Autism lawsuits to continue on appeal

[coastermom]

I thought you have to buy The FLASH Pass? Is it free to everyone?

If you have a doctors note and apply for the new disability card that Six Flags is asking for people to get you can get a disability pass like a DAS. This is NOT A FLASH PASS it’s for Disability issues !!

 

[lanejudy]

If you have a doctors note and apply for the new disability card that Six Flags is asking for people to get you can get a disability pass like a DAS. This is NOT A FLASH PASS it’s for Disability issues !!

I understand that. But the person I quoted claims the Six Flags disability pass is not enhanced access because the disability pass allows them to enter through The FLASH Pass entrance. If use of that entrance without a disability requires an extra paid-upgrade, then the disability pass is providing an enhanced access. Thus requiring documentation of the disability. "Enhanced" does not have to mean front-of-the-line, it simply means something of value.

 

[Evita_W]

I understand that. But the person I quoted claims the Six Flags disability pass is not enhanced access because the disability pass allows them to enter through The FLASH Pass entrance. If use of that entrance without a disability requires an extra paid-upgrade, then the disability pass is providing an enhanced access. Thus requiring documentation of the disability. "Enhanced" does not have to mean front-of-the-line, it simply means something of value.

The problem is that they can't provide equal access without the enhanced access. They can only require a doctor's note if the enhanced access goes above is something offered above what provides equal access.

So in Six Flags case, they could provide:

• An option that provides a return time that you come back with little to no wait time. Since this mimics the standby queue and there is nothing less than this that would provide equal access to these guests with disabilities, no doctors note can be required, even though it is the equivalent of their FlashPass service that might cost other guests money.
• An option that mimics say a front of the line or equivalent pass, this would be something above and beyond what is offered to provide equal access and a doctor's note can be required.

That being said, any system that requires a doctor's note always gets massive abuse, there are litterally people on the street corners around the parks that try to require doctors notes selling fake doctors notes for a little bit of nothing. It happened when Disney tried it way back when, by the way back at that time Disney tried the argument that they could require a doctor's note because their system offered enhanced access and then the inevitable happened and a disabled person got hurt in the Indiana Jones queue at Disneyland because they were forced into using the standby queue rather than given a special assistance card as they were called at the time because she didn't have a doctor's note. They sued Disney, who as I said argued they could because it was enhanced access and the courts ordered that since there was no other option at that time that provided equal access they couldn't require a doctor's note.

Think of going on a bus as another example, in most cities, if you are disabled you can apply for reduced fare and/or get dial a ride service, but they require proof of disability in order to get it. But you can still ride the bus at full fare, even if you have a mobility device. But if say the regular buses were unable to handle mobility devices, then the dial a ride that can handle them would not be able to require a doctor's note for their use, as that is what would be considered equal access.

So technically Six Flags is in violation of ADA by requiring a doctor's note for return times and there is even legal proceedings that set a precedent for this.

 

[jcb]

It happened when Disney tried it way back when, by the way back at that time Disney tried the argument that they could require a doctor's note because their system offered enhanced access and then the inevitable happened and a disabled person got hurt in the Indiana Jones queue at Disneyland because they were forced into using the standby queue rather than given a special assistance card as they were called at the time because she didn't have a doctor's note. They sued Disney, who as I said argued they could because it was enhanced access and the courts ordered that since there was no other option at that time that provided equal access they couldn't require a doctor's note.

I'm not familiar with this ruling. ADA Title III does not include a medical inquiry prohibition similar to the one applicable to employers. There are very few court decisions on this. DOJ seems to assume there is such a prohibition but its reasoning is so thin, it is doubtful a court would defer to it. So, do you have a citation or case name for the decision?

 

[Evita_W]

I'm not familiar with this ruling. ADA Title III does not include a medical inquiry prohibition similar to the one applicable to employers. There are very few court decisions on this. DOJ seems to assume there is such a prohibition but its reasoning is so thin, it is doubtful a court would defer to it. So, do you have a citation or case name for the decision?

