Avengers attractions planned?

[fannatic]

I don't know, I would accept a lot of money from someone I hate - money talks.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

You're missing "Could entice more families to make the trip in the first place". Not just increase LOS, but increase total volume. Disney looks to be starting, possibly, further resort construction and expansion (the other half of Pop Century, now the Art of Animation , further DVC offerings, etc). If that continues, they're going to want to fill that inventory. One way to do that would be to find a way to get more people to come visit...AS WELL AS lengthen trips.

I can tell you from personal experience/ knowledge...that disney's goal is not trying to convince "on the fence" first timers to come.

That was the way in the 70's, 80's, and early 90's...but that is not the case anymore. It really comes down to this: those that have the money have already gone - many will continue to repeat...those that have not probably don't have the means and lack any chance to gain the means.

That is just an economic and recreational reality...and it gets the same phenomena that is either weeped upon or greeted with eye rolls: the middle class has been destroyed. already in the US...heading that way in europe and beyond.
just the way it is.

That and its easy to travel to florida and has been for 2 decades (though when i look at flight prices each day it becomes a little harder - ouch, baby). that is the reality...i remember when i was a kid it was such a production and so exotic when you or one of your friends got to go...if you went every 5 years you were an experience pro
but hell...no longer...
not only do i move freely back and forth down there - but most of the people i'm even slightly acquainted that go at all do too....2,3,4+ times a year.

the haves go...the have nots don't and aren't getting the raises to make it a possibility.
we all should know this by now.

the "first timers"that they concentrate on now more than anything? are those new families who's parents and grandparents have been DVC owners for years. Disney wants them to...so i guess that sorta counts...but they are the softest of sells.

Debatable. Not the effect portion, but the causal. I wouldn't say they hit the wall (meaning there is no further opportunity). I'd say they created a half day park with limited appeal. Part of that was design issue (the park never did have a well defined identity...or, rather, not one that stuck with the average WDW visitor), part of it was an economic one (the park hasn't ever really been "finished", because, much like with Pop, Disney dialed back the expansion plans in the wake of 9/11...and then kept them dialed back during the recession) and part of it was a leadership problem (the suits at WDW seemed to lack vision, in general).

disney's economic problems were not 9/11 created. AK was in decline each of its first three years in operation...the fallout from the tech crash didn't really hit until late 2000 and beyond...and that caused a significant dip. Same with the Millennium Celebration...huge high followed by low occupancy in early 2001.

The 9/11 stuff made it worse...but they were in the gutter six months before (that was seen with my own eyes, fingers, and network passwords).

So POP was derailed possibly because of 9/11...but AK was ground to a halt because there was no sense by management that more construction would lead to more attendance and revenue...and that could be either complete miss on the park or saturation. I can tell you that saturation was attributed as the culprit mores than anything.

i'm not sure of that. Right now, a significant portion of Universal's guests do NOT stay on site. And those parks seem to be doing just fine.

If you can entice those guests to ignore USF/IOA, and spend another day or two on Disney property.....you're accomplished your goal.

While 7 to 10 days seems to be the max wiggle room....there's some room there for Disney to get more guests to spend more time in their domain.

And, again, even if you're right...you're now left trying to get NEW travelers, or lure back existing ones on a more consistent basis, in order to continue to grow your business.

The problem there is that you are assuming that there are significant gains to be made by tapping into the "universal only" or "sea world only" travelers...

The problem there is that demographic doesn't exactly exist. the two largest typed of travelers to orlando are "do every things" - which are the occasional visitors who are not the highest priority for disney. The do everything...including a majority of their days at WDW
the other primary type is the "disney only" crowd. and that is their target: DVC and junkies (or better yet...both) Those that generate "guaranteed revenue".
the bounce back offers you see every time you go into a room. WDW is not saturating rural markets with ads all over the country searching for newbies...they are trying to lock in those that come fairly willingly into repeat patterns.
That is "guaranteed revenue" and they value those dollars as being worth more than the occasional traveler.
And they should...its been cultivated for 30 years and they've learned that they are right in their valuations.

And at least as far as americans go...if you bet that the average out of town vacation will rise from a 7 day average to a 10 you will get cleaned out by the house on that bet. As disney well knows. nobody that tracks travel is predicting that...i read everything i can get my beady eyes on and i have NEVER seen that prediction made. not once.

has been and is being canniblized by Universal. Again, I don't think snatching Marvel away from them is the answer..but I'm not willing to concede there ISN'T an answer out there. I think there is. And it isn't the Fantasyland expansion, either. Nor is it waiting out the novelty of WWOHP. Whether Disney will find the answer (or even look for it) is the question.

you're right about that too...
but universal is still not stealing much from WDW. those that go now - by and large - were going to go to both places anyway. before or after harry potter.

islands of adventure has increased a bump in the last two years...but this is after a prolonged period of turmoil and attendance lags at UOR and probably the second worst economy in american history (and don't think those woods have been cleared yet, sunny jim)

and as others point out: harry potter has been new and big....now it's OVAH...and the real truth shall set us free.

