Riviera Sales by the numbers (vs CCV) for 2019 - (December added 1/16/2020)

[RivShore]

I'm not nearly as well versed on that system as I am DVC, despite owning for close to 20 years (which actually goes towards proving my point that the majority of DVC owners are not like us here on the DIS). So to answer your question best I can (which is to say not very well) it's severely restricted as to location and time. If you want to qualify the points I think it would cost you in the neighborhood of another $5,000 and even still I think they are still marred a bit. I will say that several years ago MVC offered us about $2,000 for it and we declined. Not sure if that offer is even on the table anymore. But for now we get way more use out of it than $2,000 so we kept it.

I have no idea what qualifying points means in this context but it triggered another possibility in my head - say you bought RIV on the resale market for $100 and a few months later DVC sends you a welcome letter with an option to pay $50/point to have full 7 month booking privileges at the L14. Now for $150/point you have full booking privileges, maybe not a horrible deal. Add that to the list of many many possibilities.

 

[ELMC]

I agree they may not be thrilled with resellers but unlike other timeshares, disney benefits by creating traffic in the parks where disney makes more money. Traditional timeshares have to rip you off because that is their business model and they offer nothing else; disney should be willing (and was) to forgo making every last nickel on dvc contracts to ensure people are happy and coming frequently.

Great point. Unfortunately, we are seeing this across the board with Disney, specifically under the Chapek regime. They want every. last. nickel.

Isn't the work making the initial sale? Every resale was at one point sold by disney. It's like a developer; they don't care if they sell a house for $400k and then five years later the owner sells through a broker for $800k. The goal should be to make a sale that gets someone back to Disney more frequently than they otherwise would for decades; strong resale actually facilitates that imo because if it evidences anything, it is demand for the product (albeit the no - direct product).

I'm sure I sound like a broken record but the resale price indicates they created a great product, now they want to ruin the product to kill resale lol.

If that developer had more houses to sell then you can bet they would care that anyone is buying any house but theirs.

As for killing the product...the rooms, point charts, dues, benefits, booking windows, website, etc. are all staying relatively the same. One could argue that while they are damaging the flexibility of exit, the use of the product is remaining largely untouched.

 

[ELMC]

I have no idea what qualifying points means in this context but it triggered another possibility in my head - say you bought RIV on the resale market for $100 and a few months later DVC sends you a welcome letter with an option to pay $50/point to have full 7 month booking privileges at the L14. Now for $150/point you have full booking privileges, maybe not a horrible deal. Add that to the list of many many possibilities.

That's exactly what qualifying the points is. And don't be surprised if you see that. It wouldn't surprise me if they created the restrictions as step one of a two-step process designed to do exactly that. In which case, THAT is the way they will "back off" these restrictions. Gotta hand it to them, they're clever.

 

[RivShore]

That's exactly what qualifying the points is. And don't be surprised if you see that. It wouldn't surprise me if they created the restrictions as step one of a two-step process designed to do exactly that. In which case, THAT is the way they will "back off" these restrictions. Gotta hand it to them, they're clever.

That could very well be the end game and really may not be that bad, if it stops all the other degradation we've been speculating about.

 

[Soap_1984]

Great point. Unfortunately, we are seeing this across the board with Disney, specifically under the Chapek regime. They want every. last. nickel.

If that developer had more houses to sell then you can bet they would care that anyone is buying any house but theirs.

As for killing the product...the rooms, point charts, dues, benefits, booking windows, website, etc. are all staying relatively the same. One could argue that while they are damaging the flexibility of exit, the use of the product is remaining largely untouched.

Well it's the increased pricing, increased point charts, resale restrictions, removing the ability for resale to stay at new resorts etc. But you are right I guess I am assuming this trend continues and they keep adding more restrictions.

Interesting conversation on qualifying points I never even considered that.

