"Ladies and Gentlemen" becoming an outdated term?

[skyblue17]

We don’t say something must be wrong with left-handed ppl

Ah, but they used to! And things are made unnecessarily more difficult for left-handed people in the world. It was another thing that was "different" about people and the people who weren't "different" just were like "ah, just deal with it."

 

[LSUmiss]

I LOVE the way you explained this. Thank you


One word: Testosterone

https://www.healthline.com/health/low-testosterone/testosterone-levels-by-age
http://theconversation.com/health-check-do-boys-really-have-a-testosterone-spurt-at-age-four-82587
"Testosterone first increases to puberty-like levels in boys during the first two trimesters of pregnancy. This testosterone is responsible for the development of the ***** and scrotum, a process known as the masculinisation of external genitalia.

The second testosterone increase occurs in the first six months or so of life. This mini-puberty results in boys’ genitalia briefly looking more prominent, which many parents notice.

Puberty is the third and final rise in testosterone, with levels increasing 10- to 20-fold over two to three years. Puberty is a time of major physical growth accompanied by significant behaviour changes, clearly influenced by brain development.

So, what else can explain behaviour?

So is there an alternative explanation for boys’ behaviour at this age, which parents regularly report?

We see differences in boys’ and girls’ brains and behaviour well before puberty. Rises in testosterone in the womb and during the mini-puberty in the first six months of life likely explain these.

Studies that look at behaviour in four to five-year-olds tend to focus on play and social interactions, because these are what children this age do most of the time.

Boys and girls this age tend to have different styles of play.

Such studies show boys and girls this age generally have different ways of playing and communicating. Boys’ play is generally more physical, engaging with mobile toys or building structures. Girls generally have more socially interactive play, and are more articulate.

Interestingly, girls with congenital adrenal hyperplasia, when they are exposed to high levels of testosterone in the womb, tend to have more “rough and tumble” play styles, consistent with a testosterone effect on early brain development."


I agree. Testosterone influences brain activity, there is no disputing that. I do think, however, there is also likely a combination of both physical and social conditioning involved. To what degree is a question and probably varies individually.

Agreed. I fully acknowledge that parents & others have great influence. I think all of us or a combo or “nature & nurture”. But, until I had my own child, I didn’t understand how much nature played a roll. I was all team nurture before.

 

[LSUmiss]

Ah, but they used to! And things are made unnecessarily more difficult for left-handed people in the world. It was another thing that was "different" about people and the people who weren't "different" just were like "ah, just deal with it."

Ok but I’m not advocating we not accept ppl who are different. My point was that we don’t need to make it appear to be the norm to accept it.

 

[luvsJack]

Not to mention that children with siblings will likely be introduced to different things than their oldest sibling or only children might've been.

My son with the "ball" and throwing is my oldest. No siblings until he was 2 1/2 years old. He was old enough to sit up and old enough for it to be his first word. I would have to go look at his baby book. But no one had played ball with him, he was too little at the time.

Some of the children we kept were also oldest or only children. One little boy was being raised by a single mom who was a only also. His caretakers (other than us) were his mom and his grandmother. No men, no other little boys. His first day, he ran to the blocks and trucks. He loved going outside and running and playing whatever the game was of the day with the boys. His mother was shocked when she picked him up. She thought he would gravitate toward the quiet little girls that preferred to sit and color and draw all day (let me clarify that I literally mean there were 3 little girls that this is what they liked to do not that little girls all prefer to sit and color)

Children have their own likes and dislikes of toys and experiences. It doesn't have to be connected to outside influence. It really can just be their preference. If a boy prefers to play with dolls, so be it. If a girl prefers to do whatever is considered "more boy", so be it. That doesn't make them anything at all but a CHILD.

That is my point. I have seen too many people irl that get caught up with this whole gender stuff and decide their boy should have been a girl or whatever. That does not need to happen.

 

[skyblue17]

My son with the "ball" and throwing is my oldest. No siblings until he was 2 1/2 years old. He was old enough to sit up and old enough for it to be his first word. I would have to go look at his baby book. But no one had played ball with him, he was too little at the time.

Some of the children we kept were also oldest or only children. One little boy was being raised by a single mom who was a only also. His caretakers (other than us) were his mom and his grandmother. No men, no other little boys. His first day, he ran to the blocks and trucks. He loved going outside and running and playing whatever the game was of the day with the boys. His mother was shocked when she picked him up. She thought he would gravitate toward the quiet little girls that preferred to sit and color and draw all day (let me clarify that I literally mean there were 3 little girls that this is what they liked to do not that little girls all prefer to sit and color)

Children have their own likes and dislikes of toys and experiences. It doesn't have to be connected to outside influence. It really can just be their preference. If a boy prefers to play with dolls, so be it. If a girl prefers to do whatever is considered "more boy", so be it. That doesn't make them anything at all but a CHILD.

That is my point. I have seen too many people irl that get caught up with this whole gender stuff and decide their boy should have been a girl or whatever. That does not need to happen.

I admit, I'm a little confused about how me speaking generally, again, is being taken as if it applies to everyone. It doesn't. However, most likely a first born boy is not going to have Barbies in his house, but if he has a sister, he might. This is all I'm saying.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

But, until I had my own child, I didn’t understand how much nature played a roll. I was all team nurture before.

I'll be honest when you say things like this it almost sounds like you're invalidating the opinions of those who don't have children. You absolutely may not be meaning to but it comes off that way to me personally. Maybe also because I also felt that way with your prior question to another poster asking if they had a child. I apologize in advance if that it not your intent

Also I think it's salient to say your experience is your experience and may not be reflective of others (although yes I know generally speaking this goes without saying) Nature vs nurture is still very much being studied all the time and I hope will continue to be especially as our societies evolve. In your opinion in your home life nature may have taken the lead.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

My DS - a twin, with a sister - also began throwing things from an early age. That evolved into hitting things. By three or four he was so proficient at hitting things he one day hit a line drive with a whiffle ball to my mother's eye which caused her to have to take a trip to the Mass Eye and Ear Emergency Room for what they thought was a detached retina, and ever since that day, one pupil has been much bigger than the other, causing quite a stir when she has to see any new doctors! And put it this way, he is still playing baseball in college. We also have pictures of him dressing up in his sister's bathing suits and tutus, etc, he and his sister had a lot of fun playing together. (And she can also whack a whiffleball pretty good!)

I did see something interesting one day. We have a transgender child in our neighborhood, male to female. DS was out in the yard playing whiffleball with his friends, and this child was out playing with the girls in the neighborhood. All the girls went over to a swing set and began playing on the swings, but this child didn't go with them. She stood next to the fence with her hands on it watching DS and his friends play, and didn't move for probably a half an hour. She has also knocked on our door before to see if DS will come out to play catch with her. I don't recall any other young girls in our neighborhood ever doing that before.

Speaking of DS - this thread made me think of this. He had to write a paper in his college sociology class on why it is BEST to raise a child gender fluid. I went to the same school and remember writing a similar paper by picking a side of our choosing (if I recall the subject was infanticide) and making a cohesive argument one way or another, for or against. FTR, my argument was "for", claiming that if late term abortion was ok, then infanticide should be, too. IIR I got an A on that paper. And no, I do not think infanticidem or LTA is ok, it was the argument that was important, and being able to see both sides of an issue. Idk if the latter is always being taught in colleges today.

 

[LSUmiss]

I'll be honest when you say things like this it almost sounds like you're invalidating the opinions of those who don't have children. You absolutely may not be meaning to but it comes off that way to me personally. Maybe also because I also felt that way with your prior question to another poster asking if they had a child. I apologize in advance if that it not your intent

Also I think it's salient to say your experience is your experience and may not be reflective of others (although yes I know generally speaking this goes without saying) Nature vs nurture is still very much being studied all the time and I hope will continue to be especially as our societies evolve. In your opinion in your home life nature may have taken the lead.

I’m saying that b/c I was on the other side, if you will, I was steadfast in my opinion until I had my own opposite experience with it. If you have not experienced both “sides” then your (collective) opinion would be one-sided & limited to your own experience. I’m not claiming to end the debate on nature vs nurture, but I am saying that before having the experience of having my own child, I did not realize how little influence I have over who he is & that is in contrary to what I thought I knew before.

 

[LSUmiss]

My DS - a twin, with a sister - also began throwing things from an early age. That evolved into hitting things. By three or four he was so proficient at hitting things he one day hit a line drive with a whiffle ball to my mother's eye which caused her to have to take a trip to the Mass Eye and Ear Emergency Room for what they thought was a detached retina, and ever since that day, one pupil has been much bigger than the other, causing quite a stir when she has to see any new doctors! And put it this way, he is still playing baseball in college. We also have pictures of him dressing up in his sister's bathing suits and tutus, etc, he and his sister had a lot of fun playing together. (And she can also whack a whiffleball pretty good!)

I did see something interesting one day. We have a transgender child in our neighborhood, male to female. DS was out in the yard playing whiffleball with his friends, and this child was out playing with the girls in the neighborhood. All the girls went over to a swing set and began playing on the swings, but this child didn't go with them. She stood next to the fence with her hands on it watching DS and his friends play, and didn't move for probably a half an hour. She has also knocked on our door before to see if DS will come out to play catch with her. I don't recall any other young girls in our neighborhood ever doing that before.

Speaking of DS - this thread made me think of this. He had to write a paper in his college sociology class on why it is BEST to raise a child gender fluid. I went to the same school and remember writing a similar paper by picking a side of our choosing (if I recall the subject was infanticide) and making a cohesive argument one way or another, for or against. FTR, my argument was "for", claiming that if late term abortion was ok, then infanticide should be, too. IIR I got an A on that paper. And no, I do not think infanticidem or LTA is ok, it was the argument that was important, and being able to see both sides of an issue. Idk if the latter is always being taught in colleges today.

Funny about the throwing (not the injury part). But DS & I joke b/c DH was a pitcher in college. I say this behavior is his fault (although his mom says he wasn’t like DS as a kid).

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I’m saying that b/c I was on the other side, if you will, I was steadfast in my opinion until I had my own opposite experience with it. If you have not experienced both “sides” then your (collective) opinion would be one-sided & limited to your own experience. I’m not claiming to end the debate on nature vs nurture, but I am saying that before having the experience of having my own child, I did not realize how little influence I have over who he is & that is in contrary to what I thought I knew before.

OK. I gotcha. But it still comes off a certain way though again apologies if I'm reading it wrong (I might be in your opinion for sure). I'm sure as you know people in your profession don't have to have children in order to be in that profession. I think it's different to say you've added to your knowledge and experience by having a child rather than ignoring your knowledge and experience when you didn't.

I think you sell yourself short in terms of influence but that's purely my opinion

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Lots of things change when you experience them yourself. And this could go any way. I'm sure many posting here with great knowledge are doing so because they have experienced the gender issue in one way or another firsthand, probably to themselves or someone they're close with. Having cancer is something you really can't fathom until it hits you or someone you love. Same with having children. I worked in a pediatric ER before I had kids and was always kind and sympathetic - but I also went home at the end of every day leaving whatever problems I'd encountered that day there, so although I'd experienced them (and some were really BAD), I wasn't overly affected by them. When I had to go to that same ER with my own kids it was a whole different experience. I'd say being a parent you see and experience things in a whole different light, too. I've worked with dying patients virtually my whole life, but having a parent dying myself is a whole new ballgame. That's just the way it is. It doesn't mean that we can't work with or support causes if we haven't experienced them personally; it just means that when we do ourselves, there are things and feelings and reactions, etc, we never could've otherwise imagined. JMO. I completly understand what LSUMiss was saying there.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Lots of things change when you experience them yourself. And this could go any way. I'm sure many posting here with great knowledge are doing so because they have experienced the gender issue in one way or another firsthand, probably to themselves or someone they're close with. Having cancer is something you really can't fathom until it hits you or someone you love. Same with having children. I worked in a pediatric ER before I had kids and was always kind and sympathetic - but I also went home at the end of every day leaving whatever problems I'd encountered that day there, so although I'd experienced them (and some were really BAD), I wasn't overly affected by them. When I had to go to that same ER with my own kids it was a whole different experience. I'd say being a parent you see and experience things in a whole different light, too. I've worked with dying patients virtually my whole life, but having a parent dying myself is a whole new ballgame. That's just the way it is. It doesn't mean that we can't work with or support causes if we haven't experienced them personally; it just means that when we do ourselves, there are things and feelings and reactions, etc, we never could've otherwise imagined. JMO. I completly understand what LSUMiss was saying there.

I get what she's saying too. That doesn't mean I don't see comments here and there that lead me to form an opinion

 

[mrodgers]

They are not the same thing. Just because a person is biologically a female doesn't mean that they identify and present that way.

Exactly, thus why remove the symbol for a biological female because of gender confusion if we are to agree with the changing of what gender is? Or do girls who think they are boys no longer have a period? Maybe boys who wear dresses start to get their period?

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I’m sorry, but that is outrageous to me if for nothing other than side effects at that young age. Like I said before, we don’t let 8 yr old make other medical decisions for themselves so how is this ok??

I think I somehow put this quote in wrong before and didn't really answer it the way I wanted to. But yes, I agree that there could be concerning side effects, and that we don't generally let children that age make life altering decisions.

Look at that case of the 9 yr old boy last week that set fire to his family's trailer killing five members of his family. (There was a thread here about it.) That boy, even though he admitted to the murders, would only be looking at probation, followed by freedom at age 18 simply because a child that age cannot be held accountable long term for his actions, and no prison time - there are no laws on the books about it. There was a lot of sympathy for that boy's situation, too, if I recall.

ETA from the article posted (in post #410) - is there any sympathy for this seven year old boy whose mother wants to completely alter his body chemistry at age 8 or 9? Is this something that could wait until the child is at an age where he could make the decision for himself?

 

[skyblue17]

Exactly, thus why remove the symbol for a biological female because of gender confusion if we are to agree with the changing of what gender is? Or do girls who think they are boys no longer have a period? Maybe boys who wear dresses start to get their period?

On the other hand, why have it at all? Do we need that symbol to know the function of the product?

And, I'm a little confused about boys who wear dresses getting their periods? Maybe that is your point?

 

[mrodgers]

Yes everything round to DS is a ball! We never even gave him a ball. The first stuff he started throwing were fake fruits from a kitchen set & this was at 9 mos old. The boy likes to throw. That’s not something I taught him & it’s actually more of a challenge to try to teach him NOT to throw! He has a doll stroller at “school” that he plays with but he’s obsessed with the wheels. All more typical “girl” toys that he finds a more typical “boy” way to play with.

Mine was the same way with anything round, except she's my daughter. Oldest went nuts over balls. We had to avoid those big basket of balls in stores because she would go nuts if she saw it.

The youngest loved cars. She had a fantastic collection of Matchbox and Hotwheels. We sat at the beach together and I showed her how I use to pack the sand down for roads with the cheap beach shovel. We built castles and garages to drive her cars around. I loved it.

They were still girls, just girls that liked balls and cars. There is no need to confuse them into thinking they are boys because they like things typically liked by boys.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I get what she's saying too. That doesn't mean I don't see comments here and there that lead me to form an opinion

Of course you can and should have an opinion. Everyone can have an opinion! My point, though, is that opinions can evolve or change when you experience something yourself firsthand.

 

[tzolkin]

Here’s where I disagree. Most of us agree that some kids are born gender neutral or with the “wrong” gender so if that’s the case stereotypical gender behaviors must somehow also be something kids are born with otherwise you can be born with the first 2.

I think the problem is that it's a mix of the two so it's really impossible to say that something is all "nature" or all "nurture". You seem very insistent that your child likes "boy" things because he's a boy. While I agree that children have natural preferences, that doesn't mean that everything he does that's "stereotypically masculine" is BECAUSE he's a boy. There are plenty of 18mo old girls who naturally enjoy all the same things your son does.

If we are to go with the logic that your son likes throwing balls and whatever else because he's a boy, then it would follow that a female child who also enjoys those things must "really" be a boy too. Obviously I recognize that you don't really believe that, but that's what your posts seem to imply when you keep repeating that he likes all these things "because he's a boy" and that absolutely nothing could possibly have influenced his preferences other than his biological sex.

I think in general most people on here probably agree with you-- there are some behaviors and preferences that kids are born with, and that the majority of boys or girls prefer most (but certainly not all) of the things that are traditionally associated with their gender. It's just the way that some of your posts have been phrased I think makes it seem like your views are more extreme than they actually are (like what I posted above)

Agreed. I fully acknowledge that parents & others have great influence. I think all of us or a combo or “nature & nurture”. But, until I had my own child, I didn’t understand how much nature played a roll. I was all team nurture before.

I too was surprised that nurture was not the only factor, but in some different ways than you've experienced (which is probably why I don't feel as strongly as you about the gender part as you do). My oldest child was extremely well behaved-- could attend college lectures for hours at a time with no snacks/toys/distractions, never let go of my hand anywhere, was very "ladylike", etc. I could have assumed this was due to my fantastic parenting skills or the fact that she was a girl, but my second girl was completely different-- she could climb up anything, would run away from you in a store and never even look back, etc. There were definitely "natural" differences between the two, but those were differences in personality, not differences based on their sex.

Several of my friends over the years have had extremely wild boys. While there may be some "natural" influence in what they are drawn to, their behavior is definitely influenced by nurture and the parents are constantly focused on how every single thing the kids do or say is because "they're boys". It's honestly insulting to me because my son has never behaved in the way that all these adults seem to believe is "normal" for boys. I've even had people say, "Well, DS isn't a typical/normal/whatever boy" and imply that there's something wrong with my son because he is well behaved and doesn't enjoy sports. Perhaps their sons would have other interests too, but they don't allow them into their homes because "those are for girls".

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Of course you can and should have an opinion. Everyone can have an opinion! My point, though, is that opinions can evolve or change when you experience something yourself firsthand.

Well of course they can I totally get you there.

I wasn't implying one can have their own opinions that have shifted and changed by having children or over time though my follow up comment did address that aspect. I was more originally talking about opinions one has of others if that makes sense.

 

[mjkacmom]

Actually, I think it’s both. I think that fact that you know so many clouds your perspective too into thinking this a common thing. I think it’s still really rare. It’s not that the person I know questioned his gender early on. I don’t know. But, I do know what we all observed of him so no one was shocked when he told us.

I think that the more educated the area, and wealthier the area (these tend to overlap if you look at tables and charts), the more tolerant folks are. Therefore, folks are more comfortable coming out. I think differences are more accepted and less feared. Do your schools have policies regarding transgender individuals and bathrooms/locker rooms? Ours have for almost 10 years now.