but what i originally meant is that since disney is tracking average stays to the 5-7/8 range (which it does) as the average length of stay...guests are predicted to "cannibalize" their disney time moving forward...
and that is something that wasn't really the case until AK. they grew form average 2-3 stays in the MK era up till the 7 mark around the opening of AK...and since it has not moved.

if they build new lands...or new parks....people now are observed just swapping the "new" in for the old.
And those recently released numbers show where and how. EPCOT is stagnating attendance wise...so when they get a gradual bump on fantasyland over the next two years...look for the numbers for EPCOT to fall and probably AK as well....or hold flat which is a loss in their eyes as well. AK was projected at a 15 million annual park - i kid not - that was put down on paper. you wonder why they treat it like the ugly little brother?...wonder no longer.
which means that the money invested is not providing return.

so if they were to "finish animal kingdom" or studios...or even build a new gate...what will happen is there will be a slight overall increase....but the majority of travel patterns will just eliminate some of the other disney offerings as a trade off for what's new.

and that means if they shave time in the merchandise friendly and high earning parks...mk, epcot, and especially downtown...for new attractions at another location...red alert.

disney is excellent in tracking spending patterns/ market trends/ and interpreting all that guest feedback they get.

That is what the numbers are telling them...that investment does not guarantee increased revenue.

deal breaker.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I don't know, I would accept a lot of money from someone I hate - money talks.

the problem with your statement...is that disney and comcast/universal don't hate each other the slightest bit.

they are mutually parasitic: the better one does...the more the other feasts.

so why mess with anything? the answer is there is no reason or justification to do so.

let me make this statement once again: disney in no way wants to marginalize or eliminate its orlando park competitors....not one bit.

if universal where to die...mickey mouse would be the inconsolable one crying hysterically in the front row of the funeral.

and if you need a hit home type example: try to think of someone you know personally that has flown to orlando and JUST gone to either Universal's parks or Sea World?

you probably won't...and your just like everybody else in that regard.

 

[pilferk]

I just cut this part out since this is pretty much what has to happen before anything happens.

You say they get back control, well yes if US owned all the rights to the Marvel characters that would be one thing but Disney already has say 95% of the total control to the characters. They only don't have control of certain characters in amusement parks east of the Mississippi which they would have to pay a ton of money to gain just that little bit of extra control.

Yup....thats pretty much my point.

It would be way too expensive given what Disney would get back.

Still, that control isn't nothing.

Under c. above you say sell the rights to some one else for more money. What amusement park east of the Mississippi could "outbid" US, Six Flags, Cedar Fair, my home park Kennywood?

Who knows. But I would have been remiss had I not mentioned the option.

 

[fannatic]

I was referring to the Lord of the Rings heirs about taking money. As for Disney and Universal, I know Disney has a good deal now, but I'm not so sure it's so good for Universal. I'm not trying to knock Universal, I think they're great, but the way they seem to be holding on to Marvel seems a bit desperate. I mean I know that Disney gets properties from other studios, but the majority of Islands of Adventure is licensed. You would think that they wouldn't like having to pay Disney and have them look over their books. I could understand when Marvel was the top draw of the park, but now they're basically turning both parks into Harry Potter world. That's where their increase in attendance has come from.

 

[pilferk]

I can tell you from personal experience/ knowledge...that disney's goal is not trying to convince "on the fence" first timers to come.

Lets stick with theory and publicly available data. Because, not to question your experience but...anyone can come here and say they are/were anything. Too many folks have claimed to be "insiders", and then proven not to be for "experience" to be pertinent in any discussion here.

I know some folks will chime in and vouch for you...but put simply: It's not ever really going to be enough for me.

Also, if you read back what I wrote...you'll notice I'm not talking about first timers coming to WDW. I'm talking about luring back families who's kids feel like they've "outgrown" WDW. Those families who used to come every year, but now are not. While not strictly "new customers", they're former customers who are no longer consuming the product.

Disney has, in their corporate speak, been clear they're targeting those folks.

disney's economic problems were not 9/11 created. AK was in decline each of its first three years in operation...the fallout from the tech crash didn't really hit until late 2000 and beyond...and that caused a significant dip. Same with the Millennium Celebration...huge high followed by low occupancy in early 2001.

Again, I offer the decline was due to the novelty wearing off and an incomplete park. The park's lack of "completeness" first stemmed from Disney overestimating the draw of what they had (something common in their vision during that time frame...witness DCA), and then (when the problem became apparent) from a lack of fiscal means to develop it. I agree: 9/11 wasn't the entire reason...but it certainly perpetuated the problem. As has the recession.

And, further to the point, WDW's OVERALL volume dropped after 9/11, as the tourist trade took a gigantic hit. It rebounded some, but then scaled back as the recession began in earnest. So their pool of guests (both "Disney junkies" and "samplers") wasn't as large, either.

The 9/11 stuff made it worse...but they were in the gutter six months before (that was seen with my own eyes, fingers, and network passwords).

Again, lets stick with theory....unless you care to share the info you saw in it's original form.

So POP was derailed possibly because of 9/11...but AK was ground to a halt because there was no sense by management that more construction would lead to more attendance and revenue...and that could be either complete miss on the park or saturation. I can tell you that saturation was attributed as the culprit mores than anything.