 

[eMoneyBug]

I believe Marriott does this with their resale, it's 1 use only but if you want into the Marriott system to trade, then you have to pay the "upgrade" fee. Disney could easily do this with RIV to get into the L14 or any L14 purchased after Jan 2019 to pay an "upgrade" to get into RIV + future DVC

 

[zavandor]

I have no idea what qualifying points means in this context but it triggered another possibility in my head - say you bought RIV on the resale market for $100 and a few months later DVC sends you a welcome letter with an option to pay $50/point to have full 7 month booking privileges at the L14. Now for $150/point you have full booking privileges, maybe not a horrible deal. Add that to the list of many many possibilities.

In the Riviera POS they wrote the possibility of qualifying points for a fee, so probably at some point they'll do it.
However, if the current price is $188 and the resale market value is $100, I don't think they'll offer to qualify the points for $50, that would create a way to get the full direct benefits for les than the direct cost, that would be against everything they did until now. So in this scenario, my guess would be that it would cost $90+ per point, so if you buy resale and later you want the direct benefit you end up paying more than buying direct in the first place.

 

[Brianstl]

In the Riviera POS they wrote the possibility of qualifying points for a fee, so probably at some point they'll do it.
However, if the current price is $188 and the resale market value is $100, I don't think they'll offer to qualify the points for $50, that would create a way to get the full direct benefits for les than the direct cost, that would be against everything they did until now. So in this scenario, my guess would be that it would cost $90+ per point, so if you buy resale and later you want the direct benefit you end up paying more than buying direct in the first place.

I could see them doing it at $50 but you won’t get a blue card.

 

[TexasChick123]

I could see them doing it at $50 but you won’t get a blue card.

I agree. I never thought they would “qualify points” and allow a member to get direct status. I think direct status will remain as it is: you get it now by buying direct. They want a piece of the resale pie. The easiest way to do this is to charge a fee to qualify points for trading into other resorts, but you won’t receive blue card benefits. This will allow them to charge a bit less for this benefit which in turn will capture a larger market. The spread between resale and direct can remain because you don’t get all the direct benefits.

 

[RivShore]

I agree. I never thought they would “qualify points” and allow a member to get direct status. I think direct status will remain as it is: you get it now by buying direct. They want a piece of the resale pie. The easiest way to do this is to charge a fee to qualify points for trading into other resorts, but you won’t receive blue card benefits. This will allow them to charge a bit less for this benefit which in turn will capture a larger market. The spread between resale and direct can remain because you don’t get all the direct benefits.

Exactly. Direct purchase can still justify a premium for the blue card and the easy and quick one-stop shopping experience of buying from your guide. And DVC gets 100% margin on the fee (less some minor paper pushing costs). Everyone will then be happy, except the seller of RIV who will not be able to get near the value of L14 resales.

 

[TexasChick123]

Exactly. Direct purchase can still justify a premium for the blue card and the easy and quick one-stop shopping experience of buying from your guide. And DVC gets 100% margin on the fee (less some minor paper pushing costs). Everyone will then be happy, except the seller of RIV who will not be able to get near the value of L14 resales.

Oh...get ready for it. They will also offer to qualify your post-1/19/19 points to allow you to stay in the newer resorts too with no blue card benefits. This will probably drive the cost of the L14 down too because people now have to pay to be able to trade into ALL the properties who weren’t grandfathered in. I own at RIV and some of the L14. I think it’ll take a toll on all of us especially as the L14 starts to dwindle down. As we get closer and closer to 2042 with more and more new properties being built, I think this is going to hurt my L14 property values too. However, who knows what they’ll be selling for at that point?!? Maybe the dip won’t matter because I bought one at $100pp, and it’s worth $150pp in 20 years versus $200pp because you can qualify the post-1/19 points for $50pp. Since none of us can see into the future, it’s really quite impossible to predict with any kind of precision how much these restrictions will affect resale prices long term. Maybe a lot, maybe a little, maybe somewhere in between. Who knows?!?

