The Running Thread - 2019

[Professor_Cookie]

The one from earlier this week, using nothing but anecdotal evidence to claim they don’t help maintain trails?

That’s the one.


ETA- I don’t understand the point of publishing an editorial like that with out a counterpoint. Funny that they are now claiming it was meant to be humorous.

 

[huskies90]

@LSUlakes and @Slogger - NCAA baseball tournament selection today. LSU #1 seed and hosting their regional, UConn gets a #2 seed in the OK City regional.

 

[ChattaDIS]

You let me know what the results are and I can make some mathematical adjustments for Temp+Dew and elevation gain to put it back at a roughly equivalent ideal race performance.

8k and finished in 46:53. It was pretty hot and the course has a massive hill which to put it in perspective, the winner finished in 25:32 but ran the hill mile in 6:00. My Apple Watch had like a 450 ft elevation gain. Temp + dew point was probably about 150 or so

 

[KevM]

That’s the one.


ETA- I don’t understand the point of publishing an editorial like that with out a counterpoint. Funny that they are now claiming it was meant to be humorous.

Ah, the good ol’ you just don’t get humor defense.

Looking at some of the other articles by the same writer, he’s also a skier that hates snowboarders. How unshocking.

 

[Professor_Cookie]

That’s the one.

Ah, the good ol’ you just don’t get humor defense.

Looking at some of the other articles by the same writer, he’s also a skier that hates snowboarders. How unshocking.

Ah, great. That’s another sport of mine he hates.

 

[DopeyBadger]

8k and finished in 46:53. It was pretty hot and the course has a massive hill which to put it in perspective, the winner finished in 25:32 but ran the hill mile in 6:00. My Apple Watch had like a 450 ft elevation gain. Temp + dew point was probably about 150 or so

So a 46:53 with a T+D adjustment of 5% (at 152-154) would put you at a 44:32. Then a conservative adjustment of 30 seconds per mile for the elevation gain of 90 feet per mile would put you at a 42-43 min 8k under ideal conditions on a perfectly flat road. So the following would be your suggested training paces:





So if you choose to use Higdon Int. 1, then your marathon "race pace" training would be at a 9:27 min/mile. Your LR Sundays would be at 10:18 min/mile. You weekday runs would be between 10:35-11:20 min/mile. All of this assumes ideal training conditions. So this would be your adjustment for T+D:



Also keep in mind that we adjusted for the elevation profile. Which means if any training run encounters hills (which they should), then you should anticipate that your pace will be at least 10-30 seconds per mile slower on uphills (as a general thought). But the steepness of the hills and frequency will certainly dictate a true adjustment of paces. I like using Strava because it has a feature called Grade Adjusted Pace (GAP) which shows your splits adjusted for the elevation profile. So it's nice to evaluate post-run to see how consistent you were with pacing even though the real life splits might be "off".



Hope this helps!

 

[ChattaDIS]

Thanks. This help a ton to give me an idea. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Ran the BratFest 5k this past weekend. Finished in 20:39 and 4th Overall. Here's the longer recap (link).

 

[Mumof4mice]

Running Question: I would love some advice on how to most effectively use my available training time.

I started the Galloway walk-run program 8 weeks ago. Currently I do an outdoor run with my husband on Sundays, and have 45-60 minutes on Mon/Wed/Fri (between work and school pick up) which I've been using for 2 treadmill runs and one strength training session.

Instead of the treadmill runs, I'm going to brave running at the school oval from now on. How should I train on those two days? My most recent run was 6k at 6:57/km pace with 180ft elevation gain. I'm aiming to get under 60 minutes before Marathon week. Thank you for your time!

 

[SheHulk]

Some personal news: I unboxed a new pair of Asics Nimbus 20s I had been hoarding in my closet! Love New Shoe Day and my shins are thanking me already.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I started the Galloway walk-run program 8 weeks ago. Currently I do an outdoor run with my husband on Sundays, and have 45-60 minutes on Mon/Wed/Fri (between work and school pick up) which I've been using for 2 treadmill runs and one strength training session.

The initial reaction would be to stay with your training plan through to the end of the cycle if you've found it to be working for you. Which means if you're following a set Galloway plan (like those found on runDisney) to not edit the plan as a whole too much. The writer had reasons and intent behind the choices they made in designing it. Now of course, if you plan to head in a different direction or you're not specifically on a Galloway training plan, then that's a different consideration.

Instead of the treadmill runs, I'm going to brave running at the school oval from now on. How should I train on those two days? My most recent run was 6k at 6:57/km pace with 180ft elevation gain. I'm aiming to get under 60 minutes before Marathon week. Thank you for your time!

