This is just so sad,,and makes me ask WHY would someone do this?? I don't call it 'playing'??

[ronandannette]

This is If you have common sense, cruises are reasonably safe. Prior to this story, how many stories have you heard about children being injured on cruise ships? I'm betting the answer is NONE, and it's not because ships aren't full of children. If they were dangerous, we'd hear more stories like this.

She didn't say accidents don't happen - she simply said they're not publicized, and in fairness, anything less than a very grave injury or death wouldn't be reported no matter where it occurred. Her point is that a cruiseship is not inherently dangerous, and the bolded statement is 100% correct.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

The most dangerous place for a child on a cruise ship: a private balcony. A child could -- with the help of a chair -- go over those railings, which are not as high and are straight above the ocean (whereas most public area railings are "tiered" like a wedding cake -- if you fell, you'd fall to a lower floor, just like Chloe did).

We’ve only cruised with Disney - four sailings, beginning when my kids were 6. Safety was a concern of ours, too (as I'm sure it is with most people).

I used to have a Tag here that said “I prefer the single bath”. That, basically meant we booked the cheapest, inside rooms with no windows (and the only ones with just one bathroom; higher category staterooms had split baths in two separate rooms - which, personally, I don't particularly like). Part of that, of course, was the cost. (IIR our first cruise in 2003 cost just $1600 for four of us, not counting flights and extras.) But it also just felt safe; same with the porthole rooms (having a large, round window that doesn't open).

We did splurge one time for a verandah (private balcony) and here was our experience. The door to the balcony was quite heavy and would've been rather difficult for a child to operate. (I want to say the handle was "child proofed", too, but I can't recall that in detail, exactly.) Our kids were seven on that cruise, and we set rules long before the sailing about when and how they were allowed out there. (A pp mentioned being an EMT - I can relate as I worked in a major pediatric ER for several years, so I was often extra careful with my own kids having experienced some of the crazy, awful, unimaginable things that can happen to kids.) When we did sit out there with them, they weren't allowed to climb on the railings or kneel (not stand) by themselves on a chair up against the railings without us right there with them. Idk how other people handle it.

On a later sailing our kids were older and friends had a verandah and I wasn't too worried at that point as they knew the drill by then and gave us no reason to worry, but we did still supervise.

The one scary thing we did have happen was when we sailed with a large group of friends and family. Our kids were ten then. Around 2am we heard a knock on our stateroom door. It was puzzling as to who it could be, as that had never happened before, but I figured maybe one of our friends was sick and needed help or something. DH went to open the door, and to our shock and amazement, our DS was standing there, outside our room. DH pulled him in. He was apparently sleepwalking, and was mumbling about "going up to watch the sunrise". Yikes!! We hadn't heard him leave the room, but thereafter we put suitcases in front of the door so at least we'd hear him if it ever happened again - which it never has in all our trips on either land or sea. Today we joke with him that we're glad he didn't do a "Peter Pan" off the top deck or something, but it just goes to show that even with the tightest supervision, weird things can sometimes happen.

In this case in the OP, however, I do feel that the RC ship appears to be safe for children. This horrible tragedy would not have happened had it not been for the grandfather's foolish actions. At the beginning of this thread I said I had no sympathy for the grandfather, only for the family, and someone I'm pretty sure said, "Wow". From the beginning of this story I couldn't understand why initial reports weren't believed. It seemed like a lot of people were trying to rationalize his behavior to say that it couldn't be his fault. I still don't understand his reasons for doing what he did, on what should've been such a terrific day. He seemed so cavalier with her safety that it just boggles the mind to think that he could do such a thing with someone he supposedly loved so much. I'm glad to have seen the video because it verifies that those initial reports were probably pretty accurate, and I can see why the PR authorities moved forward with charges. My sympathies still primarily lie with the family. The video proves his actions were not reasonably safe by any means, and personally, I'm glad we can put it to rest, as, really, a whole industry's reputation was at stake.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

She didn't say accidents don't happen - she simply said they're not publicized, and in fairness, anything less than a very grave injury or death wouldn't be reported no matter where it occurred. Her point is that a cruiseship is not inherently dangerous, and the bolded statement is 100% correct.

