DEBATE: When does the "Disney Experience" cease to exist?

[DisneyKidds]

(Note: the following post is me prattling on, answering DVC-Landbaron’s question about how I could possibly feel his comments on boxes pertain to kids and kiddie rides at WDW. Read or ignore as you see fit .)

Silly, indeed . A few final thoughts from me and I’m punching out.

What we have is a problem of two entirely different discussions, not unlike Scoop’s Poly vs. AKL thread. That darn medium getting in the way again . What I have been discussing has nothing to do with Aladdin. It may have seemed to as I needed to make a basic point before I got to the main point regarding your comments on kids, Walt, and boxes. You don’t seem to grasp that. It has nothing to do with my like or dislike for Aladdin. I could really care less about the ride. I’ll go on it with my family and have a magical Disney experience, others don’t have to – no big deal. Your point has everything to do with Aladdin. So quit asking me if I can grasp that .

I grasp that you feel that Disney blew it with Aladdin. I get that you feel they used the wrong colors, they used cheap plastic, they used a cartoon camel in the middle of a non-cartoon land, they plopped it in the middle of a walkway, it is an eyesore, it detracts from your pleasure of enjoying Adventureland, it is based on 30 year old technology. I get all of that. I can see why you say that. Let’s just say I agree with all of that. There, end of that discussion. I agree – it doesn’t fit. Happy? But that isn’t what I have been prattling on about.

Since you still seem to wonder, and have asked several times, how I can possibly say that your comments belittle kids, Walt, and the parks, I’ll explain. I’ll preface this with the notion that I could be misreading your posts (not like that hasn’t happened before ). Had this been a case of your not taking the time to really read what I had been saying throughout the thread, or a case of you making a tongue in cheek jab at a ridiculous notion (a smile = Disney) that you knew I wasn’t putting forth, I would have let it go. However, you went to great lengths to point out that neither was the case, and point out exactly what you were insulting. So, since you asked…………

It appears you might possibly agree that a ride like Aladdin (again, this is not about Aladdin - insert Dumbo if you like, insert any kiddie ride) might be capable of eliciting an emotional response from a child. In their young minds they can ride the movie, live the adventure, etc., etc. Granted, as we agreed above, in our eyes Disney blew it with Aladdin and it is all wrong. However, kids don’t see it that way. They love the colors. They love the camel. They love the 30 year old technology. They love the jewels in the pavement. It is unique as it represents a movie they love and identify solely with Disney. They love everything about it, and it is a uniquely Disney experience for them. Who cares that it might even be simple stuff, a lousy spinner, as sometimes the simple pleasures are the best one’s for little kids. They share this experience with their family, and it becomes a lasting memory. Pretty strong stuff for a kid. Pretty strong stuff for anyone really. All this has nothing to do with whether you or I like the ride. Can you grasp that?

Of the young kids I personally know that have ridden I can tell you this is how they feel. Their outward symptoms of all of those feelings are excitement, happiness, a smile. Of all the young kids I don’t personally know that have ridden, all I can see is the excitement, the happiness, and the smile. Rest assured, that for most of them, all of those other feelings are there. So like it or not, when judging something like Aladdin and how it affects kids, ecitement and a smile, while not the only one, is a darn good indicator. Add in a unique Disney element and it not only affects the kids, but makes it a Disney experience for them.

Then you come along and say, ‘eh….kids can become emotionally attached to a lot of things, they could be just as entertained by a box’ and ‘no, no, no – that is most definitely NOT DISNEY!!!!’ Is that not the equivalent of saying that these simple little people just don’t get it, that they can’t discern between a real Disney experience, and a cheap imitation for a real Disney experience? Go tell that to a kid and see if it doesn’t devalue their experience. Just because Disney blew it with the ride in our eyes means that their emotional reaction and attachment, their feelings about the ride, don’t count, that they are any less valid than ours in gauging what is or is not Disney? That is insane. No, Disney hit the mark in eliciting the reaction they do in kids with this ride. Maybe you don’t like the ride, but Disney hit the mark – and the simplest way to gauge that is by seeing how much the kids are affected by the ride. That was my point. So you say you are just insulting my ridiculous notion that if it makes someone smile (I actually said excite – which implies more than simple smile) it must be ‘Disney’. You know darn well that there was more to my comment than that. If you don’t I have been wasting my time talking to you.