Galloway's plans are built almost exclusively on easy running. So dependent on which plan you're following would dictate what you would do on those two days. But my initial gut reaction is likely two very easy days of running (usually HM pace or M pace + 2 min/mile) around the oval. I'd say a 6k at 6:57 pace is something like the following fitness profile:



The difference is you're following the run/walk methodology, so the pacing scheme is a bit different. How fast is a comfortable walking pace? Not a walk with purpose, but comfortable.

Also, I'm assuming the 60 min goal is for 10k? Based on the fitness profile above, that would be about a 15% improvement. A normal improvement rate is about 2-5% every 16 weeks (unless you are super early on in run training, or you've recently increased you're training load to a much higher level that you haven't gone to prior). So there are about 2-3 cycles between now and Marathon Weekend. So a normal improvement would be 4-15%. So dropping down from 1:11 to 1:00 would not be impossible, but if the fitness profile above is correct, would take stringing together several very very good training cycles.

 

[Mumof4mice]

The initial reaction would be to stay with your training plan through to the end of the cycle if you've found it to be working for you. Which means if you're following a set Galloway plan (like those found on runDisney) to not edit the plan as a whole too much. The writer had reasons and intent behind the choices they made in designing it. Now of course, if you plan to head in a different direction or you're not specifically on a Galloway training plan, then that's a different consideration.



Galloway's plans are built almost exclusively on easy running. So dependent on which plan you're following would dictate what you would do on those two days. But my initial gut reaction is likely two very easy days of running (usually HM pace or M pace + 2 min/mile) around the oval. I'd say a 6k at 6:57 pace is something like the following fitness profile:

View attachment 403597

The difference is you're following the run/walk methodology, so the pacing scheme is a bit different. How fast is a comfortable walking pace? Not a walk with purpose, but comfortable.

Also, I'm assuming the 60 min goal is for 10k? Based on the fitness profile above, that would be about a 15% improvement. A normal improvement rate is about 2-5% every 16 weeks (unless you are super early on in run training, or you've recently increased you're training load to a much higher level that you haven't gone to prior). So there are about 2-3 cycles between now and Marathon Weekend. So a normal improvement would be 4-15%. So dropping down from 1:11 to 1:00 would not be impossible, but if the fitness profile above is correct, would take stringing together several very very good training cycles.

Thanks @DopeyBadger !

Sorry, I should have explained I'm not following a specific plan now. The Galloway program looked achievable enough that I decided to sign up for the 10k. I started at 1min run (6/km) :1min walk (10/km), gradually lengthening the run. After 6 weeks, I was able to recover at slow jog pace and drop the walking.

My fitness history is minimal - weight training 1-2x/week since 2018, never done any cardio, couldn't run, no sports at school. At least that means barely used joints and no old sports injuries

We've been increasing distance/speed on Sundays, then I try to run at the same speed with 1% incline on the treadmill during the week. DH is a decent runner through always having done sports. He believes in no pain no gain, but I'm hoping for added boost through science. Thank you!

 

[Waiting2goback]

 

[DopeyBadger]

Thanks @DopeyBadger !

Sorry, I should have explained I'm not following a specific plan now. The Galloway program looked achievable enough that I decided to sign up for the 10k. I started at 1min run (6/km) :1min walk (10/km), gradually lengthening the run. After 6 weeks, I was able to recover at slow jog pace and drop the walking.

My fitness history is minimal - weight training 1-2x/week since 2018, never done any cardio, couldn't run, no sports at school. At least that means barely used joints and no old sports injuries

We've been increasing distance/speed on Sundays, then I try to run at the same speed with 1% incline on the treadmill during the week. DH is a decent runner through always having done sports. He believes in no pain no gain, but I'm hoping for added boost through science. Thank you!

I'd say you'll see the most gains from finding a structured training plan and following it. When looking for something, look for something that fits around your life and not the other way around. Something that you look at and say, yea, I can complete nearly 100% of the durations of this plan. For example, this was the Higdon plan discussed earlier (not saying this plan is for you but rather as an example):



You look at week 15 and see 8 miles on Wednesday and 20 miles on Sunday. You calculate out your paces vs the distance and find that 8 miles will take you 1:56 hours (14:30 x 8 miles). So can you commit to a nearly 2 hour run during the week, if not, then look for a different plan. The plan that you can follow as closely to originally written is the best plan. Because that 8 mile mid-week run serves a purpose for the writer. So check out Galloway, Higdon, Fitzgerald, Daniels, etc. Then a key aspect is to pay attention to the pacing ideas in the plan you choose. Because that plays a critical role and maximizing the plan for you. Train slow to race fast.

Here are some pacing ideas for either continuous training or run/walk





The grand majority of training should be at "easy" on either of the pace schemes.

 

[LSUlakes]

@LSUlakes and @Slogger - NCAA baseball tournament selection today. LSU #1 seed and hosting their regional, UConn gets a #2 seed in the OK City regional.