There used to be (might still be, haven't looked at it or for it in a while) a website that listed all the reportable incidents at sea on all cruise lines. It was pretty eye opening.

Found it:

http://www.cruisejunkie.com/events.html

 

[DLgal]

In this case in the OP, however, I do feel that the RC ship appears to be safe for children. This horrible tragedy would not have happened had it not been for the grandfather's foolish actions. At the beginning of this thread I said I had no sympathy for the grandfather, only for the family, and someone I'm pretty sure said, "Wow". From the beginning of this story I couldn't understand why initial reports weren't believed. It seemed like a lot of people were trying to rationalize his behavior to say that it couldn't be his fault. I still don't understand his reasons for doing what he did, on what should've been such a terrific day. He seemed so cavalier with her safety that it just boggles the mind to think that he could do such a thing with someone he supposedly loved so much. I'm glad to have seen the video because it verifies that those initial reports were probably pretty accurate, and I can see why the PR authorities moved forward with charges. My sympathies still primarily lie with the family. The video proves his actions were not reasonably safe by any means, and personally, I'm glad we can put it to rest, as, really, a whole industry's reputation was at stake.

This. I totally agree. I found his story fishy from the very beginning. I've been on several cruises. Kids that age don't just fall out windows on cruise ships. Plus, the initial witness reports and subsequent police report that he was "playing" by dangling her out the window (there were a LOT of people right there and someone definitely saw something...my guess is the bartender, at the very least, must have seen everything). I don't understand why people are so quick to jump to the defense of people who cause terrible things to happen to kids. There seems to be this strange phenomenon that when bad things happen to kids, it's a tragedy and "no one's fault" but once those kids grow up, when something terrible happens to an adult, it's definitely someone's fault and that person must be punished. Why are adults in charge of children so often given a pass when their actions directly lead to the death or severe injury of a child?

I know of a family who lost 3 of their 4 children to an ATV accident. The kids were YOUNG (2, 4, and 6). They were at their grandparents home in Texas. Grandpa allowed the 3 young kids to ride the ATV driven by a 15 year old cousin. The ATV flipped, killing the 3 younger kids. To this day, the MOTHER calls it a "terrible tragedy that was no one's fault." Grandpa is her father. Somehow, no one blames him for allowing TODDLERS to ride an ATV on his property. Unbelievable. Now mom is advocating for ATV safety awareness. Too late, mom. Rational people know not to put 2 and 3 year olds on a 4 wheeler driven by an unlicensed teenager. Just because your father didn't recognize the danger in that doesn't mean it's an issue that needs awareness. People will rationalize anything if it absolves them of responsibility. It's always someone else's fault...

I'm glad the PR authorities went forward with pressing charges. This kind of thing cannot be allowed to be written off.

 

[JaxDad]

There used to be (might still be, haven't looked at it or for it in a while) a website that listed all the reportable incidents at sea on all cruise lines. It was pretty eye opening.

Found it:

http://www.cruisejunkie.com/events.html

Hmmm...I had not heard about that child molestation case on the DCL ship.

 

[mom2rtk]

There's no railing at the Grand Canyon. At least not at the North Rim. Just sayin'

Fair enough. But I'm talking about the areas that do have railing. On our first visit there was a child climbing on the railing and I had to just turn and walk away. I was fearful that any reaction or action from me would have ended with me being blamed if he fell. Really affected my enjoyment of the park that day.

 

[luvsJack]

This. I totally agree. I found his story fishy from the very beginning. I've been on several cruises. Kids that age don't just fall out windows on cruise ships. Plus, the initial witness reports and subsequent police report that he was "playing" by dangling her out the window (there were a LOT of people right there and someone definitely saw something...my guess is the bartender, at the very least, must have seen everything). I don't understand why people are so quick to jump to the defense of people who cause terrible things to happen to kids. There seems to be this strange phenomenon that when bad things happen to kids, it's a tragedy and "no one's fault" but once those kids grow up, when something terrible happens to an adult, it's definitely someone's fault and that person must be punished. Why are adults in charge of children so often given a pass when their actions directly lead to the death or severe injury of a child?

