"Ladies and Gentlemen" becoming an outdated term?

[mjkacmom]

Ok but there is something there. There are many many girls & boys who seem to naturally act a certain way for what is stereotypical for their genders despite exposure to all types of things & no limitations of the toys or type of play they can engage in. I’ve observed this myself in relatives & my own child & a pp also has said a similar thing. This doesn’t apply to everyone but stereotypical gender behaviors do naturally exist.

ETA: We actually try to encourage less rough & tumble behavior from DS & try to get him to engage in more quiet activities like his female counterparts (our friends’/cousin’s children), but it just ain’t happening. He is who is already.

But you son could still end up identifying as female. Ds21 was a rough and tumble boy when he was younger. He loved balls and cars (played cars all day long). He still loves sports (varsity soccer goalie, club soccer goalie), and played all youth sports. He also loves musical theater (was in the high school productions starting in 8th grade, and in the top choirs). At 6’, 200 pounds, he’s a gentle giant, I can’t imagine him even defending himself. He loves an excuse to wear a suit.

If your son wanted to wear a dress, would you let him? Ds16 has a twin sister and another one 22 months older than him. He absolutely dressed up in tutu’s with his sisters!!

 

[Party.Of.4-NY>>>FL]

Thinking something is stupid or pointless does not in any way mean that person is "offended" by it. Those are two completely different things and I was responding to the latter.

Your right. Silently thinking something is stupid and pointless is completely different than outwardly expressing the wish that it “would just die.”

 

[luvsJack]

This is what we mean when we say gender is a social construct. There is no biological reason for these types of behaviors. It's just what a specific society labels as "boy" or "girl" behavioirs.

But what you and others are not understanding from what we are saying is that when there are NO influences to steer them toward certain activities, MOST will still pick out and play with the traditionally "boy" or "girl" things. Or if not given a choice of the toys, they will make the play more toward what is thought of as stereotypical of their gender.

And it starts very young. The pp's child is 18 months old and is doing it. My own son's first word was "ball" and as soon as he said it whatever was in his hand was going to get thrown. The only influence? The same as dd's. Going to baseball games. But at the same age, she preferred to play with her doll at her brother's games. You can't say I handed him a ball and that's why, because I didn't. He was throwing anything. We bought him balls to try and steer the throwing to just the ball and outside. Did I give her a doll? Not until she sat down in a rocking chair and rocked another toy that she had wrapped up in a blanket. It honestly comes very natural to them.

You want the behavior to not be labeled boy or girl? Well honestly, in the real world, its not. Its play.

 

[skyblue17]

They also shouldn't be told or pushed or even have it mentioned to them that they may be the wrong gender or they aren't really a "boy" or a "girl". Some of them may at some point in their life decide this but as children, they are just children and its not even something that should be discussed.

Who is saying this should happen?

 

[luvsJack]

Who is saying this should happen?

I didn't say that anyone here is saying this should happen. I was referring to the article about the little boy.

 

[LSUmiss]

But you son could still end up identifying as female. Ds21 was a rough and tumble boy when he was younger. He loved balls and cars (played cars all day long). He still loves sports (varsity soccer goalie, club soccer goalie), and played all youth sports. He also loves musical theater (was in the high school productions starting in 8th grade, and in the top choirs). At 6’, 200 pounds, he’s a gentle giant, I can’t imagine him even defending himself. He loves an excuse to wear a suit.

If your son wanted to wear a dress, would you let him? Ds16 has a twin sister and another one 22 months older than him. He absolutely dressed up in tutu’s with his sisters!!

Perhaps, but I honestly think that’s doubtful. I know it’s only one person, but the one transgender person I know was “boy-like” from the beginning. It was no surprise when he announced he was transgender.

To me what you describe of your DS is just that he’s matured into a refined young man which is what I would hope for DS too one day. DH & my deceased father like/liked musical theater & dressing nicely. DH takes longer than me to get ready most of the time lol! My dad actually never played or really even watched sports. DH played baseball his whole life even into college but still enjoys those other things. None of that seems feminine to me so I’m not sure if I’m missing something you were trying to say?

As far as the dress, sure! It’s a fight to wear any clothes some days so if a dress is more agreeable have at it!

 

[tzolkin]

Your right. Silently thinking something is stupid and pointless is completely different than outwardly expressing the wish that it “would just die.”

