DAS Outrage vs Genie Plus Outrage?

"To make things fair, Disney could make sure that DAS users can't just get a pass and then go off to eat or do other things in the park. Then, there wouldn't be such a big incentive to lie and abuse the system."
Respectfully, this punishes me and other disabled people due to the cheaters. We are not the offenders. Another posted said pretty much the same thing... So you do not believe I should be able to get a cold drink on a hot day or take my ECV into a shop to cool off? That is cruel IMO.

Maybe you and the OP really weren't thinking of the ramifications. I really hope not.

Without getting too deep, I have a very low tolerance (medically) to heat and humidity amongst other issues. Why do I go? Well, we haven't been since the end of 2022 as it is getting harder to travel, however I love my family and at some point I will have to try to do another trip. See, it is the disabled who are being punished here. My first trip was in 1973, we've been DVC since 1996 when things were a bit different for me. It can happen to you or anyone, unfortunately. I hope it never does.

Peace and good health. :hippie:
 
@DontSpamMe 'I figure if you have a true disability that prevents you from waiting in lines you'll do what you need to.'

Like not go? I really don't know any other assumption that can be made by your comment, respectfully. I promise I am not taking your spot in line. I am lucky if I do one or two rides a park day, sometimes none. We need to stop blaming the disabled. Put the blame where it belongs on the cheaters. WDW needs to figure out how to identify and punish them. Trust me, we didn't ask to be disabled for goodness sakes!

Peace and good health. :hippie:
 
I feel 100% the abuse is due to the rising costs which have always outpaced inflation. We've been going to disneyland annually since way before kids. We regularly went at least 3 days, sometimes 4-5, with just the 2 of us and used the FP system. Not only could we afford to go that many days, but there was no sense of urgency because we had plenty of time to do everything, and even took half days.

Once our first came, we started going 4-5 days because we needed to take more breaks and go at a slower pace. We could still afford it, even down to one income, and still got (most) things done. I say "most" because my son was diagnosed with autism at age 4. There were rides we had to do rider switch on or skipped altogether because of his issues prior to his dx. And we needed those 5 days so we keep all the breaks.

When I found out about GAC (at the time) after he was diagnosed, it felt like a miracle and we felt "normal" for the first time. We rode rides we hadn't been on in years or able to do as a family because GAC allowed us to avoid the queues that triggered him. We were also able to spend more time in the parks before his "tolerance bank account" ran dry. We still went 5 days because disney was the only place that made us feel like a normal family. Our son loved it, it was truly magical for him.

Fast forward to now. My son is 19 and still autistic. He's very high functioning, but the fact of the matter is his "tolerance bank account" still depletes at a faster rate than the rest of us. Every queue he has to stand in -- dealing with the smells and noises, holding himself together with adequate space around him when everything in his body just wants to crash around like a human bumper car -- is exhausting and makes multiple "withdraws" from his account. And once his account is empty, that's it. He's done for the day and it doesn't reset until the next morning. DAS enables him to stay at the parks longer and enjoy multiple rides with us -- we feel like a "normal" family. Doing "nothing" between those rides would cause him to deplete just as fast, if not faster, because of the anxiety and boredom. This does nothing for those on the spectrum and their families. Think of it this way, if my son can only last 6 hours in the park, DAS helps us make the most of those 6 hours to feel like we had a "normal" disney day like other families with rides, food, and shows packed into that short span.

But now disney costs MUCH more, both tickets and food. We can't afford to go 5 days anymore. I paid twice as much for 3 day hoppers with genie+ in December than I did for 5 day hoppers in 2019. The free FP services are gone and replaced with a horrible version limiting one ride per day, and not even every ride at that! You still have to pay extra for OLD rides like RSR! The DAS is far superior to genie+, saving $50+ a day. OF COURSE, there's going to be more abuse!

So personally, I would gladly welcome showing proof of disability. This is so much easier than fumbling to explain how certain lines still trigger my "normal-looking" 19 year old into 3 year old temper tantrums.