Because their numbers were already down (post 9/11)....and they suspected they could not lure anyone with further expansion given the reasons those numbers were down (after 9/11 and then as the recession took hold) because there were factors involved they could not control...but that looks to have been true for MOST of their parks in Florida, and not just AK. They did what smart business does: They battened down the hatches and waited out the "storm(s)". We're seeing SOME of that reverse, now....and I think their reasoning is pretty obvious: They think expansion and refreshing will drive business.

And while saturation MAY have been thought to be the culprit (I have no way to know that), I'd be more interested in seeing current guest survey results and what they say about AK. I've heard enough public grousing, in the park, on the boards, and amongst my peer group that I strongly suspect it's not the case, now. I suspect people just don't "get" AK...or, rather ,they don't want it, in it's current incarnation. Not everyone....but a good enough sized population to be noteable.

The problem there is that you are assuming that there are significant gains to be made by tapping into the "universal only" or "sea world only" travelers...

No, quite the opposite. I suspect there are no "Universal Only" or "sea world only" guests. I (as you go on to say) would guess there's no such thing. At least not in large enough part to matter. What I'm suggesting is there is a way to convince those "sampling" to spend more time on your property, rather than at the competitors (or back in the hotel room). AK (and, to some extent, DHS) are really 1/2 day parks. They clear out between 1 and 3 PM (DHS has the lure of Fantasmic...but I"m not convinced that KEEPS people in the park...it just brings them back), from anecdotal observations.

If you can make those parks "whole day" parks, or convince those "sampling" to skip USF or SeaWorld for AK...you've brought in more people. There's ways to do that. Again, we're far afield from Avengers discussion (since Marvel isn't the answer, likely)...but the question is: Does Disney want to do it. USF/IOA/Seaworld all have some commonalities that disney could (if you'll excuse the pun) "ape" to make AK more appealing to the demos USF/IOA/Seaworld do a better job of catering to than MK/Epcot do. The question is: Does Disney want to do it. From what we've seen...the answer seems to be no. Either the losses aren't fiscally compelling enough to offset development costs, or the "cost" to get those guest to come back is too high.

the other primary type is the "disney only" crowd. and that is their target: DVC and junkies (or better yet...both) Those that generate "guaranteed revenue".

Agree. Which is why I can see clear a possibility that Disney might try to "rehook" former junkies with new offerings that, quite frankly, have an appeal to certain demos that Disney hasn't been great at catering to (pre-teen and teen boys).

To be clear, these are two different threads of the same thought process.

1) You bring families BACK, who were customers but aren't any longer.

2) You keep current customers on resort property, giving them compelling reasons NOT to sample Universal, Seaworld, Bush Gardens, etc.

They're not mutually exclusive...but there is some overlap.

And at least as far as americans go...if you bet that the average out of town vacation will rise from a 7 day average to a 10 you will get cleaned out by the house on that bet. As disney well knows. nobody that tracks travel is predicting that...i read everything i can get my beady eyes on and i have NEVER seen that prediction made. not once.

I was throwing out a range, since the studies I've seen all indicate the average trip to Orlando is "7 to 10 days". It very well might skew more toward the 7. Still...if you're figuring in DHS and AK as 2 of those days, you've got the chance to extend the stays in the park and increase spending per guest. If you're figuring AK gets skipped (I think we can agree it's the most likely park to be bypassed), you have a chance to keep those folks on property and spending, rather than then heading off to Seaworld or down to Tampa for the day.

you're right about that too...
but universal is still not stealing much from WDW. those that go now - by and large - were going to go to both places anyway. before or after harry potter.

I don't know if that's true. My wife and I went to IOA back in 2000. We had not returned til last year (2011). We'll be going back in 2012. That's a night on their property and a day in their parks that, previously, had been spent on Disney property. Anecdotally, that's what I hear, too, on these boards and in discussing vacations with other parents in our area. Maybe it is...but I've seen enough compelling anecdotal evidence to make me think otherwise. Prior to WWOHP....most people I talked to went to Disney and, pretty much, stuck to the WDW parks. Some, with older kids, might have ventured off property here and there...but that was the exception, not the rule. Now....it seems like more families are making an IOA "stop" at SOME point during their trip.

Given IOA's attendance bump (after being pretty stagnant) and NOT seeing a commesurate bump in WDW park volume...those visitors are coming from somewhere. They're not "IOA only" visitors, you'd think. So either existing visitors are extending their stay...or they're choosing IOA over one of the disney parks.

Now, the argument I've seen is that it's WWOHP's novelty that's drawing the off...and it will eventually receed. Maybe. Not the case for us (our kids are getting older and like the attractions at IOA, in general)...though WWOHP was definitely what got us in the gate...but that's not a compelling case to apply to everyone. We'll have to wait and see. But if the FE expansion is (as has been reported) Disney's "answer" for WWOHP's effect on IOA...they're swiping at the wrong demo, IMHO.

islands of adventure has increased a bump in the last two years...but this is after a prolonged period of turmoil and attendance lags at UOR and probably the second worst economy in american history (and don't think those woods have been cleared yet, sunny jim)

and as others point out: harry potter has been new and big....now it's OVAH...and the real truth shall set us free.