The SEC tournament helped us out a lot! It's been way to long since we have hosted (2 years). The season has been a struggle this year and expectations were high early this year with a #1 ranking. The idea was Ohama or bust. So we still can reach that goal, but a top 8 seed would have made things better. I should be able to watch most of Fridays game and hope that I can watch it from Punta Cana for the remainder of the weekend. #FirstWorldProblems Good luck to your team and GEAUX TIGERS!

 

[LSUlakes]

QOTD: It's my first time getting on the DIS since the format change. How does everyone like the new DIS boards?

ATTQOTD: I think I am going to like it. It's different but also the same so no complaints that I can make.

 

[StacyStrong]

ATTQOTD- I want to like it, but I don't. Unless I'm missing something (I might be), I have to scroll all the way to the bottom of a thread to change pages and then all the way back up for site navigation (on my phone). That's not great. But at the end of the day, it doesn't actually affect my life negatively, so it is what it is and I'll get used to it!

 

[Mumof4mice]

I'd say you'll see the most gains from finding a structured training plan and following it. When looking for something, look for something that fits around your life and not the other way around. Something that you look at and say, yea, I can complete nearly 100% of the durations of this plan. For example, this was the Higdon plan discussed earlier (not saying this plan is for you but rather as an example):

View attachment 403727

You look at week 15 and see 8 miles on Wednesday and 20 miles on Sunday. You calculate out your paces vs the distance and find that 8 miles will take you 1:56 hours (14:30 x 8 miles). So can you commit to a nearly 2 hour run during the week, if not, then look for a different plan. The plan that you can follow as closely to originally written is the best plan. Because that 8 mile mid-week run serves a purpose for the writer. So check out Galloway, Higdon, Fitzgerald, Daniels, etc. Then a key aspect is to pay attention to the pacing ideas in the plan you choose. Because that plays a critical role and maximizing the plan for you. Train slow to race fast.

Here are some pacing ideas for either continuous training or run/walk

View attachment 403737

View attachment 403738

The grand majority of training should be at "easy" on either of the pace schemes.

Thank you so much for taking time to write the detailed reply. Super helpful. The idea of "train slow to race fast" is intriguing. I thought a big increase in training intensity was called for, when the beginner gains run out. Will read up on it and check out the writers you listed.

Have an awesome day!

 

[Capang]

ATTQOTD: I like that I can easily upload pictures. That used to be a real pain.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Thank you so much for taking time to write the detailed reply. Super helpful. The idea of "train slow to race fast" is intriguing. I thought a big increase in training intensity was called for, when the beginner gains run out. Will read up on it and check out the writers you listed.

I would agree. I'd say as you increase in distance in your training journey, you can do so first just simply by doing more easy endurance based running. Even the 10k is about 90% aerobic or endurance based. So simply by moving the amount of training per week from 2 to 4 to 6 to 8 hours (as an example and not a recommendation) is going to enable you to see large gains even with almost exclusively easy running. In effect what you're doing is manipulating the adaptation cycle of the different parts of the body. Provide a stimulus. Then the body recovers from said stimulus. Then the body adapts to the stimulus. If you do too much too soon, you're likely to provide stimulus, recover, but never adapt because the next stimulus occurs too soon. But if the training is appropriate, then the body will stay in that cycle of stimulus-recover-adapt. That's one of the reasons you see really high end runners doing doubles. They don't increase the training duration such that they're doing longer and longer training runs because that gets them stuck in the same stimulus-recover cycle without the adaptation. Rather they just change the frequency of training and do it twice per day but keeping the duration of each run respectable. That's a different way to manipulate the recovery portion of the cycle forcing the body to adapt quicker. Not saying you need doubles because very few runners do, but rather as a way to show how the training works in a systematic way.

As the training plans you choose get progressively more difficult is when you'll find the addition of a variety of pacing. And certainly at that time is when you're looking to continue to refine the endurance you've built up. That's when working the entire pacing spectrum becomes fruitful with an eye on specificity to the event you are training towards. That will continue to push the gains beyond the low hanging fruit which is the simple volume gains made by just training more. Once you decide that you can't handle anymore additional volume because of personal time restrictions or you get injured too often, that's when I'd consider a move to more pacing. Something to keep in mind about endurance gains though, most don't maximize their potential until they reach 7000-10000 career running miles.

Since you're early on in your running journey and likely to progress faster fitness wise, then I think it's warranted to reassess your pacing scheme probably every 4-6 weeks. Just be mindful that changing the pace scheme to faster and increasing the volume simultaneously causes a larger jump in training load. So be cautious when those times come. The rule of thumb with nearly every easy training day is this: "Easy isn't easy if it didn't feel easy." So unless it felt like you didn't even try, then you probably went too fast. Barely breathing. Like you could run for hours at that pace. As soon as you're done, you simply feel like you barely even did anything. That's what easy feels like. It's bizarre mentally to wrap your head around, but the training style certainly works.