And disney needs to wake up and offer a genie+ product with more value than the DAS. Back when we had maxpass, I actually used that more than the DAS because we still had to run around to the stupid umbrellas.
Love this response, and it's pretty much the same for DS27 special needs--except he probably doesn't blend as well as your son (i.e. is more obvious special needs). Our park time has always been very limited due to his tolerance bank. In the GAC days we used to get in quite a bit of rides in those few park hours, but that has changed dramatically over the 20+ years . Now, we regularly leave or don't get into the long "lightning" lanes and are lucky to get in a handful of rides on a good day. I actually point this out when we go to the CM about his DAS. I tell them to look at his history--we probably average 2-3 DAS rides a day. Depending on the day, we probably spend 4-6 hours at the park max.

I just posted in the WDW thread, but I actually think it would be fairly easy to prove DD and a certain level of impairment in CA that could serve as a good presumption without having the song and dance: Regional Center. And I suspect that is what Disney was getting getting at with the new guidelines they posted about DD/autism: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=WIC§ionNum=4512.
 
Respectfully, this punishes me and other disabled people due to the cheaters. We are not the offenders. Another posted said pretty much the same thing... So you do not believe I should be able to get a cold drink on a hot day or take my ECV into a shop to cool off? That is cruel IMO.

Maybe you and the OP really weren't thinking of the ramifications. I really hope not.

Without getting too deep, I have a very low tolerance (medically) to heat and humidity amongst other issues. Why do I go? Well, we haven't been since the end of 2022 as it is getting harder to travel, however I love my family and at some point I will have to try to do another trip. See, it is the disabled who are being punished here. My first trip was in 1973, we've been DVC since 1996 when things were a bit different for me. It can happen to you or anyone, unfortunately. I hope it never does.

Peace and good health. :hippie:
I think anyone waiting for their DAS time to open should be able to sit, shop, eat, drink or use the bathroom during that time. I think cheaters would be fewer if they weren't allowed to go on other rides while waiting or I if they eliminate the ability to get rides ahead of their visit during the DAS sign up. Cheaters will continue to game the system by lying about whatever disability is most likely to get them a pass as long as there are benefits to do so. Making changes like these would IMHO level the playing field and so should reduce the numbers getting DAS when they don't really have a need.
 


I think anyone waiting for their DAS time to open should be able to sit, shop, eat, drink or use the bathroom during that time.
I totally agree. Anyone waiting for a LL is allowed to amuse themselves as they like or eat while waiting for their time slot, so why shouldn't DAS users be able to? They should also be allowed to go on standby rides if they want to.

People who use DAS need the service more, but LL and DAS essentially do the same thing—Allow you to enjoy the park while you're waiting for your turn. That's what both systems and fastpass were intended for.
 
I totally agree. Anyone waiting for a LL is allowed to amuse themselves as they like or eat while waiting for their time slot, so why shouldn't DAS users be able to? They should also be allowed to go on standby rides if they want to.

People who use DAS need the service more, but LL and DAS essentially do the same thing—Allow you to enjoy the park while you're waiting for your turn. That's what both systems and fastpass were intended for.
I agree except for the point of going on standby rides. As long as they charge for LL or Genie+, allowing standby rides for free DAS pass holders will still be seen as a benefit and a lure for cheaters.
 
The only way to prevent people riding other rides while holding a ride with DAS or LL, is to have everyone scan for each ride. Not sure if that's ideal.
 


Anyone can park in the handicap slot too. Nothing really preventing them to do so -- and some DO.

I've never seen enforcement of the handicap parking; yet most abide by the rules.

DAS in its current form has been too easy and lucrative for those to get and take advantage of its intended use (as defined by Disney). Disney is trying to address DAS abuse.

Disney is also trying to address other non-DAS qualifying disabilities in a way that remains true to its core nature ability to make reasonable accommodations. It remains UNCLEAR the how at this time. Lots of speculation for sure, but the process is unclear.