But that's the point: IOA has seen noteable increases.....that we've NOT seen reflected in WDW volume. You're seeing more "samplers" than there used to be. Even with all Disney has done to try to lure (and keep) tourists on their property. There are certainly other factors at work (economics and the proliferation of cheap/clean rooms and cheaper food off property).

We'll see if WWOHP is "OVAH" or not. The movies are done...we'll have to see if the IP starts to decline in popularity. There's a whole generation just getting their hands on those books and getting old enough to watch those movies (which are still EVERYWHERE). I think we've got awhile longer til there is a decline in demand for it.

but what i originally meant is that since disney is tracking average stays to the 5-7/8 range (which it does) as the average length of stay...guests are predicted to "cannibalize" their disney time moving forward...
and that is something that wasn't really the case until AK. they grew form average 2-3 stays in the MK era up till the 7 mark around the opening of AK...and since it has not moved.

To be fair...Disney hasn't given them much of a reason to move, either. I"m not saying they WOULD. Given the way vacation time works in this country....likely not. But AK hasn't exactly provided a reason to extend your stay, either. And there haven't been significant expansions that might make someone reevaluate the amount of time they'd need at WDW to do "everything". 2 days at MK, 2 days at Epcot, a day at DHS, a day at AK...and a day to sample something else (waterpark, Universal Florida, Seaworld...something). That's what I meant by "wiggle room". There is space in that pattern to increase spending per guest. And lets be honest: DHS is 1/2 a day, and so is AK. Drop AK and you can do the sum total of Universal Florida (USF/IOA) most of the year.

There's nothing there that makes a visitor make hard choices.

if they build new lands...or new parks....people now are observed just swapping the "new" in for the old.

See, if I'm Disney...I'm OK with that. Provided the "old" they're swapping out is Universal...and not one of my parks. That's why, strategically, you have to make each park compelling in it's own right.

And those recently released numbers show where and how. EPCOT is stagnating attendance wise...so when they get a gradual bump on fantasyland over the next two years...look for the numbers for EPCOT to fall and probably AK as well....or hold flat which is a loss in their eyes as well. AK was projected at a 15 million annual park - i kid not - that was put down on paper. you wonder why they treat it like the ugly little brother?...wonder no longer.
which means that the money invested is not providing return.

I knew about the AK number...and was mystified when I saw it in their annual reporting. Given what they launched with, I don't think that number was attainable. THAT'S what I mean when I say they lacked vision. After conditioning their guests to expect a certain kind of "day" at a theme park (running from ride to ride, show to show), they completely reversed course with AK and made it and "exploration park". Which is just dandy...to a much more limited demographic (of which, in the interest of full disclosure, I am one). You are not going to pull 15 million with the kind of park they launched with. And, today, it's still the same park...mostly. Everest and Kahli notwithstanding....those two attractions don't really do enough to skew the park BACK to what most WDW guests expect from their theme park experience.

And, the deities know, Disney didn't do a great job at re-educating the guest, or communicating the AK "message". They were great at being preachy with the conservation "message"....just not so good at communicating the parks "identity" message.

They may never be. My guess, though, is that they were so worried about DCA (for good reason) that they had to tackle THAT park first...and use the majority of their fiscal muscle to "fix" it. I think, once that's done...they'll turn their eyes back to AK to see if they can "fix" that, too.

As an aside: I still maintain that, had they launched with Beastly Kingdom, rather than Dinoland...AK probably would have been in better shape. CTX (now Dinosaur!) wasn't going to drive folks into the park. The bandaid that was Chester and Hester's wasn't, ever, going to be what they needed, either. It just had the benefit of being cheap.

so if they were to "finish animal kingdom" or studios...or even build a new gate...what will happen is there will be a slight overall increase....but the majority of travel patterns will just eliminate some of the other disney offerings as a trade off for what's new.

Again, given disney's propensity for convincing guests to stay on their property (and I don't mean "stay" as in get a room...I mean "stay" as in remain in the resort grounds during the day/evening)...I'm not convinced it would be the Disney parks that would see the declines. Especially if they can ward off stagnation. You refresh the parks at a similar time (FE expansion, TT redo, DHS/Pixar expansion, AK expansion), within a year or so of each other, and you'd be in pretty good shape to keep people around.

It's a decent sized investment of resources...but far less than, say, a 5th gate. And far less risky, too. Admittedly hard to do, though, when you've got a billion plus tied up in DCA expansions right now.

and that means if they shave time in the merchandise friendly and high earning parks...mk, epcot, and especially downtown...for new attractions at another location...red alert.

disney is excellent in tracking spending patterns/ market trends/ and interpreting all that guest feedback they get.

That is what the numbers are telling them...that investment does not guarantee increased revenue.

deal breaker.

Which is why I suffixed my earlier exposition: Whether Disney WANTS to solve the problem or not is the question.

Because I think we can all agree, it IS a problem. It just might not be one that's fiscally compelling to solve.

PS: We're pretty far afield of the Avengers discussion, at this point...