I honestly do not understand what your point is. Yes, obviously there's a difference between silently or verbally expressing your dislike of something. But like the other post, that is not relevant to what I actually said. Finding something stupid, pointless, annoying, a waste of time and/or money, or disliking it for whatever reason is not the same thing as being OFFENDED by that thing on some deep personal or moral level.

I think that's kind of the point of this entire thread. You can dislike the term "ladies and gentlemen" for a myriad of reasons without being personally offended by it. Disliking and being offended (hurt, insulted, etc) are two different things.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

But what you and others are not understanding from what we are saying is that when there are NO influences to steer them toward certain activities, MOST will still pick out and play with the traditionally "boy" or "girl" things. Or if not given a choice of the toys, they will make the play more toward what is thought of as stereotypical of their gender.

I think it's darn near impossible though in our society to not have ANY influences; we often employ subconscious gender stereotypes even when parents try their hardest not to. And we sure as heck have the rest of society to contend with. If a child is so isolated that they haven't been around anyone else in their lives nor exposed to anything in our society and cultures we normally find that to be a big problem.

Gender stereotypes help us understand how to interact with one another. But they can also be limiting. If we understand how it can limit we can adjust our behaviors when we need to (which I believe is what we've been trying to do in recent years). We might say that a gender stereotype is girls play with dolls but it's far different from telling a boy who does play with dolls that it's girly and he shouldn't do it (I'm using that as a random example from my own life watching my in-laws on my husband's father's side).

The very fact that one would say they 'naturally' have gravitated towards stereotypical boy things means there's an influence somewhere going on. Even families that opt to raise their children in gender neutral environments cannot keep from outside stereotypes in our modern society.

But there's such a difference in pushing for either way really IMO.

What I want is that we see a boy playing with dolls and we don't balk at it. What I want is that we see a girl playing with toy trucks and we don't balk at it. I want to continue to see girls encouraged to be in STEM programs but I also want to see boys encouraged to seek out programs seen as more feminine and I want to see both without the balking at it. The fact that my sister-in-law got a scholarship on the basis of her gender (female) and field of study (engineering) alone tells us something.

I don't think the issue is so much that there are gender stereotypes that exist. It's when we severely limit ourselves in our thinking of them and some people find it very difficult to see when someone doesn't conform.

 

[mjkacmom]

Perhaps, but I honestly think that’s doubtful. I know it’s only one person, but the one transgender person I know was “boy-like” from the beginning. It was no surprise when he announced he was transgender.

To me what you describe of your DS is just that he’s matured into a refined young man which is what I would hope for DS too one day. DH & my deceased father like/liked musical theater & dressing nicely. DH takes longer than me to get ready most of the time lol! My dad actually never played or really even watched sports. DH played baseball his whole life even into college but still enjoys those other things. None of that seems feminine to me so I’m not sure if I’m missing something you were trying to say?

As far as the dress, sure! It’s a fight to wear any clothes some days so if a dress is more agreeable have at it!

I think the fact that you only know one transgendered person is really clouding your perspective. I personally know several, and know parent of many more. One of dd21’s childhood friends went from Katie to Aiden junior year of high school. Katie was a tomboy, but never indicated to others that she felt like a boy. The friendship faded around age 12 or so. Actually, I don’t know any transgendered teen/young adult who started questioning their gender early on.

 

[LSUmiss]

I think it's darn near impossible though in our society to not have ANY influences; we often employ subconscious gender stereotypes even when parents try their hardest not to. And we sure as heck have the rest of society to contend with. If a child is so isolated that they haven't been around anyone else in their lives nor exposed to anything in our society and cultures we normally find that to be a big problem.

Gender stereotypes help us understand how to interact with one another. But they can also be limiting. If we understand how it can limit we can adjust our behaviors when we need to (which I believe is what we've been trying to do in recent years). We might say that a gender stereotype is girls play with dolls but it's far different from telling a boy who does play with dolls that it's girly and he shouldn't do it (I'm using that as a random example from my own life watching my in-laws on my husband's father's side).

The very fact that one would say they 'naturally' have gravitated towards stereotypical boy things means there's an influence somewhere going on. Even families that opt to raise their children in gender neutral environments cannot keep from outside stereotypes in our modern society.

But there's such a difference in pushing for either way really IMO.