It is a long story and I don't remember the case number or name, this was back in the mid 90's, I only know what it was, because I saw the aftermath, as I was in the park and had gone on Indiana Jones just before this happened and was on my way out when they shut the queue down. I obviously didn't do a good enough job explaining this.

The person in question had a disability that could cause them to fall down at any point and as a result, and it is my understanding that even if they had a wheelchair they had panic attacks in crowded queues due to some other issues (it was more complicated than that, but I do need to simplify this a little bit and I don't even know all of their issues, just what was public at the time), as a result they requested a disability access pass as they were called then to minimize the amount of time in in the queue. They did not have a doctors note stating all of this, so Disney denied them when they requested such a pass. So, they tried to do what they could and the issue ended up coming up while they were in the Indiana Jones queue and they ended up on the floor. Now that doesn't sound too bad, but guests literally walked over and even stepped on the person to get on the ride. Obviously that is an issue of very rude guests, but none the less, it is what happened and this is what caused her injuries. Literally had I got in line about 10 minutes later, I could very well have stood there behind her and blocked the path until assistance came, so again, I was there and witnessed the aftermath, so I watched the story closely. But if I had been there and stopped it, who knows what would have happened with the access system?

As a result they were able to demonstrate that they were unable to access the attraction and definitely not safely without some accommodations. They rightfully pointed out that this incident would not have happened had Disney not required a doctors note for access. Disney did point out that had the guests not behaved so poorly that this incident would also not have happened and the courts rules that while that was true, they could eliminate the potential for anything like it to reoccur simply by eliminating the need for a doctor's note and ordered Disney to do so or to come up with another way to provide equal access without a doctor's note, as a person with certain disabilities would be unable to access attractions without such a pass and thus a doctors note cannot be required.

And I do recall that Disney tried very hard to settle out of court, but the people involved had money and they really weren't interested in that, they wanted to make things better for those with disabilities.

 

[jcb]

T

It is a long story and I don't remember the case number or name, this was back in the mid 90's, I only know what it was, because I saw the aftermath, as I was in the park and had gone on Indiana Jones just before this happened and was on my way out when they shut the queue down. I obviously didn't do a good enough job explaining this.

The person in question had a disability that could cause them to fall down at any point and as a result, and it is my understanding that even if they had a wheelchair they had panic attacks in crowded queues due to some other issues (it was more complicated than that, but I do need to simplify this a little bit and I don't even know all of their issues, just what was public at the time), as a result they requested a disability access pass as they were called then to minimize the amount of time in in the queue. They did not have a doctors note stating all of this, so Disney denied them when they requested such a pass. So, they tried to do what they could and the issue ended up coming up while they were in the Indiana Jones queue and they ended up on the floor. Now that doesn't sound too bad, but guests literally walked over and even stepped on the person to get on the ride. Obviously that is an issue of very rude guests, but none the less, it is what happened and this is what caused her injuries. Literally had I got in line about 10 minutes later, I could very well have stood there behind her and blocked the path until assistance came, so again, I was there and witnessed the aftermath, so I watched the story closely. But if I had been there and stopped it, who knows what would have happened with the access system?

As a result they were able to demonstrate that they were unable to access the attraction and definitely not safely without some accommodations. They rightfully pointed out that this incident would not have happened had Disney not required a doctors note for access. Disney did point out that had the guests not behaved so poorly that this incident would also not have happened and the courts rules that while that was true, they could eliminate the potential for anything like it to reoccur simply by eliminating the need for a doctor's note and ordered Disney to do so or to come up with another way to provide equal access without a doctor's note, as a person with certain disabilities would be unable to access attractions without such a pass and thus a doctors note cannot be required.

And I do recall that Disney tried very hard to settle out of court, but the people involved had money and they really weren't interested in that, they wanted to make things better for those with disabilities.