 

[fannatic]

Speaking of Universal, has anyone heard a date for the announcement of the Harry Potter expansion into Universal Studios? I've read a possible date somewhere, but I can't remember it. Anyway, I had an interesting e-mail exchange with Universal about a month ago. Among other things, they told me to be watching for news about something I asked them about. I thought there might be a formal announcement along with the Potter one, or maybe it will come later.

 

[DCTooTall]

wouldn't the T-bolt look great with giant plywood cutouts of Thor glued to it?

the answer to the question is:

only cedar fair or six flags...neither of whom would be willing to pony that much up...six flags cause they've already go the other characters under contract...cedar fair cause they don't need em.

I doubt Six Flags would even have the means to do it even if they wanted. They've been in a pretty bad financial situation over the past couple years as it is.

I was referring to the Lord of the Rings heirs about taking money. As for Disney and Universal, I know Disney has a good deal now, but I'm not so sure it's so good for Universal. I'm not trying to knock Universal, I think they're great, but the way they seem to be holding on to Marvel seems a bit desperate. I mean I know that Disney gets properties from other studios, but the majority of Islands of Adventure is licensed. You would think that they wouldn't like having to pay Disney and have them look over their books. I could understand when Marvel was the top draw of the park, but now they're basically turning both parks into Harry Potter world. That's where their increase in attendance has come from.

At this point, From reading the contract, I'd say Universal has the better side of the Marvel deal. They pay a small Licensing fee, but everything else pretty much pays for itself. Disney's ability to "look at the books" is pretty much limited to merch sales to ensure that Universal is giving them the proper royalty payments for the amount of Marvel merch sold. [And considering if they sell Marvel merch purchased from another license Marvel company, That company's royalty payment counts towards Universal's required royalty payment, It works out pretty well for Universal].

With the Risk Universal assumed at the very beginning of the deal (In the late 90's there wasn't much to prove Marvel properties would be a good mainstram draw), the reward at this point is pretty sweet.

And while saturation MAY have been thought to be the culprit (I have no way to know that), I'd be more interested in seeing current guest survey results and what they say about AK. I've heard enough public grousing, in the park, on the boards, and amongst my peer group that I strongly suspect it's not the case, now. I suspect people just don't "get" AK...or, rather ,they don't want it, in it's current incarnation. Not everyone....but a good enough sized population to be noteable.

Honestly... At this point I'm not entirely sure Disney truly "gets" AK.

Agree. Which is why I can see clear a possibility that Disney might try to "rehook" former junkies with new offerings that, quite frankly, have an appeal to certain demos that Disney hasn't been great at catering to (pre-teen and teen boys).

To be clear, these are two different threads of the same thought process.

1) You bring families BACK, who were customers but aren't any longer.

2) You keep current customers on resort property, giving them compelling reasons NOT to sample Universal, Seaworld, Bush Gardens, etc.

They're not mutually exclusive...but there is some overlap.

You know what would be a GREAT way to keep current customer's on Resort property?? Give them something fun to do after the parks close. You know... like maybe a fun nighttime destination where people can continue to have some fun....

Oh... wait. They had one... and killed it.... and got confused about what they were gonna do with it.

I don't know if that's true. My wife and I went to IOA back in 2000. We had not returned til last year (2011). We'll be going back in 2012. That's a night on their property and a day in their parks that, previously, had been spent on Disney property. Anecdotally, that's what I hear, too, on these boards and in discussing vacations with other parents in our area. Maybe it is...but I've seen enough compelling anecdotal evidence to make me think otherwise. Prior to WWOHP....most people I talked to went to Disney and, pretty much, stuck to the WDW parks. Some, with older kids, might have ventured off property here and there...but that was the exception, not the rule. Now....it seems like more families are making an IOA "stop" at SOME point during their trip.

Given IOA's attendance bump (after being pretty stagnant) and NOT seeing a commesurate bump in WDW park volume...those visitors are coming from somewhere. They're not "IOA only" visitors, you'd think. So either existing visitors are extending their stay...or they're choosing IOA over one of the disney parks.

Now, the argument I've seen is that it's WWOHP's novelty that's drawing the off...and it will eventually receed. Maybe. Not the case for us (our kids are getting older and like the attractions at IOA, in general)...though WWOHP was definitely what got us in the gate...but that's not a compelling case to apply to everyone. We'll have to wait and see. But if the FE expansion is (as has been reported) Disney's "answer" for WWOHP's effect on IOA...they're swiping at the wrong demo, IMHO.

I think what is more likely is that with Harry Potter, people who hadn't previously given the Universal Parks a shot (Or did so YEARS ago) have decided to venture over to experience the Harry Potter Stuff. But once they've been there, they realize how good the Universal parks actually are and realize they are just as worthy of spending time at as the Disney Parks. Previously, most people probably thought of them as just an upgraded Six Flags type park because they had coasters without anything to draw them there when on a vacation far from home.

But that's the point: IOA has seen noteable increases.....that we've NOT seen reflected in WDW volume. You're seeing more "samplers" than there used to be. Even with all Disney has done to try to lure (and keep) tourists on their property. There are certainly other factors at work (economics and the proliferation of cheap/clean rooms and cheaper food off property).

We'll see if WWOHP is "OVAH" or not. The movies are done...we'll have to see if the IP starts to decline in popularity. There's a whole generation just getting their hands on those books and getting old enough to watch those movies (which are still EVERYWHERE). I think we've got awhile longer til there is a decline in demand for it.