What I want is that we see a boy playing with dolls and we don't balk at it. What I want is that we see a girl playing with toy trucks and we don't balk at it. I want to continue to see girls encouraged to be in STEM programs but I also want to see boys encouraged to seek out programs seen as more feminine and I want to see both without the balking at it. The fact that my sister-in-law got a scholarship on the basis of her gender (female) and field of study (engineering) alone tells us something.

I don't think the issue is so much that there are gender stereotypes that exist. It's when we severely limit ourselves in our thinking of them and some people find it very difficult to see when someone doesn't conform.

Here’s where I disagree. Most of us agree that some kids are born gender neutral or with the “wrong” gender so if that’s the case stereotypical gender behaviors must somehow also be something kids are born with otherwise you can be born with the first 2.

 

[kiddo76]

But what you and others are not understanding from what we are saying is that when there are NO influences to steer them toward certain activities, MOST will still pick out and play with the traditionally "boy" or "girl" things. Or if not given a choice of the toys, they will make the play more toward what is thought of as stereotypical of their gender.

And it starts very young. The pp's child is 18 months old and is doing it. My own son's first word was "ball" and as soon as he said it whatever was in his hand was going to get thrown. The only influence? The same as dd's. Going to baseball games. But at the same age, she preferred to play with her doll at her brother's games. You can't say I handed him a ball and that's why, because I didn't. He was throwing anything. We bought him balls to try and steer the throwing to just the ball and outside. Did I give her a doll? Not until she sat down in a rocking chair and rocked another toy that she had wrapped up in a blanket. It honestly comes very natural to them.

You want the behavior to not be labeled boy or girl? Well honestly, in the real world, its not. Its play.

I understand what you are saying. However, the second a child is born, they start having preferences...breast or bottle, right or left breast, being bounced or rocked. And the second a child is born, those preferences are influenced by caretakers. By the time a child is 18 months old, they have had their preferences influenced thousands of times.

To say "most boys/girls act this way" is insulting to the boys/girls who don't act like "most".

 

[skyblue17]

I understand what you are saying. However, the second a child is born, they start having preferences...breast or bottle, right or left breast, being bounced or rocked. And the second a child is born, those preferences are influenced by caretakers. By the time a child is 18 months old, they have had their preferences influenced thousands of times.

Not to mention that children with siblings will likely be introduced to different things than their oldest sibling or only children might've been.

 

[LSUmiss]

I think the fact that you only know one transgendered person is really clouding your perspective. I personally know several, and know parent of many more. One of dd21’s childhood friends went from Katie to Aiden junior year of high school. Katie was a tomboy, but never indicated to others that she felt like a boy. The friendship faded around age 12 or so. Actually, I don’t know any transgendered teen/young adult who started questioning their gender early on.

Actually, I think it’s both. I think that fact that you know so many clouds your perspective too into thinking this a common thing. I think it’s still really rare. It’s not that the person I know questioned his gender early on. I don’t know. But, I do know what we all observed of him so no one was shocked when he told us.

 

[palavra]

I can’t agree more. We did absolutely nothing to encourage DS to be a boy, but as a young child he is already all boy! He loves outside, sticks, mud, puddles, balls, trucks, wheels etc more than any other toys or things he has been exposed to. He is around girl children & has no interest in the things they play with or do. I’ve seen this behavior a lot in other young children both boys & girls that I have been around. That’s why I believe the non traditional gender thing is definitely an anomaly. I do think it’s something ppl may be born with or that develops very early on, but it’s definitely not the norm. So this idea that there are so many teens struggling with their gender identity is absurd to me. I think that has a lot more to do with outside influences at that point.

And yet, my cute little girl with the blond pigtails was "all boy" from the time she was a toddler. Yes, I encouraged girl things in her life. We painted her room pink and lilac; I bought cute dresses and bows for her hair; I bought her dolls and play makeup,etc. She loved to play in the mud with sticks, wanted a train set and cars, liked to build things and was very rambunctious. She wasn't very feminine at all despite looking like a cuter version of Cindy Brady. At 17, she is still not very feminine although she does not want to be a boy. I have long suspected that there is a spectrum for gender, and I am glad that is finally being recognized because I was also not a very feminine girl even though I was more girl like than my daughter. Although the intent isn't malicious in any way, even terms like "all boy" are often used in a very positive way by parents almost as a source of pride. Was i proud of my "almost all boy" girl? Of course. She is who she is, and that is fine with me.