 

[kboo]

Isn't the work making the initial sale? Every resale was at one point sold by disney. It's like a developer; they don't care if they sell a house for $400k and then five years later the owner sells through a broker for $800k. The goal should be to make a sale that gets someone back to Disney more frequently than they otherwise would for decades; strong resale actually facilitates that imo because if it evidences anything, it is demand for the product (albeit the no - direct product).

I'm sure I sound like a broken record but the resale price indicates they created a great product, now they want to ruin the product to kill resale lol.

I think I am starting to sound like a broken record too, but I don't necessarily think they're trying to "kill" resale but make it different enough of a product that someone who buys resale isn't going to be someone who would have bought direct in any case. I think they're perfectly content to let there be a resale market on the L14, and only take back enough contracts to satisfy the in-park buyers who don't want RIV or RFL. I also think there will still be fairly active OKW 2042 ROFR so they can slowly fix the OKW-E problem. I would expect direct prices for OKW (and SSR) to remain pretty low - those are the resorts from the L14 they'll use to compete with L14 resale. RIV resale is an ok product for someone who already owns sleep-around, grandfathered or other qualified points. At least among DVC owners who already bought direct, almost everyone I know (including myself) broke up their purchases into 100-point or smaller aliquots. A smallish contract like that might be easier to shed assuming all the resale restrictions remain in place - and useful for a split stay for a few days at least in a 1br.

In the Riviera POS they wrote the possibility of qualifying points for a fee, so probably at some point they'll do it.
However, if the current price is $188 and the resale market value is $100, I don't think they'll offer to qualify the points for $50, that would create a way to get the full direct benefits for les than the direct cost, that would be against everything they did until now. So in this scenario, my guess would be that it would cost $90+ per point, so if you buy resale and later you want the direct benefit you end up paying more than buying direct in the first place.

Agree - either you can pay extra to qualify trading into other resorts (or maybe a per-trade fee based on the # of points for the reservation?) that will certainly cost more than if you'd bought direct in the first place. And you still don't get "blue card benefits" as @TexasChick123 suggests.

 

[ELMC]

Oh...get ready for it. They will also offer to qualify your post-1/19/19 points to allow you to stay in the newer resorts too with no blue card benefits. This will probably drive the cost of the L14 down too because people now have to pay to be able to trade into ALL the properties who weren’t grandfathered in. I own at RIV and some of the L14. I think it’ll take a toll on all of us especially as the L14 starts to dwindle down. As we get closer and closer to 2042 with more and more new properties being built, I think this is going to hurt my L14 property values too. However, who knows what they’ll be selling for at that point?!? Maybe the dip won’t matter because I bought one at $100pp, and it’s worth $150pp in 20 years versus $200pp because you can qualify the post-1/19 points for $50pp. Since none of us can see into the future, it’s really quite impossible to predict with any kind of precision how much these restrictions will affect resale prices long term. Maybe a lot, maybe a little, maybe somewhere in between. Who knows?!?

This is such an interesting point and highlights the mentality of DVC owners vis-a-vis other timeshare owners. People who buy at any other system write off their purchase cost on day one. But Disney has not created a timeshare, they've in essence created an appreciating asset that happens to function as a timeshare. In this post TC123 highlights this thinking with the thought that her $100 DVC will probably be worth $150-200 in 20 years. That's the expectation that Disney has created in all of us. It speaks to the success of the product, but something tells me they're not happy about it.

 

[Drewferin]

Wanted to point out the brand new RIV resale contract on Fidelity. 325 points listed at $135 pp... See if anybody drops $44k with resale restrictions. This may answer the supply and demand question.

 

[Jenniebee]

Wow, I am actualy sad for the people who have to sell so soon after buying and didn't even get to set foot in it.

 

[Brianstl]

Wanted to point out the brand new RIV resale contract on Fidelity. 325 points listed at $135 pp... See if anybody drops $44k with resale restrictions. This may answer the supply and demand question.

This will sit for months. I’ll be shocked if this goes for more than $90 pp.

 

[SarahInMN]

Wanted to point out the brand new RIV resale contract on Fidelity. 325 points listed at $135 pp.