Again, I think that a large part of IOA's increases are from people who have finally given the park a shot who previously believed nothing could possibly beat or match Disney for their away-from-home vacation. WWOHP finally gave people a reason to check it out who may not have done so previously. So while the bump could in large part be credited to WWOHP, I think the fact that it's still going strong can be attributed to the fact it's a very solid park.

Think about it for a bit. Universal Studio's opened around 1990...and had some HORRIBLE growing pains. When it first opened, People would visit it to check it out, but because of those growing pains, and honestly, the park itself being a bit on the 'eh' side, it likely didn't have the draw to really bring people over and keep them.

When IOA (And the expanded Universal Resort) opened in '99, Things were already stagnating a bit because of the economy slowdown that happened around the tech bubble crash. Throw in 9/11, and the resulting travel industry collapse, and IOA never had a chance to truly showcase it's merits to a large number of people traveling to the area. Disney's deep discounts over the years (and AK opening), as well as things like Magic Express didn't give the people traveling to Disney a reason to venture off the property to Universal. WWOHP changed that by actually giving people that reason to venture off-property.

What I think we are also seeing helping the Universal Resort #'s, beyond just Harry Potter, is that people who have gone for Harry are starting to see some of the other improvements to the resort complex since it's original days of 1 park. Citywalk actually provides a decent nightlife experience for Adults that Disney no longer offers since killing PI. (Oddly enough, shortly before the bump in IOA attendance from WWOHP). The way Universal does their Express passes as a free perk for onsite guests, as well as Early Entry into WWOHP, has also prompted more people to experience the onsite hotels at Universal (Which weren't there prior to IOA's opening)... which is also helping to drive Universal growth. It doesn't hurt that compared to Disney Deluxe pricing the Universal Hotels over a much nicer and relaxing experience at a better bang-for-your-buck.

Speaking of Universal, has anyone heard a date for the announcement of the Harry Potter expansion into Universal Studios? I've read a possible date somewhere, but I can't remember it. Anyway, I had an interesting e-mail exchange with Universal about a month ago. Among other things, they told me to be watching for news about something I asked them about. I thought there might be a formal announcement along with the Potter one, or maybe it will come later.

Nothing official has been announced, or even hinted at. All we have are rumors that Jaws is being replaced with Harry Potter Phase 2, but at this point it's only a rumor. Until an official announcement comes (Or Building permits/vertical construction starts), I would give anything you hear from "insiders" at universal the same level of belief as we give Disney Bus Drivers when it comes to Disney Rumors.

Add in that with Jaws they only gave us about a month's notice before they shut it down, I don't really expect any early announcements. I honestly wouldn't expect anything at all until after the summer season at the very earliest. I doubt they'd want to draw attention away from the new Despicable Me attraction opening up this summer.

 

[fannatic]

This wasn't from an insider, it was from a nice company spokesperson. I'm not sure if it was true, but if it is, some of you need to fasten your seat belts and brace yourselves.

 

[DCTooTall]

This wasn't from an insider, it was from a nice company spokesperson. I'm not sure if it was true, but if it is, some of you need to fasten your seat belts and brace yourselves.

Official Spokespeople are the ones talking to the media and big official announcements. The Press Release kind of people.

If the person you spoke to was someone who called you back or answered a question you submitted to the company, odds are it wasn't a spokesperson but a regular customer service or guest relations person. People on that level aren't going to have any official information until maybe a day before it's officially released by the company. (Same as employees at a Disney Park.)

 

[fannatic]

While they basically confirmed that what I had guessed was right, they said that it hasn't been officially announced and they didn't have the details. Then, seriously, they had a bunch of legal restrictions at the bottom saying that it was confidential, protected information. They also said that if I had got the e-mail by mistake that I was to delete it. I've never had that from guest relations. I Googled the topic last night and found a forum where someone was right on target about the information, I don't know if they had a lucky guess like me, or if they actually knew about the plans.

 

[DCTooTall]

While they basically confirmed that what I had guessed was right, they said that it hasn't been officially announced and they didn't have the details. Then, seriously, they had a bunch of legal restrictions at the bottom saying that it was confidential, protected information. They also said that if I had got the e-mail by mistake that I was to delete it. I've never had that from guest relations. I Googled the topic last night and found a forum where someone was right on target about the information, I don't know if they had a lucky guess like me, or if they actually knew about the plans.

Oh.... You mean this?

PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL
This email, including any attachments, contains information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged . This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this email was as noted above. The unauthorized use, distribution, copying or alteration of this email is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure or action taken in reliance on the information contained in this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please advise the sender immediately by return email and then delete it from your system.

That's the standard boilerplate sig on all emails to Universal's Guest relations. From my time doing E-support for another company, and it's placement in the email, I'm pretty sure that it's automatically tagged onto all responses coming out of their E-Support ticketing system.

It's also pretty standard boilerplate that a LOT of companies have on all sorts of emails. At my current job I know a bunch of people who have pretty similar sigs on their email. (Which even gets applied by their email client when they forward me a funny link or the latest goofy email forward going around)


My point is that just because someone has this on their email back to you, doesn't mean they are coming from a position of knowing what's happening behind the scenes.