Perhaps those here truly wish to be engaged with the process should reach out and offer to be active participants on beta-testing possible processes to see if they are viable and be part of the change management that Disney clearly is moving forward with come June--make lemonade.
 
Respectfully, this punishes me and other disabled people due to the cheaters. We are not the offenders. Another posted said pretty much the same thing... So you do not believe I should be able to get a cold drink on a hot day or take my ECV into a shop to cool off? That is cruel IMO.

Maybe you and the OP really weren't thinking of the ramifications. I really hope not.

Without getting too deep, I have a very low tolerance (medically) to heat and humidity amongst other issues. Why do I go? Well, we haven't been since the end of 2022 as it is getting harder to travel, however I love my family and at some point I will have to try to do another trip. See, it is the disabled who are being punished here. My first trip was in 1973, we've been DVC since 1996 when things were a bit different for me. It can happen to you or anyone, unfortunately. I hope it never does.

Peace and good health. :hippie:

I never said you shouldn't be able to get a cool drink on a hot day and be able to cool off.

There's many ways to address an incentive problem, including making life better for all guests.
Volcano Bay in Florida already uses a virtual queue for pretty much all attractions, so everyone, not just people with disabilities can get in a virtual line and then do other things while waiting. An alternate solution could be to create waiting rooms in each land with drinks, bathrooms and minor entertainment that anyone can use while waiting for a ride.

On a hot day, pretty much everyone wants a cold drink or be able to go into a space to cool off. Instead of thinking of how to make things worse for people with DAS, wouldn't it be great if everyone could have a better waiting experience?

Solutions to the problem of people cheating to use DAS can follow several different approaches:
1. Give some of the benefits of DAS to people without DAS so there's less incentive to cheat
2. Remove benefits from DAS so people without DAS aren't as incentivised to cheat
3. Make it harder for people to cheat
4. Ignore the problem

The choice of solution has an economic component because it will affect things like how much money Disney makes from Genie+ and how much it costs them to run these systems. But there's also a moral component as people have different ideas of what special priviledges people with disabilities should get and when it becomes an unfair advantage.
 
But there's also a moral component as people have different ideas of what special priviledges people with disabilities should get and when it becomes an unfair advantage.
I wish it was only a matter of a cold drink...I did not misread your original post.
I highlighted your last sentence which pretty much sums it all up.

I would gladly trade bodies with you so I could stand in line with everyone else like I used to. Maybe you haven't had multiple eye surgeries (while awake) with two surgeons with sharp knives trying to save your sight...or approaching stairs wondering if you might trip even while clinging to the railings? Have a panic attack while approaching an escalator. Struggle to get on/off a ride and not fall down. I do not want you to feel sorry for me.

Did I sign an autograph for you at EPCOT when I was able bodied? Maybe we chatted it up as I was a featured artist for several days in 1993. I was not in an ECV then. I walked the two miles around the lake every night after talking with guests all day. You may have seen my paintings or even bought one as Disney sold my work for several years. Does that make it any different?

There are NO "special privileges" when you are disabled. Being disabled does not make one a cheat. I never knew what it was to be disabled until I was...it happens. Your post makes me sad more than anything else.

I will continue to advocate for the disabled. I am sorry you may never understand, truly sorry.
 
My girlfriend isn't easy to spot, but she has been treated for a variety of things over several years. She doesn't have it easy. She struggles with things that I do not. And she no longer qualifies for a DAS pass.

I'm not here to bemoan the choice that Disney has made, I'm grateful for the past 3 years that she was able to make use of DAS. It made a huge difference in our trips, and not simply because of easy accessibility to rides. DAS meant that she was able to enjoy Disney Parks without regularly experiencing terrible symptoms. Going forward, I hope Disney is able to make satisfactory inroads toward a better park experience for guests with disabilities.
 
I wish it was only a matter of a cold drink...I did not misread your original post.
I highlighted your last sentence which pretty much sums it all up.