So, how do Walt and the parks fit into this? Well, you say that you weren’t making a comment regarding kids, or any particular ride – just my ridiculous notion about excitement and enjoyment. Well, if you bothered to take the time to understand what was behind the excitement and enjoyment you would agree that Dumbo and Aladdin accomplish an awful lot for kids – the intended audience. Yet, to you, the emotional response these rides bring about in kids doesn’t mean much as ‘kid’s can become emotionally attached to a lot of things’ and you obviously believe they are unable to see Aladdin for the failure that it is. Well, I doubt Walt ever felt that way, even when Dumbo was placed in Disneyland. So, if Aladdin can be equated to a cardboard box, then so can Dumbo – heck, so can most of the kiddie rides in either of the parks, all those kiddie rides that Walt approved of. If Aladdin is a cardboard box, then both parks are full of them.

Sorry for the rant. From this point on you will no longer hear a comment from me regarding Aladdin or the moderate resorts. I mean it this time, really .

 

[montessori]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds


Sorry for the rant. From this point on you will no longer hear a comment from me regarding Aladdin or the moderate resorts. I mean it this time, really .

Easier said than done, I know that!

I'm trying to think of something else that could make a good debate, but I'm drawing a blank.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Originally posted by montessori

Easier said than done, I know that!

I'm trying to think of something else that could make a good debate, but I'm drawing a blank.

But I've said it soooo many times. It may be the hardest thing - but my lips are zipped, I can not be sucked in or called out again (unless it happens to be a completely unrelated angle to anything we have already discussed ). [dont'cha just luv them qualifiers ]

I have an idea for a thread......................but it is sure to cause some troub.... I mean heated debate. Look for it on a Rumors and News board near you soon .

 

[WEDWAY100]

OK, so everyone including me has beaten the Aladdin thing to death. The topic is still “When does the Disney experience cease to exist?”

As a new ride along member of car 3, I’d like to point out some other things that make me question the Disney experience. I had some free time Sunday, so I went to the MK for a few hours. This was the first time I was there in several months – I usually go much more frequently. There were two things that jumped out at me.

1. Closed attractions. I have never seen so many closed attractions in my life as a Disney obsessor. I’m not talking about closed for re-hab. Just plain closed. In TL, the temporary theater close to the old skyway station had a sign that said, “No performances today”. The TL theater next to Buzz was also dark. CoP was closed, Timekeeper was closed, and of course the skyway was closed. For me, it was just sad. It looked to me like the carnival had been there and just left town.

The experience reminded me of a story I read about Walt when he was at DL one day and noticed that there was only one monorail running. He asked a park manager why and was told that there weren’t enough people in the park that day to support more than one. Walt was quoted as saying something to the effect that the guests paid full price to get in and they were going to get the full show. He ordered the other monorails into service. Under current management practices, that type of experience for guests has ceased to exist. I guess if you pay full price now, and not enough other people do, too bad - you don’t get the full show.

2. Does there have to be a gift shop at the exit of every attraction? I took a ride on Pirates, and as I was riding up the speed ramp to the exit, I heard a son ask his father for a souvenir. The father said (with some negative tones) that there would probably be gift shop we would have to walk through at the exit. When we got to the top of the ramp, he said, “See, I told you so”. This was a man who may have never ridden Pirates before. At least he didn’t know about the gift shop, but he was so conditioned to Disney trying to get money out of his pocket that he made a negative (and an accurate) assumption. For this man, part of his memories of WDW will be having to wade through yet another gift shop at the end of every ride.

This also made me take a harder look at the Pirates entrance and exit area. They closed the gift shop that was a real shop, and put everything in the exit area so that you have to dodge all of the crap as you exit. The space is so full of stuff that it’s not enjoyable to me, and I just want to get out of that area whenever I am there. I know that the theme is an open air Caribbean market, but there is just too much stuff in there. Also, the fountains are still dry – originally turned off for the drought, I guess they’ve just decided that it’s not worth running the two fountains.

For me, all this adds up to a bad (OK – a not as good) show, and my definition of the Disney Experience is ceasing to exist.

 

[montessori]

I don't know what car I'm in but I am trying to stay away from car #3! I do get discouraged by some things at DW, but I always have SO MUCH FUN there!

I'm feeling down right now because I think (actually I KNOW) that I should cancel our next Disney weekend. Financially, it's just not a good move at this time but I want to go to the Food and Wine Festival.

I was thinking about something that bugs me at The Yacht and Beach Clubs, kind of goes along with what WedWay was saying. The restaurant (Ariel's?) has been closed for so long, and aren't there 2 lounges closed? I know there is one, and it seems like they've been closed since pre 9/11.
It just doesn't feel right.
I miss a lot of things about the old Disney World...yet I want to go to the new Disney World for the Food and Wine Festival... and I feel like crying!

 

[raidermatt]

DK, repeating the same thing using more and more words doesn't change the fact that you are completely missing the big picture.