 

[XGrumpy1]

I could so see a "Soaring" ride in the new Avatarland. Would love that ride, how about a 3D soaring?

 

[pilferk]

This wasn't from an insider, it was from a nice company spokesperson. I'm not sure if it was true, but if it is, some of you need to fasten your seat belts and brace yourselves.

You may be confusing the USH HP expansion with the rumored USF HP expansionm (or the CS agent was).

Jaws at USF closing, and the rumors of a WWOHP expansion there, were swirling RIGHT around the time of the official USH announcement. I know other folks got confused by the timing.

 

[pilferk]

Honestly... At this point I'm not entirely sure Disney truly "gets" AK.

Agreed. They're just not exactly sure what to do to "fix" it...and they're so entrenched in "fixing" DCA..I don't think they're giving it much thought right now.

You know what would be a GREAT way to keep current customer's on Resort property?? Give them something fun to do after the parks close. You know... like maybe a fun nighttime destination where people can continue to have some fun....

Oh... wait. They had one... and killed it.... and got confused about what they were gonna do with it.

Pleasure Island was, and continues to be, a debacle. As soon as they stopped charging admission, and allowing in the under age sect...you could see the writing on the wall. Honestly, though..the only parts I really miss are the Comedy Warehouse and the Adventurer's club (KUNGALOOSH!!!). The dance clubs were not great.....

But still...you'd think Disney could manage SOMETHING, given the space they have available at DTD. The Boardwalk is nice....but it's not enough.

I think what is more likely is that with Harry Potter, people who hadn't previously given the Universal Parks a shot (Or did so YEARS ago) have decided to venture over to experience the Harry Potter Stuff. But once they've been there, they realize how good the Universal parks actually are and realize they are just as worthy of spending time at as the Disney Parks. Previously, most people probably thought of them as just an upgraded Six Flags type park because they had coasters without anything to draw them there when on a vacation far from home.

That was sort of the point I was trying to make with our anecdotal experience. That's in line with what I've seen and heard: People went for WWOHP...and are going back because they enjoyed the rest of the park. The rides appeal to their older kids. And, on our side, my son is a super hero freak who is more interested in Marvel than WWOHP.

Universal is now getting a day (in their hotel, and then at IOA) of my vacation time that Disney use to own. If there was a hard choice for me to make...I might reconsider that visit and go back to 100% Disney. But, right now, there isn't. In the interest of full disclosure: My family takes longer trips (10 to 11 days, depending on flying or driving, including arrival and departure day), so we're not the ideal model. But our friends (who take shorter trips) and a LOT of posters on these boards seem to be taking a similar bent.

Again, I think that a large part of IOA's increases are from people who have finally given the park a shot who previously believed nothing could possibly beat or match Disney for their away-from-home vacation. WWOHP finally gave people a reason to check it out who may not have done so previously. So while the bump could in large part be credited to WWOHP, I think the fact that it's still going strong can be attributed to the fact it's a very solid park.

Think about it for a bit. Universal Studio's opened around 1990...and had some HORRIBLE growing pains. When it first opened, People would visit it to check it out, but because of those growing pains, and honestly, the park itself being a bit on the 'eh' side, it likely didn't have the draw to really bring people over and keep them.

When IOA (And the expanded Universal Resort) opened in '99, Things were already stagnating a bit because of the economy slowdown that happened around the tech bubble crash. Throw in 9/11, and the resulting travel industry collapse, and IOA never had a chance to truly showcase it's merits to a large number of people traveling to the area. Disney's deep discounts over the years (and AK opening), as well as things like Magic Express didn't give the people traveling to Disney a reason to venture off the property to Universal. WWOHP changed that by actually giving people that reason to venture off-property.

What I think we are also seeing helping the Universal Resort #'s, beyond just Harry Potter, is that people who have gone for Harry are starting to see some of the other improvements to the resort complex since it's original days of 1 park. Citywalk actually provides a decent nightlife experience for Adults that Disney no longer offers since killing PI. (Oddly enough, shortly before the bump in IOA attendance from WWOHP). The way Universal does their Express passes as a free perk for onsite guests, as well as Early Entry into WWOHP, has also prompted more people to experience the onsite hotels at Universal (Which weren't there prior to IOA's opening)... which is also helping to drive Universal growth. It doesn't hurt that compared to Disney Deluxe pricing the Universal Hotels over a much nicer and relaxing experience at a better bang-for-your-buck.

Agree. The question is: How much brand loyalty are they/have they built and, if Disney forces tourists to make harder choices (skipping a compelling incarnation of AK, for example) to get to Universal...will they still head out to IOA. We don't know.

 

[fannatic]

My question wasn't about Harry Potter or the Studios park. I guess I'll just have to wait and see if they were telling the truth or not, won't I?

 

[DCTooTall]

Pleasure Island was, and continues to be, a debacle. As soon as they stopped charging admission, and allowing in the under age sect...you could see the writing on the wall. Honestly, though..the only parts I really miss are the Comedy Warehouse and the Adventurer's club (KUNGALOOSH!!!). The dance clubs were not great.....