I would gladly trade bodies with you so I could stand in line with everyone else like I used to. Maybe you haven't had multiple eye surgeries (while awake) with two surgeons with sharp knives trying to save your sight...or approaching stairs wondering if you might trip even while clinging to the railings? Have a panic attack while approaching an escalator. Struggle to get on/off a ride and not fall down. I do not want you to feel sorry for me.

Did I sign an autograph for you at EPCOT when I was able bodied? Maybe we chatted it up as I was a featured artist for several days in 1993. I was not in an ECV then. I walked the two miles around the lake every night after talking with guests all day. You may have seen my paintings or even bought one as Disney sold my work for several years. Does that make it any different?

There are NO "special privileges" when you are disabled. Being disabled does not make one a cheat. I never knew what it was to be disabled until I was...it happens. Your post makes me sad more than anything else.

I will continue to advocate for the disabled. I am sorry you may never understand, truly sorry.

I indeed do not understand. I believe that it would be good if Disney made the waiting experience better for everyone. Would this also be something you think is good or is there some reason you don't want other people to have a better experience in the parks?

In terms of wording and terminology, I hope you will at least agree that people using DAS are able to do things that people not using DAS cannot do. Some people will see this as a reasonable accomodation while others will see it as an unfair advantage.
 
I indeed do not understand. I believe that it would be good if Disney made the waiting experience better for everyone. Would this also be something you think is good or is there some reason you don't want other people to have a better experience in the parks?

In terms of wording and terminology, I hope you will at least agree that people using DAS are able to do things that people not using DAS cannot do. Some people will see this as a reasonable accomodation while others will see it as an unfair advantage.
It is about equity, not equality.

I guarantee you folk with any signifiacnt disability will readily swap places with a non-disabled.person. There is no question that.

Even on a best day, much of those with disabilities have to surmount obstacles that would be routine nothing burgers.

so while I can see regular folk eyeing anything they aren't privy to as an unfair advantage, the assist in reality providing a lift that may equalize the overall experience.

Those who think otherwise, come spend an entire day with us in our DAS group. I will gladly add you. See how much the DAS holder needs to do to.maintain during the day and the effort of the caretakers. Empathy may just happen
 
It is about equity, not equality.

I guarantee you folk with any signifiacnt disability will readily swap places with a non-disabled.person. There is no question that.

Even on a best day, much of those with disabilities have to surmount obstacles that would be routine nothing burgers.

so while I can see regular folk eyeing anything they aren't privy to as an unfair advantage, the assist in reality providing a lift that may equalize the overall experience.

Those who think otherwise, come spend an entire day with us in our DAS group. I will gladly add you. See how much the DAS holder needs to do to.maintain during the day and the effort of the caretakers. Empathy may just happen

I believe it is good to help everyone have a better overall experience. This makes free Fastpass is better than Genie+ because more people would be able to skip lines without paying. So I would not agree if someone said that the current system with Genie+ and DAS is better on accounts of it being potentially more equitable.

I also understand that people with disabilities face many challenges and I agree there should be accomodations where it makes sense. But I do not think that these accomodations must requrie people without disabilities to have a lesser experience for the sake of perceived equity. It seems like you may potentially disagree with me on this. If so, we may have different ideas of what is desirable.

As someone who appreciates when my friends help me have a better experience in the parks and likes to return the favor, I don't think I would want to spend a day with your group. You wrote in an earlier post that you do not wish for people to feel sorry for you but later expressed that you felt sorry for me. This makes me feel like you would not treat me the way you wish to be treated.

I appologize if things I wrote come off as unempathetic or sadden you. While I probably don't agree with you on this issue, I can respect that you are advocating for what you think is right.
 
I mean, I'm upset at Disney for making a tier System in the parks

Add the 30 bucks to tickets and have one line. Done
They won't do that, because the point is increase the daily spend for passholders. It's a "bait and switch." They tell passholders they can visit as many times as they like "without any additional charge", but get them to pay for as many "extras" as possible to have a decent experience.