I'm not going to draw it again for you, so I will bow out of the Aladdin portion of this discussion. (I know, dry those tears... )

 

[DisneyKidds]

Matt - I have one of those Picture-in-Picture DIS Board televisions. Perhaps the window for the second picture is too small for you to see, but it is there .

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Matt - I have one of those Picture-in-Picture DIS Board televisions. Perhaps the window for the second picture is too small for you to see, but it is there

With all these people on this board, and all the participants on this thread, why is it that you are the only one that can see it? Hmmm.......

Hey Mr. Kidds! Ever see the movie, "A Beautiful Mind"?

And with that I say adieu to the Aladdin thread!! I’m sure the topic will come up again, as most people point to it as an example of a good idea gone terribly wrong!!

 

[Captain Crook]

Well, I certainly see that window Mr. Kidds & now that two of the 'evil bunch' have left this thread I'll jump back in.

I just got back from WDW and visited with a bunch of nieces and nephews (from 8-13) & their parents who had never been to WDW before (17 of us).

Well the kids had heard all about Aladdin and didn't give a hoot about Dumbo. We rode Aladdin and the excitement was heightend when Aladdin himself decided to take a couple of trips around! The kids had eyes as wide a saucers and smiles that would delight a dentist...{It was very, very sad that I had to tell them that Aladdin wasn't a good ride and couldn't be used to build magical Disney memories. They asked me why with disappointment in their voices and I said "well, it's because Disney already has a ride like this one...'Dumbo'...(blank stares) and because they built the ride in the middle of what used to be a pedestrian walkway (blank stares)"}...Well, they didn't really listen to me and went on their way thinking...Believing...Knowing that the Magic Carpets of Aladdin was one of the highlights of their trip.

To carry this a little further, we then rode JC and had a good Skipper and this ride was enjoyed by all. Then we rode POC. This was a runaway hit with the adults but a snoozefest for the younguns! Thy said "it's OK" or "kinda cool" and things like that. None of them asked to ride it again. The older kids thought the animatronics were lame. My point? Too often we wish to interprut what is best and acceptable for other people...Especially little ones. Aladdin hits the mark with them in a way that Dumbo no longer does...Why the huge lines at Dumbo, you ask? (A) it's in Fantasyland and (2) It's an adult classic...If more parents asked their kids which ride THEY'D prefer to do Dumbo or Aladdin, I think Aladdin wins hands down...

Also note that Tricertops Spin definately DID NOT hit the mark with our group (and they rode it before Aladdin). This points out that kids do have honest opinions and preferences, even if they can't articulate them which IMO debunks the 'give them a cardboard box' theory...

 

[DisneyKidds]

Glad to see you back Captain. The seas were a bit rough while you were away .

Why does your post sound so darn familiar? I say great minds ('those guys' will say crazy minds) think alike .

Oh, and guess what - 20 years from now that A ride (I can't say the word - I promised I wouldn't ) will have that long line of adults, specifically because of those wonderful Disney moments that were experienced by the younguns .

 

[SnackyStacky]

The kids snoozed on pirates because they have a higher standard of what they like. Because technology has advanced and Pirates is out of date. It sticks around because it's has nostalgia factor. BUT, have you seen any other rides like Pirates? No, because the technology has since moved on and an E ticket today is different from an E ticket of X years ago.

They definitely could have made Aladdin better. It still could have been an A-ticket with other. It's built and it's done, and that's fine, and of course there will be people who love it.

That doesn't necessarily mean that it's up to any kind of Disney standard.

 

[raidermatt]

...now that two of the 'evil bunch' have left this thread I'll jump back in.

Ah, the old "wait 'till the fight is over, then jump in throwing punches" strategy...

And from a CAPTAIN, too....



(By the way, my son loves PoC. Its why he wants to be a pirate for Halloween this year. However, I purposely don't use that as "proof", because of course, it "proves" nothing, other than HE loves PoC. Snacky does make a good point though... the fact that we are even drawing comparisons between a ride built 45 years ago and one built last year says volumes...)

 

[Captain Crook]

Hey! I thought you quit?

Listen, I agree with Snacky's point too, it is very on the mark (IMO)... but still, while 6 newbie kids (in my group) were no scientific study they know what they know. As I said it's all subjective but I went with group of six new kids and everyone of them like Aladdin better than POC & it's direct competition Dumbo & Tricertops Spin. That must account for some trendish rationalization, doesn't it?

 

[montessori]

Originally posted by WEDWAY100
OK, so everyone including me has beaten the Aladdin thing to death. The topic is still “When does the Disney experience cease to exist?”



Well, it was a good try!

 

[Captain Crook]

When you've been around here long enough you'll realize threads will die when they die & not a moment before!

Also, this isn't the debate board and not many of us really care about staying 'on topic'...That's the fun of it.

 

[raidermatt]

Hey! I thought you quit?