Thank you. Lots of folks have claimed IJ caused them injuries. It's what led to the common carrier ruling. I've not been able to find any ruling along the lines that you describe and it isn't mentioned in People v. Disneyland. I am not doubting you. From the description, it might not have been an ADA claim - that was still new in the mid-1990's - but a California law tort claim. Perhaps later I'll be able to search newspapers for articles on the subject. I've just found news media does a very poor job of accurately reporting litigation.

 

[SueM in MN]

My daughter can be lifted out of her wheelchair (so a not easy transfer), but stays in her chair for any attractions that have a wheelchair accessible vehicle.
We’ve been coming to WDW for many years and used DAS (and the Guest Assistance Card it replaced) because of her other needs.

The issue with the waiting area itself being crowded or small is more of an issue with some of the older attractions. Newer attractions and many of the older ones that could be updated have the handicapped boarding area moved closer to the ‘regular’ boarding area and have a pull off point separated by ropes for guests with special needs to wait.
We’ve found our waits in the dedicated boarding area or line for most attractions has actually decreased a lot since DAS started.
Before DAS, we usually waited for an extra 15-45 minutes in the wheelchair accessible boarding area for Toy Story Midway Mania. Why? Because people with Guest Assistance Cards with a stamp to “use alternate entrance” were also using that area. At times, there were only 2 groups out of maybe 8 with mobility devices and the line waiting there extended all the way to the end of the ramped entrance to the area. Now, we are sometimes the only guests waiting and get on as quickly as the wheelchair accessible vehicle (WAV) arrives. For that particular attraction, the extra track without stairs made some difference, but the biggest change was limiting that access area to people who actually need the WAV.

We‘ve seen the same thing on Small World. Before the change, the wait usually went up the ramp all the way to the exit, with the majority not using a mobility device. More recently, we’ve had at the most 2 groups in front of us.

Jungle Cruise made a change in the past year - the waiting for guests with mobility devices has 2 areas, with a rope between them. One is for those who can transfer and the other is for those waiting for the WAV. They may not always have the separation, but in out trips in the past year, they hs d.
The one that still has a long wait is the Safari. It’s really variable though - we’ve been in line with several guests using wheelchairs ahead of us and thought they either would all transfer and they didn’t or thought none would transfer and they all did.

 

[rigs32]

Does the mom who testified have a plan for her child after she passes?

 

[Evita_W]

My daughter can be lifted out of her wheelchair (so a not easy transfer), but stays in her chair for any attractions that have a wheelchair accessible vehicle.
We’ve been coming to WDW for many years and used DAS (and the Guest Assistance Card it replaced) because of her other needs.

The issue with the waiting area itself being crowded or small is more of an issue with some of the older attractions. Newer attractions and many of the older ones that could be updated have the handicapped boarding area moved closer to the ‘regular’ boarding area and have a pull off point separated by ropes for guests with special needs to wait.
We’ve found our waits in the dedicated boarding area or line for most attractions has actually decreased a lot since DAS started.
Before DAS, we usually waited for an extra 15-45 minutes in the wheelchair accessible boarding area for Toy Story Midway Mania. Why? Because people with Guest Assistance Cards with a stamp to “use alternate entrance” were also using that area. At times, there were only 2 groups out of maybe 8 with mobility devices and the line waiting there extended all the way to the end of the ramped entrance to the area. Now, we are sometimes the only guests waiting and get on as quickly as the wheelchair accessible vehicle (WAV) arrives. For that particular attraction, the extra track without stairs made some difference, but the biggest change was limiting that access area to people who actually need the WAV.

We‘ve seen the same thing on Small World. Before the change, the wait usually went up the ramp all the way to the exit, with the majority not using a mobility device. More recently, we’ve had at the most 2 groups in front of us.

Jungle Cruise made a change in the past year - the waiting for guests with mobility devices has 2 areas, with a rope between them. One is for those who can transfer and the other is for those waiting for the WAV. They may not always have the separation, but in out trips in the past year, they hs d.
The one that still has a long wait is the Safari. It’s really variable though - we’ve been in line with several guests using wheelchairs ahead of us and thought they either would all transfer and they didn’t or thought none would transfer and they all did.