I know of a family who lost 3 of their 4 children to an ATV accident. The kids were YOUNG (2, 4, and 6). They were at their grandparents home in Texas. Grandpa allowed the 3 young kids to ride the ATV driven by a 15 year old cousin. The ATV flipped, killing the 3 younger kids. To this day, the MOTHER calls it a "terrible tragedy that was no one's fault." Grandpa is her father. Somehow, no one blames him for allowing TODDLERS to ride an ATV on his property. Unbelievable. Now mom is advocating for ATV safety awareness. Too late, mom. Rational people know not to put 2 and 3 year olds on a 4 wheeler driven by an unlicensed teenager. Just because your father didn't recognize the danger in that doesn't mean it's an issue that needs awareness. People will rationalize anything if it absolves them of responsibility. It's always someone else's fault...

I'm glad the PR authorities went forward with pressing charges. This kind of thing cannot be allowed to be written off.

OT, but: There shouldn’t have been 3 people of any age on the ATV with the driver. But, kids around here have ATVs long before they have a license and they have been riding since they were very young. Now, we have always given strict safety rules (one being only one person and the driver at a time and under a certain age have to ride in front of the driver) but I can see where the Mom doesn’t blame her Dad. They had probably ridden just like that many times.

My 6 year old dgd has a small one. And they have to ride alone on it. But she has been riding with her older, teen brother on his big one for awhile.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I remember once we were walking the dogs in the woods and friend's young son was on a small ATV (children's size) going at a slow speed right beside us. What could go wrong, right? All of a sudden we heard a problem - he had run into a nearly invisible wire going across an opening, right at his neck line. Had he been going faster we could've been dealing with a major neck laceration or worse. It is hard to predict all the things that can happen, but basic safety rules really do go a long way. "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!"

 

[mom to minnie&mickey]

Why are adults in charge of children so often given a pass when their actions directly lead to the death or severe injury of a child?

Growing up I went to school with a boy who was blind in one eye and also visually disfigured by it. We were also distant family friends. I remember the story was that his grandfather got mad one day at the grandkids making noise and to scare them he pulled out his belt. Problem is he held the belt by the leather and swung the buckle. It caught him in the eye tearing it in two. He was only 2 years old at the time.

 

[msjprincess]

Do you really think they contacted a lawyer? They were prey.

He's a cop and she's a former prosecutor. They're not naive prey.

 

[Dznypal]

interesting how from the beginning the parents wanted you to beieve this happened in a childrens play area

yet whats in the background on the video but a bar

 

[wgeo]

interesting how from the beginning the parents wanted you to beieve this happened in a childrens play area

yet whats in the background on the video but a bar

That was one of the first signals for me that their stories weren't quite accurate. There are so many readily available pictures/videos of that area of the cruise ships and no one would label it a kid's play area, yet they kept repeating that line.

 

[mjkacmom]

He's a cop and she's a former prosecutor. They're not naive prey.

I don’t care if they were the head of the FBI, losing a child in such a horrific manner, there is no way they were thinking straight the next day, probably still aren’t.

 

[fly girl]

I just watched the La Comay video. I can understand spanish as my family and DHs are Puerto Rican.

The commentary, essentially, is along the same lines as the prevailing thought here. In general, the hosts do not believe the story being given by the grandfather and the lawyer at ALL. They were quite scathing in their criticism towards the actions of the grandfather, saying it is very clear that he was OUT the window and that the child could not have possibly been in a position to fall outside the window if the grandpa had not purposely held her out of it. They also made some passing comments about how he "appears to be about 80, but is only 51, can you believe that?" They said that he had to feel the wind, hear the sounds and that there is no plausible way he didn't know the window was open. Essentially, they dump all over his claim by pointing out how far he is leaning out and that 18" would mean, at the angle he was leaning, his head would have smashed into the window, at the very least.

Later, they comment that he does BOTH things: perches her on the railing AND holds he out the actual window (he does this first, then brings her back in, sits her on the railing, adjusts his hold on her, then picks her up again to place her forward over the windowsill where it is clear (by her hand gripping the window frame) that her upper body is OUT the window, leaning forward. They also comment how there is a lapse in the time between the child disappearing from view and him collapsing. They wonder whether he just "couldn't believe what he was seeing" as an explanation for the delay, and say that they can't imagine he purposely watched her fall all the way to the ground before reacting, but that it was a bit of an odd reaction.