I quit discussing that NEW ride. I didn't say anything about Pirates...

As I said it's all subjective but I went with group of six new kids and everyone of them like Aladdin better than POC & it's direct competition Dumbo & Tricertops Spin. That must account for some trendish rationalization, doesn't it?

Sure it does. My point all along has just been that there's more to it than that. Ahhhh, but if you care about that, you have plenty of my material at your disposal in the first 200 pages of this thread...

When you've been around here long enough you'll realize threads will die when they die & not a moment before!

Also, this isn't the debate board and not many of us really care about staying 'on topic'...That's the fun of it.

Well said.

“When does the Disney experience cease to exist?”

Ok, a few comments, for whatever they're worth...

On a macro level, I don't feel the Disney experience has ceased to exist. Meaning that when I go to WDW or DL the experience is still a Disney one.

On a micro level, I feel that there are things that are detrimental to the experience. Wedway, you hit on one that seems to be a slowly increasing one, and that's the closure of attractions without a replacement being in the works.

It's just a bad show, and that used to be enough to keep it from happening. 20,000 Leagues, Skyway, Timekeeper, CoP, Keel Boats, and now Hunchback. Ugh.

Reduced hours and entertainment is also a big one with me.

Its really a problem with direction. For me, the Disney experience is such a wonderful thing that the negatives that have been popping up are still over-whelmed by the Magic.

But when I take a step back and look at the big picture, I realize that a continued negative philosophy will eventually take the Magic out of Disney even for me.

And for those who aren't quite the Disney fanatics that we are, and were already closer to the breaking point, the Magic will be gone for them much sooner. Maybe it already is gone for a large number of people, and maybe that number is large enough to be showing up in Disney's financial performance today...

 

[BRERALEX]

But when I take a step back and look at the big picture, I realize that a continued negative philosophy will eventually take the Magic out of Disney even for me.

to quote Metallica SAD BUT TRUE

And for those who aren't quite the Disney fanatics that we are, and were already closer to the breaking point, the Magic will be gone for them much sooner. Maybe it already is gone for a large number of people, and maybe that number is large enough to be showing up in Disney's financial performance today...

I keep tellin a friend who's only been there twice, to stay away from these boards. his opinions are still pure.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I’ve stayed away, but I like your logic, Sir Raider!! As long as nobody mentions the “A” word…

And for those who aren't quite the Disney fanatics that we are, and were already closer to the breaking point, the Magic will be gone for them much sooner.

I really look at it a little differently, Matt. What you say is true and I don’t want to minimize it. It is VERY important. But, we’ve already (even the fringe fans) become lifers. We may disappear for a bit or take a leave out of disgust for recent changes and boneheaded decisions by management, but just one GREAT “E” ticket or a perceptible change in management’s philosophy in some newspaper article and we’ll all come flocking back into the fold in a New York second!!

But what about those that will NEVER get the bug because of the ‘experience’ they are receiving today!?? Announce a big ticket ride, complete with money back guarantees and they’ll have no vested interest at all!! Fire Ei$ner and thaw out Walt and they skim the story thinking it was about cryogenics!! At best they’ll ignore it, and at worst (and what I think more likely) is they’ll think it’s over hyped, over priced and underwhelming, typical theme park stuff! A little better than Six Flags and on a par with Universal. Why? Because of the things going on today!! Because of Ei$ner’s business model!!

Sure we see the magic! We’re hardcore!! But did the Captain’s recent guests? (God! I love to mix up threads!!) What if the prices were not so ridiculously high? What if the WOW of certain additions would have been just a little bit more? What if the place stayed opened just an hour longer? What if they had just a bit more SHOW? Could that have made, what has become an ordinary theme park experience, a pure pixie-dust filled MAGICAL experience? Maybe!! It sure used to!! That’s the heart of the philosophy!!!

 

[BRERALEX]

AMEN

What if they were strollin around the magic kingdom at 1am tired to death but listening to the music comming out of the speakers in frontierland or adventureland and they could hear the wolf from HM howling. while they ate a dole whip or a turkey leg!!!!!!!!!
knowing they could do this all again tom. and see the fireworks again if they wanted to cause thats how it is here at MK EVERY NIGHT
nah at 10pm they were ushered out by the street cleaners!!!!

 

[raidermatt]

Yep, Lord Baron, you're right, I just hit on a piece of it. Just those who already go and are hooked (to some extent).

The Captain's newbies aren't hooked, and maybe if what you described had happened, some would be. I certainly considered this to be more significant than how they compared the individual attractions.

Breralex- You know, not only are those street cleaners annoying in person, they are quite irritating when the sound eminates from the tapes you recorded on your camcorder as well! Grrrrrr.....