I know I am contributing to thread drift but the resort hasn’t opened yet and the sellers must have just bought their points. How is this possible? I can’t even wrap my head around selling 325 points before even using them.

 

[Bing Showei]

I find this discussion oddly fascinating, trying to figure out the logic behind killing a robust resale market.

I don’t think killing the resale market was ever a goal. It’s just owner-borne collateral damage that is of little consequence to Disney in pursuit of getting as much market share as possible with respect to owners buying in. If they could create a resale product that cost as much as a retail product, but is severely crippled, that’s a win for them because they’ll sell the retail every time. For now, they are content with just crippling the resale product and testing if that actually does impact retail sales. My guess is it won’t to any significant degree.

So yeah -- they can try to hurt the resale market, but I think that is a shortsighted thing to do. Ultimately, it will make selling direct a much tougher proposition.

I’m guessing it won’t make much of a difference at all with the resorts selling out. It may take a little bit longer, but any new owner buying in won’t know any other system. Old owners will just ride out their contract. Some will age out of the system by selling, while others will have contracts expire. If Disney can stomach tre slightly depressed sales vs. expectations, this will be a long term win for Disney. And a new batch of owners will know nothing else, not unlike owners who buy resale not caring much that you don’t get discounts, valet parking, free park tickets annually, etc.

Curious, did DVC actually say this or are we just assuming that from their recent changes?

I spoke to a CM in member services today and before hanging up, I struck up a casual conversation around the restrictions and wondered how she felt this helped owners. She went the booking angle first and used the example of owners out there who own 4,000 points who book New Year’s Eve and rent it out shutting owners out from their own home window. She stated that “Disney doesn’t want people making money off of Disney anymore.” That was pretty blunt and honest, I felt.

It was a full throated defense of the restrictions and she said that as a CM for Disney’s timeshare for the last 10 years, she agreed with management that this was a good move. A Disney timeshare is purchased to be enjoyed, not to make money off of. When she brought up how Marriott, and Wyndham does the same exact thing to their timeshare resales, I suggested that it’s unfortunate Disney wants to follow industry standard as opposed to how they used to set industry standards, but she was having none of that. She shared none of that nostalgia or sentimental nonsense. “I’m sure all the heads of all those timeshares talk and this is what all timeshares do.”

She was just a frontline CM so getting into it with her didn’t really make a lot of sense, but there was no reservations on her part about the moves. She delivered her defense of it with conviction and no apologies. I was left with no doubt that this is just the Disney timeshare culture now.

DVC is dead. Long live DVC.

 

[Soap_1984]

How does the resale restriction prevent people from renting exactly? All it will do is make points cheaper and thus easier to rent.

Doesnt sound like the cm really answered the question; dvc has been profitable so why risk it to just spite brokers earning 5-10%. I know she works for disney but all she is saying is "even if it hurts the customer we don't want someone else making money".

This is an honest question, is there a significant number of renters that are robbing people of their ability to get what they want?

 

[Bing Showei]

How does the resale restriction prevent people from renting exactly? All it will do is make points cheaper and thus easier to rent.

Doesnt sound like the cm really answered the question; dvc has been profitable so why risk it to just spite brokers earning 5-10%. I know she works for disney but all she is saying is "even if it hurts the customer we don't want someone else making money".

This is an honest question, is there a significant number of renters that are robbing people of their ability to get what they want?

PM me and I’ll give you her name and extension. You can ask her yourself. Or better, pick up the phone and call MS. I imagine any one of them will be able to express the same sentiments.

The short answer is that the restrictions don’t prevent renting. CM was just toeing the company line. The restrictions in no way prevents the scenario she described. As Zavandor has pointed out upthread, Disney already has contractually outlined, legal recourse for exactly the situation she described: commercial renters.

I have yet to see any explanation as to how the restrictions benefit ownership in any meaningful way. I do think it better positions the retail product against the resale counterpart; what I see as the real reason Disney has implemented the restrictions at every owner’s expense.