 

[palavra]

Actually, I think it’s both. I think that fact that you know so many clouds your perspective too into thinking this a common thing. I think it’s still really rare. It’s not that the person I know questioned his gender early on. I don’t know. But, I do know what we all observed of him so no one was shocked when he told us.

But maybe it has never been as rare as you think it is because our society has had such a strong taboo against trans people. It is possible for something to seem rare because being open about it is so negatively viewed in society that it is dangerous to admit to.

 

[LSUmiss]

I understand what you are saying. However, the second a child is born, they start having preferences...breast or bottle, right or left breast, being bounced or rocked. And the second a child is born, those preferences are influenced by caretakers. By the time a child is 18 months old, they have had their preferences influenced thousands of times.

To say "most boys/girls act this way" is insulting to the boys/girls who don't act like "most".

Most ppl are right handed, is it insulting to left-handed ppl to say that? No, it’s just one of those things. And, give me an example of how I could have influenced DS’ preference to throw fake fruit?? That’s what’s insulting & dismissive imo to tell me what I observed with my own eyes b/c I just don’t understand how things work especially when I have been formally educated in child development. I have to accept that some kids are just born gender neutral or with the “wrong” gender, but then if DS prefers stereotypical boy things or play, then it’s b/c of my influence. With your argument, transgender kids must have had their preferences influenced thousands of times so that they then identify with the opposite of their gender.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

And, no one said they did I'm one of the two posters who commented about gender reveal parties. Neither of us implied in ANY way that anyone is offended by or has a "problem with" these parties. We just both said that we PERSONALLY aren't fans of them and don't really see the point.

That said, you (and a few others on this thread) seem to be implying that there is one unified ideology that is "LGBT" that all who fall under that heading would agree upon. Almost like a specific religion where there are beliefs that are agreed upon and held in common by it's members. That is far from the reality. It's more like the general heading "Religion" where there are many different religions within that have completely different beliefs, lifestyles, etc.

And just like with Christianity, Islam, etc., these little religions don't agree on everything or even necessarily like each other. Gay men and lesbians tend to be fairly vocal about hating each other. Demographic studies of the US show that they generally don't even live in the same areas because they share little in common. The Michigan Womyn's Music Festival (a lesbian safe-haven) was shut down a few years ago over the controversy that they would only allow people "born in female bodies" (banning trans women from attending). So, there's definitely not one unified "LGBT" position on gender identity.



This is absolutely an issue. My oldest was part of the trans community for several years and eventually realized how stifling it was for her. There was a strong pressure to "pick a label" and stick with it. There was a tremendous focus on what's "masculine" and "feminine" and when she started to question some of this she would be strongly attacked and threatened online and even among some of her friends at college. The belief was that she wasn't being "tolerant", but really she was just questioning the labels and why certain things were considered to be exclusive of one gender or the other. (Does one really have to become a man just because one doesn't 100% fit the mold for a woman or vice versa?)

Sexuality also plays a role into all of this. There are some subsets of people (among both trans and cisgender) who uphold the normal/natural nature of heterosexuality so strongly that they believe if you are attracted to someone of the same gender, that you must be wrong. i.e. If you're a female attracted to women, you're really supposed to be a male. So for some there's a pressure to transition in order to have their relationships accepted as a more traditional male/female coupling rather than being seen as gay or lesbian.

*Note... I'm not referring to everyone who is trans in the above, just specific people/groups whose beliefs are very rigid. Even if they're not the majority, they still can have an impact on some young people who are trying to navigate questions of their sexuality and identity.

I LOVE the way you explained this. Thank you

This is what we mean when we say gender is a social construct. There is no biological reason for these types of behaviors. It's just what a specific society labels as "boy" or "girl" behavioirs.

One word: Testosterone

https://www.healthline.com/health/low-testosterone/testosterone-levels-by-age
http://theconversation.com/health-check-do-boys-really-have-a-testosterone-spurt-at-age-four-82587
"Testosterone first increases to puberty-like levels in boys during the first two trimesters of pregnancy. This testosterone is responsible for the development of the ***** and scrotum, a process known as the masculinisation of external genitalia.

The second testosterone increase occurs in the first six months or so of life. This mini-puberty results in boys’ genitalia briefly looking more prominent, which many parents notice.