What I am describing predated the GAC and yes, eliminating the requirement for doctors notes did have some issues, but for quite some time the abuse decreased dramatically after that. Remember, the internet was still in its infancy, so it took time for everyone to learn the tricks and even then not everyone did. Then it got to the point that the queue were getting way too long for those with DAP (acronym at the time), the biggest problem had become people handing their passes to other people if they didn't want to ride a particular attraction. They eventually required ID when using the DAP for a short amount of time, but the enforcement was inconsistent and caused issues with kids that needed the passes.

So they revamped the system to the GAC and caused a mess of issues that eventually got sorted and it worked fairly well for quite some time, then people were selling their services as a "tour guide without the waits" (something that didn't really happen with the DAP, but again, I think that is more due to it being the early days of the internet than anything else) and as you note the queue were getting quite long again, sometimes substantially longer than the standby queues and unfortunately there were times where depending on your needs you may have to use the alternate entrance, such as at small world in Disneyland if you couldn't do stairs, although that policy changed from time to time at that attraction. So they had to do something to curtail the issues and they once again revamped the system to the DAS, which has reduced abuse dramatically and of course there have been tweaks since then, but overall the system works, albeit not perfectly. There are still additional waits when you return, but Disney has indeed been making tweaks to minimize this wherever possible.

You have posted some examples, we never have had to wait for the Safari other than to get through the FP queue though, there has always been a vehicle waiting when we got to the front, but we were transferring, that being said there was no one that didn't transfer when we have gone. When we went with our friend that has a service dog, we did have to wait for them to get the proper harness thing, but that's a different story.

Another place they have made a major improvement is Peter Pan at Disneyland, If you can handle about 2 minutes of the end of the regular queue, they send you that way, so that those who need the exit can use it without such a long wait.

Also, small world at DL has been modified with a mainstreamed queue, which naturally spaces out those with disabilities instead of an insanely long queue for wheelchairs, you either use the standby or FP queue as applicable.

 

[Evita_W]

T

Thank you. Lots of folks have claimed IJ caused them injuries. It's what led to the common carrier ruling. I've not been able to find any ruling along the lines that you describe and it isn't mentioned in People v. Disneyland. I am not doubting you. From the description, it might not have been an ADA claim - that was still new in the mid-1990's - but a California law tort claim. Perhaps later I'll be able to search newspapers for articles on the subject. I've just found news media does a very poor job of accurately reporting litigation.

Yeah, it was one I was only able to follow at the time because of having been there and I don't know what grounds they were using, I was only ever able to find out the result and was able to confirm it with guest relations at the time, as the effect was immediate and I was one of the ones that it improved things for, so I ended up benefiting greatly from this very sad event that should have been avoidable in the first place.

 

[OurBigTrip]

So they revamped the system to the GAC and caused a mess of issues that eventually got sorted and it worked fairly well for quite some time, then people were selling their services as a "tour guide without the waits" (something that didn't really happen with the DAP, but again, I think that is more due to it being the early days of the internet than anything else) and as you note the queue were getting quite long again, sometimes substantially longer than the standby queues

It wasn’t just abuse by the non-disabled that necessitated ending the GAC, it was overuse by the disabled. The alternate entrance stamp became the norm rather than the exception, and people abused it by riding the same rides repeatedly with little to no wait and allowing others in their party to use it even if the disabled guest wasn’t riding.

 

[Evita_W]

It wasn’t just abuse by the non-disabled that necessitated ending the GAC, it was overuse by the disabled. The alternate entrance stamp became the norm rather than the exception, and people abused it by riding the same rides repeatedly with little to no wait and allowing others in their party to use it even if the disabled guest wasn’t riding.