But still...you'd think Disney could manage SOMETHING, given the space they have available at DTD. The Boardwalk is nice....but it's not enough.

i'm still sad I never got a chance to hit the Adventurer's club. Sadly when I used to make regular trips down to Disney I was too young to get into PI... then once I was old enough and restarted my trips down there, I discover on my first trip back in 10 years, my last night in town and the night I finally made it to PI... that they were closing everything in 2 months. I never made it to AC before the night ended.

And Honestly... I'm not sure I'd even say Boardwalk is nice. a couple restaurants, and 2 'clubs'.... one dance, and another piano bar. Factor in the pain in getting there...especcially when you stay offsite.... and It's just not even comparable.

That was sort of the point I was trying to make with our anecdotal experience. That's in line with what I've seen and heard: People went for WWOHP...and are going back because they enjoyed the rest of the park. The rides appeal to their older kids. And, on our side, my son is a super hero freak who is more interested in Marvel than WWOHP.

Universal is now getting a day (in their hotel, and then at IOA) of my vacation time that Disney use to own. If there was a hard choice for me to make...I might reconsider that visit and go back to 100% Disney. But, right now, there isn't. In the interest of full disclosure: My family takes longer trips (10 to 11 days, depending on flying or driving, including arrival and departure day), so we're not the ideal model. But our friends (who take shorter trips) and a LOT of posters on these boards seem to be taking a similar bent.

I'm easily not a perfect model either. Between longer trips, and traditionally being Solo, It's a lot easier for me to spend a lot of time in both parks.

Honestly though, i also wouldn't be surprised if Universal's additions ended up doing more to have people consider extending their vacation time in the area than anything Disney has done in the past 15yrs.

Agree. The question is: How much brand loyalty are they/have they built and, if Disney forces tourists to make harder choices (skipping a compelling incarnation of AK, for example) to get to Universal...will they still head out to IOA. We don't know.

From what I've seen.... I'd say that Universal has generated a good amount of brand loyalty. Is it Disney Levels? No. For some people Disney can do no wrong and anything else is only a sad attempt to compete. But they have generated enough that it would be a serious contender for many.

And I'll say that Disney is already forcing people to make some hard choices in deciding if they want to go to Universal. With Disney Ticket prices what they are, I really wouldn't be surprised to find more people skipping a Disney Day to hit Universal. With the fact that the recent price increase actually resulted in a price DROP for PH/WP&M combo tickets, I could even see more people picking up those tickets with fewer base days, combining their MGM and AK days with thanks to the hopper ability, And then hitting a Water Park and the Universal Parks to fill out their Vacation.

 

[DCTooTall]

My question wasn't about Harry Potter or the Studios park. I guess I'll just have to wait and see if they were telling the truth or not, won't I?

Please don't tell me you are buying into the Transformers Ride rumors? Not happening in Florida for quite some time... if Ever.

The Ride is pretty much the EXACT Same ride as Spiderman (In the same way that Indiana Jones at DL and Dinosaur at AK are the exact same ride with a different skin), so there is no reason whatsoever they would build 2 of the same ride at the same parks.

And then the rumor of basically replacing Spiderman with Transformers.... THAT is not going to happen anytime in the foreseeable future since Universal just spent a MASSIVE amount of money completely upgrading the ride film for Spiderman, and have made the new Spiderman and Despicable Me additions central to their Park Marketing this year. For them to plan on replacing it would almost be akin to Disney completing the Snow White Dwarfs Coaster, letting it run as Snow white for a year.... and then re-skinning it as a Coaster mine ride from Indy & the Temple of Doom.

 

[fannatic]

I'm not going to comment on what I asked, or how it was answered. As to the Transformers rumor, from what I've heard on sites, they upgraded the projection system at Spider-Man so that it could be the same as Transformers. Spielberg has hinted that Transformers is coming to Orlando. Why would they put the exact same ride as Spider-Man in their parks? Disney doesn't do that. For example, Dinosaur is supposedly the same as Indiana Jones, so we don't have the Temple ride at WDW. They also have a Spider-Man ride in Japan that has a 10 year contract - maybe the Orlando film will be their update. Anyway, off topic, I read on another site that Disney has sent e-mails, like a survey, out to pitch a Lord of the Rings land. They quoted it and it sounded really interesting.

 

[fannatic]

Okay, the article was a year or two old. It doesn't mean it's going to happen. Many have reported a email done by Disney giving a pitch to the Lord of the Rings theme park. Here’s a quote from that email.
Quote:
Imagine if you will a world unlike any you’ve ever visited before: it’s Middle Earth, the ancient and beautiful land forged by J.R.R. Tolkien as the backdrop for his two most well known creations, Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. Walk as a human among dwarves, elves, orcs and hobbits — all faithfully recreated and portrayed in the spirit of the original characters as they appeared in both the books and the movies. In this land you’ll experience one-of-a-kind rides and attractions that bring to life some of the most memorable experiences of Tolkien’s world including Bilbo’s hobbit hole, the fortress at Isengard (before it was destroyed) and even the dark world of Mordor — including the terrifying volcanic Mount Doom. just a pitch to get public reaction: