DEBATE: When does the "Disney Experience" cease to exist?

[raidermatt]

Matt.... I hate to say this, but as many decent points as you make, you do yourself an injustice by making statements like this one.

I would say the same about you, but I'm still waiting for a decent point!




Ohana-

AK actually has a pretty high % of attractions with height requirements. It has three.

And the new "rumored" attraction that DK is putting stock in would be a 4th.

Dinorama targeted at kids???? It has TWO rides, and one has a 48" height requirement.

Its not that there is no validity to what you are saying...certainly Epcot is more of a "grown-up" park than MK. MGM seems to be heading in the "thrill" direction. But really, you are only proving my points. Disney is starting to move in the direction of "targeting" parks at different market segments. Its the same as developing individual attractions that target specific segments, only on a larger scale. They tried this with DCA, and it was a disaster.

Hold fast to what you know. May the force be with you always . The dark side is a powerful thing..............Resist the dark side

Who really represents the dark side? Those that point out the bad decisions that are hurting the parks, or those that defend those bad decisions? Hmmmm.....

Rebellions are always called evil by those who support the established leadership.

Its your choice. Be a stormtrooper, or join the Rebel Alliance...

 

[WEDWAY100]

Originally posted by ohanafamily
OK, time for me to get blasted by everyone.

MK is for all ages, but is targeted to family age groups with mostly younger kids. They need to keep adding rides for the young children here, because this is the park that they think of when they think of WDW.

ohanafamily,

I couldn’t disagree more. I agree with you that spinner rides are OK, if themed properly and fit into their environment properly, etc. I will also agree with you that Disney is targeting the MK to young kids. But I think that targeting that one demographic is a huge mistake. DL was always targeted to everyone. There were several things for the kids to enjoy, but there was also a lot for adults. Many adults may have taken their children to the MK or to DL with the idea that “this place is for kids”. But after a day’s visit, they used to come out saying, “Yeah, my kids had a great time but I did too. Have you seen the stuff they have in there? It’s really cool.”

Adding more kid rides without adult appeal will continue to erode that good feeling that adults had about the park. Instead of the last reaction, our adult friend will come away saying, “Yeah, it was OK. Mostly for kids though”.

Also, just to add more fuel to this discussion, I feel a need to go back to the original topic about the Disney experience ceasing to exist. That topic has made me think more about what I like about Disney, and specifically, what used to be there that has gone away. In an earlier post, I suggested that ride closings (with no replacements) were a sign that the Disney experience is dwindling. I now have another:

TRUST. I used to TRUST the Disney company. They never oversold anything to me, and I always felt that my expectations were met. In most cases, my expectations were surpassed. I could trust them to provide a very high level of entertainment. Now, I no longer trust them. They have proven to me that they are willing to implement cheap attractions. They have also proven to me that when they build a large budget attraction, the end product is not the “over-the-top” experience I expect. They announce a new E-ticket ride like M:S, and I don’t get excited. My gut tells me that we will have to wait and see, not that it will be great.

I also don’t trust them when they publish a reason for a change. Either tell me the truth, or say nothing if it is a cut, but don’t try to “sell” me that a cut is really a bonus somehow.

It will take them a long time before they gain the trust back from me. I guess I’ll just have to wait and see.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Adding more kid rides without adult appeal will continue to erode that good feeling that adults had about the park. Instead of the last reaction, our adult friend will come away saying, “Yeah, it was OK. Mostly for kids though”.

They added ONE, count it ONE, new ride for kids. Do you honestly believe that that will lead to the reaction you are citing. Come on now, let's get a grip.

Before anyone says the track record or pattern is there (you know who you are) remember that Philharmagic is due next. As for other more recent MK rides we have Buzz, which is a hit with all ages. Other ME additions include things like Splash Mountain, Extraterrorestial. Sure, there haven't been a lot of recent additions (and that is bad), and the most recent is a kiddie ride. However, to say that Disney is loading up the MK with kiddie rides to the detriment of the adult experience, because of that A word I will not say, is rediculous.

There were several things for the kids to enjoy, but there was also a lot for adults. Many adults may have taken their children to the MK or to DL with the idea that “this place is for kids”. But after a day’s visit, they used to come out saying, “Yeah, my kids had a great time but I did too. Have you seen the stuff they have in there? It’s really cool.”

This is just as true today as it was in 1971. If you weren't implying that it isn't I apologize for the rant .

 

[WEDWAY100]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
They added ONE, count it ONE, new ride for kids. Do you honestly believe that that will lead to the reaction you are citing. Come on now, let's get a grip.

Checking for my grip...yep, there it is.

The "A" ride, as we so fondly refer to it, is a symptom of a much larger problem. By itself, it does not make people change their attitudes about the MK. BUT...(I bet you knew there would be one)...it is one manifestation of a corporate strategy that will bring about those attitude changes.

I've written this part before, but I need to repeat it. Disney's strategy hinges around one catch word that can be applied to each park. This catch word will allow marketing, merchandising, imagineering, etc to approach each park from a consistent view. Here are the catch phrases they have chosen:

1. Magic Kingdom - Fantasy
2. Epcot - Discovery
3. MGM - Action
4. DAK - I forgot. (That's not the catch word, I really forgot).

I believe this list to be accurate. I am not an insider. I could tell you how I know this, but then I'd have to kill you.

From the list above, it makes sense as to why MGM is getting the thrill rides. But it creates a disturbing trend (at least for me) in the MK. I thought Fantasyland was about fantasy. The rest of the park was about real life stories, legends and adventures, framed within a Disney show. But this list shows that the entire MK is Fantasy (i.e. targeted at kids). They certainly added a kiddie ride with the "A" ride, but that's just the latest execution of this strategy. Another, admittedly more subtle example of this is Buzz Lightyear. This strategy is why Buzz seems to fit OK in TL. A cartoon character in a land that used to be dedicated to the real future. Tomorrowland had become very dated by 1994, when the overlay was completed. But in 1971, this was a glimpse into a possible version of the future. Rather than update TL to the future, (which was just way too hard) they gave it a fantasy overlay.

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
Before anyone says the track record or pattern is there (you know who you are) remember that Philharmagic is due next. As for other more recent MK rides we have Buzz, which is a hit with all ages. Other ME additions include things like Splash Mountain, Extraterrorestial. Sure, there haven't been a lot of recent additions (and that is bad), and the most recent is a kiddie ride. However, to say that Disney is loading up the MK with kiddie rides to the detriment of the adult experience, because of that A word I will not say, is rediculous.

This is just as true today as it was in 1971. If you weren't implying that it isn't I apologize for the rant .

No problem about the rant. I'm feeling a good one coming on too. OK, let's tackle the Philharmagic thing. There are two reasons I am skeptical about this attraction. First, as I said in my earlier post, I don't trust Disney to give me the best that they can. I do, however, trust them to give me the most cost effective version that they can. If I really felt like we would be getting something new and innovative, I would feel better about it. But they have proven to me lately that they are willing to take the cheap way out. So we will have to wait and see how it turns out. Based on the recent track record, I'm not ready to proclaim it a good attraction just yet. Second, it is another movie. I was much more impressed with Muppets than with Honey ISTA and ITTBABug. The latter two were just more of the same, IMO. So again, we will have to wait.

I am inferring from your last statement that you think adults are just as in awe of the MK today as they were in 1971. If that is your point, then we are way apart on this thing. I think that adults were way more impressed with Pirates and HM in 1973 than they are today. That is because technology and competition has caught up with these 30 year old attractions. But Disney has not improved on that experience, or added attractions to the MK that are significantly better, even though technology has improved. They have just let the competition catch up.

 

[Peter Pirate]

Two points. First your subjective comments that are germain to this discussion, namely your impression that Muppets were the best 3-D & HISTA & ITTBAB were just more of the same. I disagree wholeheartedly. While I think Muppets was great (and still like it today), HISTA taks it to a new level & then ITTBAB goes further. Our family is giddy about the prospects of the next generation offering.

Your very last paragraph is interesting, and I believe, very accurate to a point. I concur that things are different today, people are less easily wowed today and the Disney Company hasn't kept up the pace...But I don't believe that capability within this realm is necessarily possible. Through Walts years right through Eisner's tenure there have been lots of advancements but they are less and less eye opening. The Dark Rides were phenomenal in their time and today we have Indy and Spidey (at US) at the top of the technological (as eye popping as it gets) heap....But, Indy & Spidey while great, great, great will never be perceived as nearly as revolutionary as POC or HM because they are still, no matter how spectacular, no matter how new the technology, only variations on the dark ride theme which was given to us many, many moons ago.

Now many will chastize me for implying that I believe no more true innovationis possible...And thats silly...But, innovation also isn't predictable or timely (i.e just because we want it or need it doesn't mean it can be accomplished right now - No matter how much imagination talent is used, true innovation will only happen under the right circumstances, when it is ready to happen).

So, while you (a generic you) may think the Parks are simply stagnating what is the alternative? Obviously the choices are thrills like IOA or current technology with unbridled theming like Disney Sea. The problem is that neither are truly innovative either and neither would push the theme park business to bold new heights (like Walt once did). Oh sure TDS would be impressive and seriously loved but would it, could it convert millions of new theme park fans that don't currently exist? Nah. It'd just canniblize from the existing...Which really just brings us back to 'what's the proper business model?', right?

Well, I forgot my point so you guys can just read and chuclkle. Respond to what's coherent if you chose. Good night.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Well, I forgot my point so you guys can just read and chuclkle. Respond to what's coherent if you chose. Good night.

Funny you should say this at the end, oh Pirate, my Pirate (or is that Captain ). As I was reading (without chuckles) I thought to myself that you were sounding a lot like the Baron this evening. You know, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.*

Mr. WED. Your points are fair enough. MK perhaps deviating from a perceived model. Current management giving perhaps a little less than they are capable of and doing things on the cheap lately. The knock-their-socks-off factor not quite what it was 30 years ago. We could discuss the nuances of these positions, but they all have some 'truth' (what is truth again?) to them. The good Pirate gave you some food for thought and I won't repeat what he said.

However..................(yes, you knew I'd have one of those too) all that has nothing to do with kiddie vs. adult rides. So let me clarify. If you want to say that adults don't feel the same as they did in 1971 because of those reasons mentioned above - fine, we can debate that. However, adult perception of the MK is not being erroded by the installation of a plethora of kiddie rides that would tend to make the MK appeal even more to kids than adults today than it did in '71. Make sense? I'm sure you disagree with the position, but do you at least see what I'm saying. I've been having a hard time even agreeing with people on what it is we are talking about, much less agreeing with them once we agree on the topic . As for Philharmagic, I have no preconceived notion that it will be good, bad, or indifferent. That really doesn't matter in the context of what I was talking about. Either way, it appears that it will be a ride to appeal to all ages.

* Literary quote alert. Anyone want to place it?

 

[ohanafamily]

WEDWAY100,
I did not say that MK was just for kids, I said that it was for families, some with young kids. When you ride the "A" ride, notice the wonder in the childrens faces, and notice how happy the rest of the family is to be together. It is just one ride, and the foliage that they put around it does a good bit to mask it's color scheme. While during peak park periods, it may restrict access a little, all in all I have switchede to the liking it camp. Also, wasn't the story of Aladdin one of those adventure tales before the animated movie came out? It can fit, so they put it there.

As far as the Philharmagic goes, I will wait and see too. I was disappointed at the loss of the Lion King; I really enjoyed it!!!

raidermatt,
High percentage of Height requirements? OK, Maybe, but the point is that most of what is there has an appeal to youngsters of all ages.

As far as DCA goes, haven't been there yet. but......I can use this word too... it usually takes several years for the parks to settle in and have all of the rides and attrations added and tweaked before I want to sign the Death Certificate. Look at DLParis...from the ashes of Eurodisney....Maybe Rusolo has some of the magic at that? (pardon me, I have to wipe my glasses)

all we can do is have Faith and Trust with a little bit of Pixie Dust......

 

[DisneyKidds]

When you ride the "A" ride

I love it!!! Now none of us will say the word . heheheheh........

 

[ohanafamily]

1 more thing, while we were at WDW I saw a t-shirt...

"Walt Disney World-Been There, Done That, Going Back"

Do you think we can put it on car 1?

 

[FantasticDisFamily]

Well I've been up to my eyeballs but couldn't resist popping back in here for a moment.

Ohana family - I actually have that saying on a bumper sticker pinned to my office wall. It helps keep me sane knowing there is life outside of my campus office! So guess we could put that on car #1!

Disneykidds - let's see, "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." I know that is Shakespeare, I THINK MacBeth, but if not M, then Hamlet....

The Professor

 

[Peter Pirate]

...full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Gee Mr. Kidds I thought I voiced my points quite well...Maybe totally out of context and scope, but who stands on circumstance among the wretched dregs?

 

[DisneyKidds]

Disneykidds - let's see, "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." I know that is Shakespeare, I THINK MacBeth

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.............'Tis better to suffer the slings and arrows.................' - who am I kidding, I can't remember the whole thing. At least I remembered something from 12th grade English class . (I am pretty sure it was MacBeth as well).

Gee Mr. Kidds I thought I voiced my points quite well...Maybe totally out of context and scope, but who stands on circumstance among the wretched dregs?

Sorry Peter. Perhaps in your case I should have changed it to 'full of sound and fury, going nowhere' . It is that Baron fellow who goes on for pages without saying anything .

 

[Sarangel]

'Tis better to suffer the slings and arrows.................'

Sorry DisneyKidds, this quote is from Hamlet, the famous "To be, or not to be..." speach. I'm less sure of the 'sound & fury' quote, but I believe that one belongs to the Scottish play.

