. And I informed him that, "No, I don't read 'girly' books. And having emotion & being moved by something doesn't make one 'girly' any more than getting excited while watching things blow up in a movie makes one 'manly'."

My husband's step-sister (well no longer technically as in a title--her mom and my husband's dad got divorced and was never blood related) and her husband act and talk like that with their boys. It infuriates me, it disgusts me and I hate being around that crap. The brother of the step-sister is like that (sometimes worse) with his own son.

I told my husband if they act like that around our children (and this is in the future tense) they won't be around us much longer after that because I won't sit back quietly if they say that to my child nope no way. The sad part is my father-in-law and now he new wife seem to endorse this behavior so add them to the list of not sitting back quietly.

I told my husband if our son (if I had one as again future tense) likes pink, or likes to play with dolls, or roots for the female NASCAR driver, or is more what people would describe as sensitive I would encourage not embarrass or humiliate based on that sort of gender stereotype. We're in agreement on that.

 

[YCCS]

Back up and read what I said. No they didn’t say “birth control”. I listed the reasons they said and then compared that to reasons a woman stays on birth control.

Financial reasons, not wanting more children, their own education, career, not ready for a child—all listed reasons for abortion. None of those are about the health of the child or the mother. You and others have been throwing cases of the mothers life at risk or the baby being at risk around for awhile but when studies clearly show that those are rarely reasons for abortion, you want to deny what it’s clearly saying.

So these children that are risk for being suicidal should have been aborted in your opinion? Is that truly what you are saying? There are other sections of society that are more likely to be suicidal. Should we use the same theory on them?

As I said in my post about the boy, I wasn’t using that as a case against abortion. But just as a story of someone who taught some high school kids about a love and respect for life.

In case you forgot, here is your exact quote:

Babies should have rights too. And don’t say in one breath (not you but pro choice people in general) that it’s not used for birth control when the largest number are in fact for birth control.


You said that the largest number of abortions are for birth control. There is absolutely no evidence to back that up.

Stop making it sound like women have abortions on a whim. That they go and get them like they are picking up a happy meal. For the vast majority of women this is a difficult decision, and never one that is made lightly. Everyone wants to come up with anecdotal stories about women who have 15 abortions, or women who were told their child wouldn't survive, or they wouldn't survive, and then the child is miraculously healthy, or the birth was as easy as drinking a glass of water, but these are the rare cases, the extreme exception to the rule.

No child should be brought into this world just to suffer, and emotional suffering is just as painful as physical.

It may be how you want to spin it to say that women use abortion as birth control to demonize women who choose abortion, but the facts don't support that.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Pro choice is a misnomer. The proper term is anti life.

Refresher course in examples of "opposite":
The opposite of pro-life is anti-life.
The opposite of pro-choice is anti-choice.
Life and choice are not synonymous, therefore the quoted statement is invalid.

I dont know, I want equal pay for equal work, I dont want anyone (including women) to be treated unfairly, I am against the Government getting involved (Im alright with courts, but not government)

This, Jason, indicates you might just be a feminist. Not a radical feminist, just a feminist. Welcome aboard!

 

[pahoben]

For some reason this line of reasoning reminded me of Jim Jones.

To answer your question: If I was the baby in question, Number 1 for me please. Number 1 for me, every time.
Also, I can’t help but wonder if a gender-neutral pronoun would be preferred by most people when referring to God in this thread.

Jim Jones did focus on collecting unwanted children and adults that were previously unwanted children.