In Disneyland, many passes don't even include free parking, anymore. I guess, in Disneyworld, they figure they get enough money from Passholders buying food, especially during the near continual festivals, so they make parking free because they want you to visit. But, in both parks, if you want to go on rides without waiting for hours, you have to pay extra.

Increasing ticket prices to increase daily spend for Passholders by $30/day would depend on average annual visits. Only Disney knows that, but let's say it is once per week: in that case, they would need to increase the price of every annual pass by about $1500. Sure, some rich folks would still buy it anyway, and EPCOT would be a lot less crowded which would be good for the wealthy who could afford it, but Disney would probably lose a lot of money from food sales to the less wealthy crowd. I guess they'd have to switch to selling champagne and caviar instead of beer and grilled cheese to make up the difference.
 
I watched this with DD10 last night - yes, the entire thing. Her take-away - why not just remove the whole thing and just have people wait in line like we did in 2020?
A couple of notes;
He has updated the video to address G+, but this was pre-implementation. My observation is G+ has made the standby lines worse than FP+, but he's basically said Disney has taken the premium away from the on-site guests and given it to the G+ guests. Either way, still broken.

He does not consider the impact of DAS (which, if not being cheated, should not be that big of a deal) - and neither do I. Reason being, DAS was being used even in 2020.
 
2020, the year with the lowest attendance in recent history? Ask her to wait during some of the busiest days of the year and see what she thinks.
Did you watch the video? She did. She's also waited in a nearly stationary Frozen standby line. It sucks and it's not supposed to be that bad. We also went in 2021, about a month before G+ started. "Before" was better.

Of very important note; the FP (now G+) system is patterned off of the single line at a ski resort - but it's backwards. the vast majority of people in a ski lift line getting on the chairs are in the regular line. With G+ the vast majority of people getting on the ride are in the G+ line.
 
I believe it is good to help everyone have a better overall experience. This makes free Fastpass is better than Genie+ because more people would be able to skip lines without paying. So I would not agree if someone said that the current system with Genie+ and DAS is better on accounts of it being potentially more equitable.

I also understand that people with disabilities face many challenges and I agree there should be accomodations where it makes sense. But I do not think that these accomodations must requrie people without disabilities to have a lesser experience for the sake of perceived equity. It seems like you may potentially disagree with me on this. If so, we may have different ideas of what is desirable.

As someone who appreciates when my friends help me have a better experience in the parks and likes to return the favor, I don't think I would want to spend a day with your group. You wrote in an earlier post that you do not wish for people to feel sorry for you but later expressed that you felt sorry for me. This makes me feel like you would not treat me the way you wish to be treated.

I appologize if things I wrote come off as unempathetic or sadden you. While I probably don't agree with you on this issue, I can respect that you are advocating for what you think is right.

Some folk believe Disney's action should be the left side while Disney is trying to accomplish the right side. Some think Disney is giving the the kid in the purple 2.5 boxes even. Perhaps. I agree the two preselects and allowance of immediate rebooking are part of that 2.5 box perception and excessive IMHO.

Is it right or wrong? That's debatable for sure and the good for the goose is good for the gander is an opinion to be had.

I agree that return to FP with FP-Max would be ideal - Disney clearly wants G+ cash cow.

No offense taken at all, we just believe the issue through a different lens. Likewise, I do not mean to offend, but wanted to understand why you feel that we would treat you any differently.

My point of joining a DAS group is simply to help understand that even at 2.5 boxes being provided. The true quality and duration of the Disney day is not just a view of the game or a simple queue time.

IISC_EqualityEquity.png
 
Did you watch the video? She did. She's also waited in a nearly stationary Frozen standby line. It sucks and it's not supposed to be that bad. We also went in 2021, about a month before G+ started. "Before" was better.
No, I don't plan on watching the video. I don't need to dig into an operation system of an amusement park. It's fine if you want to teach your child the patience of waiting. It's not fine if you want to remove an entire system from a theme park just because it doesn't work for you. Notice the bolded words. After all, we're talking about Disney, not some serious issues.
 

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