Finally the puppet guy makes some statements that this was not a blood relative, he was a step grandpa. He says it seems that the "pain" being experienced by the family does not seem to jive with their behavior in the immediate PR and lawsuits filed, and their insistence that the grandpa is innocent EVEN THOUGH no one in the family has seen the video. He says that they don't want to watch the video because, deep down, they know it will show them the truth, that the grandpa was negligent with the child and they don't want to face the truth. Both the puppet guy and the host seem quite angry at the whole situation and the fact that the family refuses to admit responsibility.

Just as a commentary of my own, these news shows in PR tend to be very dramatic and over the top (it's kinda par for the course for the culture, to be honest). HOWEVER, when watching this, I was struck by the very obvious tone of both hosts of what a shame and tragedy this entire ordeal is. They seem very genuine in their disbelief of the story being told and seem to have a huge amount of sadness for the poor child. They seem quite bitter towards the grandfather and seem to have absolutely NO sympathy for him, and they approach the opinion that this man knew exactly what he was doing when he was doing it and is now playing the victim card, which they don't take kindly to.

Thank you for translating. And WOW, they are saying a lot of the stuff we said here too.

I know some on here have no sympathy for the GF like the show, and they have every right to feel that way. Personally, I do. Knowing what you did and living with it for the rest of your life will be torture. Especially when (I think it will eventually happen) the family realizes it was his fault. They are not ready yet to face the reality of the situation. So much easier to place blame on the cruise line. Since I have (nor do I ever want) to know what they are going through, I give them leeway on that. Same with the lawsuit, but I really hope they drop it soon. I think they have to wait to see what GF is going to do.

 

[mummabear]

CBS News was able to watch the video and described what they saw in a newscast. Listen to what they had to say above.

It is ridiculous how they describe the video. He stood at the window for a second....

 

[kaytieeldr]

That lawyer sounds like a donkey in that interview.

 

[mousefan73]

Growing up I went to school with a boy who was blind in one eye and also visually disfigured by it. We were also distant family friends. I remember the story was that his grandfather got mad one day at the grandkids making noise and to scare them he pulled out his belt. Problem is he held the belt by the leather and swung the buckle. It caught him in the eye tearing it in two. He was only 2 years old at the time.

Wish I could unread this

 

[sam_gordon]

CBS News was able to watch the video and described what they saw in a newscast. Listen to what they had to say above.

It is ridiculous how they describe the video. He stood at the window for a second....

Keep in mind CBS got the video from the lawyer. Anyone willing to bet that he edited the video before letting them see it? It seemed pretty plain to me that he didn't "stand a window for a second", but LEANED OUT the window before picking up Chloe. If he didn't edit it and that was still in the video, that CBS reporter needs to go back to Journalism 101.

 

[QueenIsabella]

Keep in mind CBS got the video from the lawyer. Anyone willing to bet that he edited the video before letting them see it? It seemed pretty plain to me that he didn't "stand a window for a second", but LEANED OUT the window before picking up Chloe. If he didn't edit it and that was still in the video, that CBS reporter needs to go back to Journalism 101.

I think that's what bothered me most about that article/piece/whatever you call it--that the journalist clearly seemed to be buying what the lawyer was selling, without questioning it. Isn't it a journalist's job to get to the truth, no matter what? To dig in and question and consider different angles and whether people are pushing an agenda? Would a journalist be that trusting with, say, a politician or a company accused of polluting? I would hope not.

 

[Kogo Shuko]

Do you really think they contacted a lawyer? They were prey.

He's a cop and she's a former prosecutor. They're not naive prey.

I don’t care if they were the head of the FBI, losing a child in such a horrific manner, there is no way they were thinking straight the next day, probably still aren’t.

mjsprincess is not talking about whether they were thinking straight.

They have a perfect point: They were not prey.

You specifically asked "Do you really think they contacted a lawyer?" and the answer is, as a cop and former lawyer they undoubtedly have friends who are lawyers, and when being contacted by lawyers that prey on people would be smart enough to instead turn to someone they know they can rely on. Why pick a seedy lawyer when you have access to some of the best prosecuting lawyers out there, simply by having been one yourself? It makes absolutely no sense to choose a stranger, not even when you're grieving. If anything, if I were grieving, I'd probably rather have someone I know helping me.