Puberty is the third and final rise in testosterone, with levels increasing 10- to 20-fold over two to three years. Puberty is a time of major physical growth accompanied by significant behaviour changes, clearly influenced by brain development.

So, what else can explain behaviour?

So is there an alternative explanation for boys’ behaviour at this age, which parents regularly report?

We see differences in boys’ and girls’ brains and behaviour well before puberty. Rises in testosterone in the womb and during the mini-puberty in the first six months of life likely explain these.

Studies that look at behaviour in four to five-year-olds tend to focus on play and social interactions, because these are what children this age do most of the time.

Boys and girls this age tend to have different styles of play.

Such studies show boys and girls this age generally have different ways of playing and communicating. Boys’ play is generally more physical, engaging with mobile toys or building structures. Girls generally have more socially interactive play, and are more articulate.

Interestingly, girls with congenital adrenal hyperplasia, when they are exposed to high levels of testosterone in the womb, tend to have more “rough and tumble” play styles, consistent with a testosterone effect on early brain development."

I’m sorry, but that is outrageous to me if for nothing other than side effects at that young age. Like I said before, we don’t let 8 yr old make other medical decisions for themselves so how is this ok??

I agree. Testosterone influences brain activity, there is no disputing that. I do think, however, there is also likely a combination of both physical and social conditioning involved. To what degree is a question and probably varies individually.

 

[luvsJack]

I understand what you are saying. However, the second a child is born, they start having preferences...breast or bottle, right or left breast, being bounced or rocked. And the second a child is born, those preferences are influenced by caretakers. By the time a child is 18 months old, they have had their preferences influenced thousands of times.

To say "most boys/girls act this way" is insulting to the boys/girls who don't act like "most".

The majority then. How else would you say it? Its not some, its not a few, its not any of that. 16 years and 100s of kids has shown me that it is truly MOST.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Here’s where I disagree. Most of us agree that some kids are born gender neutral or with the “wrong” gender so if that’s the case stereotypical gender behaviors must somehow also be something kids are born with otherwise you can be born with the first 2.

I'm speaking globally here. Each society employs gender stereotypes in some way. There are roles doled out that conform to a specific gender. Some societies allow for less rigidness and some don't.

Chemicals in the brain can interact with how we process things but it's the gender stereotype we employ that assigns what we make of that. That isn't the same to me as speaking in terms of anatomical functions and appearances where an individual may fully transition to another gender. Adjusting and changing what one considers a stereotype of a gender can't fully help if for example one wants to have a specific sex life to put bluntly that of the gender one most identifies with. So I would say you're talking about two different things IMO.

 

[LSUmiss]

And yet, my cute little girl with the blond pigtails was "all boy" from the time she was a toddler. Yes, I encouraged girl things in her life. We painted her room pink and lilac; I bought cute dresses and bows for her hair; I bought her dolls and play makeup,etc. She loved to play in the mud with sticks, wanted a train set and cars, liked to build things and was very rambunctious. She wasn't very feminine at all despite looking like a cuter version of Cindy Brady. At 17, she is still not very feminine although she does not want to be a boy. I have long suspected that there is a spectrum for gender, and I am glad that is finally being recognized because I was also not a very feminine girl even though I was more girl like than my daughter. Although the intent isn't malicious in any way, even terms like "all boy" are often used in a very positive way by parents almost as a source of pride. Was i proud of my "almost all boy" girl? Of course. She is who she is, and that is fine with me.

Well according to a pp she might still want to be a boy. My cousin didn’t announce it until he was 20.
But, I’m not a typical girly girl either & that’s fine. I don’t think anyone is advocating for that on either gender “side”. We have similar arguments in that your DD was who she was despite your influence & so far so is DS. And me & another poster have mentioned that we have observed boys & girls exhibiting typically boy/girl behavior from an early age despite little influence so there must be something inherit in the gender you’re born with. Otherwise, transgender ppl wouldn’t feel so drawn to wanting to be the other gender. Sometimes those things go against the the norm & that’s ok. The point is that we accept differences. They don’t have to be made to seem to be as frequently occurring as the norm. Left-handed ppl are not as common as right-handed ppl. We don’t say something must be wrong with left-handed ppl, but we also don’t try to insist that it’s as common as right-handed ppl so the left-handed ppl don’t feel bad. It is what it is.