While there was some of the repeated rides, that was the minority. But the allowing others to use it was a big problem that drove me nuts, so I am glad they do pictures now. Overall, from what I saw in visiting the parks (DLR) at least once a week at the time, the abuse was about 80% from the selling services (usually done by people who are disabled) and from the no disabled community and 20% the repeated rides, which yes I witnessed as well and yes, I reported clear abuses when I saw them. But technically at the time repeated ride wasn't considered abuse as it was within the rules, although not the spirit of the system, so nothing was ever done about those who did that.

 

[OurBigTrip]

Insisting on an alternate entrance stamp when it wasn’t really needed is also abuse.

 

[Evita_W]

Insisting on an alternate entrance stamp when it wasn’t really needed is also abuse.

Yes, but not as many people did that as you might think, aside from those that I mentioned that were selling their services and yes, that was abuse and I think Disney should have revoked their annual passes and fired the CMs (which there were quite a few) that did this, but that is just me.

 

[lanejudy]

I believe the use/abuse issues with GAC varied to extent between WDW and DLR. The "tour guide" issue was much bigger at DLR than WDW. WDW had a bigger problem with use/overuse/too many who didn't truly need the alternate entrance stamp. Combined the various issues were creating operational challenges at both parks, resulting in the program change.

 

[Lilsia]

I believe the use/abuse issues with GAC varied to extent between WDW and DLR. The "tour guide" issue was much bigger at DLR than WDW. WDW had a bigger problem with use/overuse/too many who didn't truly need the alternate entrance stamp. Combined the various issues were creating operational challenges at both parks, resulting in the program change.

Another issue, at WDW at least, was that before they made the queues wheelchair/ECV friendly, families would rent a wheelchair to get to the FOTL. We saw that many times with family members taking turns who would sit in the chair. I am glad that they fixed that because that is a special kind of horrible person that does that. I still will hear in passing, people in ECVs arguing with cast members about skipping the line like they used to.

 

[HarleenQ]

It wasn’t just abuse by the non-disabled that necessitated ending the GAC, it was overuse by the disabled. The alternate entrance stamp became the norm rather than the exception, and people abused it by riding the same rides repeatedly with little to no wait and allowing others in their party to use it even if the disabled guest wasn’t riding.

For sure. I remember an article that came out when Cars Land in DLR opened saying the number of GAC users was an astronomical number.

While there was some of the repeated rides, that was the minority. But the allowing others to use it was a big problem that drove me nuts, so I am glad they do pictures now. Overall, from what I saw in visiting the parks (DLR) at least once a week at the time, the abuse was about 80% from the selling services (usually done by people who are disabled) and from the no disabled community and 20% the repeated rides, which yes I witnessed as well and yes, I reported clear abuses when I saw them. But technically at the time repeated ride wasn't considered abuse as it was within the rules, although not the spirit of the system, so nothing was ever done about those who did that.

I don't think anyone can know that without Disney's numbers. I really can't imagine paying attention to other guests enough to come up with any kind of theory like this.

 

[Evita_W]

Another issue, at WDW at least, was that before they made the queues wheelchair/ECV friendly, families would rent a wheelchair to get to the FOTL. We saw that many times with family members taking turns who would sit in the chair. I am glad that they fixed that because that is a special kind of horrible person that does that. I still will hear in passing, people in ECVs arguing with cast members about skipping the line like they used to.

Plus, in all honesty, some queues are really part of the attraction and the fact they had to skip them actually meant they were missing out on some things. Even FP queues, which those with a DAS return to now have that problem to a certain extent, but then it is equal to others who have FPs that anyone can get, unlike before where you completely skipped a lot of it.

 

[Evita_W]

For sure. I remember an article that came out when Cars Land in DLR opened saying the number of GAC users was an astronomical number.



I don't think anyone can know that without Disney's numbers. I really can't imagine paying attention to other guests enough to come up with any kind of theory like this.

When you are stuck waiting, you tend to pay closer attention.

 

[HarleenQ]

When you are stuck waiting, you tend to pay closer attention.

Sure, but it's still entirely anecdotal.