Sarangel

 

[DisneyKidds]

Originally posted by Sarangel
Sorry DisneyKidds, this quote is from Hamlet, the famous "To be, or not to be..." speach. I'm less sure of the 'sound & fury' quote, but I believe that one belongs to the Scottish play.

Sarangel

Now that you mention it.................See, I can't keep 'em straight. So, all I really remember from 12th grade English is that they are both from Shakespeare . I also think it goes......'Whether 'tis nobler to suffer..............'

Great, now I have to look up both of those quotes. As if I have the spare time to do that . At least I didn't pull a Streisand and attribute to the wrong person...............

 

[raidermatt]

"Walt Disney World-Been There, Done That, Going Back"

Do you think we can put it on car 1?

Sure you can.

And it goes just as well on car #3.

That's a point that seems to get lost in the shuffle sometimes...

 

[WEDWAY100]

To Mr. Kidds, ohanafamily and the Pirate: I apoplogize for taking so long to resopnd. There's never enough time in the day.

Originally posted by Peter Pirate
Two points. First your subjective comments that are germain to this discussion, namely your impression that Muppets were the best 3-D & HISTA & ITTBAB were just more of the same. I disagree wholeheartedly. While I think Muppets was great (and still like it today), HISTA taks it to a new level & then ITTBAB goes further. Our family is giddy about the prospects of the next generation offering.

On this part we must agree to disagree. I do like HISTA and think it is well written and a good show. But for me, it is not a new level of entertainment from Muppets. It has a few new additions to the 3-D movie format. But I think that Terminator 2 - 3D at Uni pushed the envelope for 3D much further than HISTA. Finally, ITTBAB just doesn't do anything for me. For me it feels rushed, the writing is not great - it's just not their best work. There are some great effects, but certainly nothing that pushes my definition of a new level.

Originally posted by Peter Pirate
So, while you (a generic you) may think the Parks are simply stagnating what is the alternative? Obviously the choices are thrills like IOA or current technology with unbridled theming like Disney Sea.

I must disagree again. I guess I'm just in a car 3 disagreeable mood.

What choices do they have? I would think they are practically infinite. What about all that talk in the Imagineering book about how exciting a blank piece of paper is? If it's so exciting, why do they keep painting the same old tired pictures over and over? Forget theme parks for a minute. Today's version of a theme park didn't really exist until Walt invented it (or at least put together ideas from other places like Tivoli Gardens and Greenfield Village). So if we can agree that he at least created something new, then why can't all those minds at Disney come up with something newer than the traditional theme park? All they've done is take a model that Walt and his team created, and they've done it over and over. They have 43 square miles in FL to play with. There's still a lot left. Take a risk. Go out and create some kind of spectacular entertainment that everyone will throw money at them to experience. (Eisner will like that last part)

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
However, adult perception of the MK is not being erroded by the installation of a plethora of kiddie rides that would tend to make the MK appeal even more to kids than adults today than it did in '71. Make sense?

Hello Mr. Kidds. This sentence makes sense to me exactly as it is. But if you remove two words, I disagree. The words are "plethora of". You have made me refine my thoughts a little more. I was confusing my concerns with Aladdin (Uh oh, I typed it) and my concerns with the overall strategy. But I do think adding that one specific kiddie ride (as it was done) does erode that feeling somewhat, even if the erosion is only slight. I know I can't possibly prove this slight erosion - it's just my gut feeling.

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
As for Philharmagic, I have no preconceived notion that it will be good, bad, or indifferent. That really doesn't matter in the context of what I was talking about.

I agree that we can't have a preconceived notion about it. And this is the first car 3 statement I have read from you. How sad that we can't expect a great attraction from Disney anymore. We can hope, but we can't expect it. And although it might not matter within the context of your writings, it does matter within the context of this topic, because that by itself is an erosion of the Disney experience.

ohanafamily, I read your post and am glad you enjoy the rides. At this point, you are ready to be a little more forgiving than I am. Sometimes I think that is because I go too often and am too familiar with the parks, but then I realize that Disney really is creating less, and it frustrates me.

 

[ohanafamily]

We can talk all we want about how the Disney experience/parks/empire is "eroding", but at the end of the day, when we all "Go Back" we still have a great time. I cannot help that I will enjoy the parks even when bad things are hapening to the empire. I get frustrated with things like the Disney Club going away (Even if I take it as a semi-personal affront to my love for the parks showing that they don't care about me). I am also upset about them removing the Gallery items from my local Disney store. I see them closing departments like the Magical Engagements Department...They helped me propose to my wife; where is the future magic in that?

A few new rides are great, I can see them wanting to get more teenagers into the park, so that is why they seem to be adding more thrill rides. I can also see them wanting to balance it with a few more kiddie rides. I do agree thet more "Whole Family" rides would be nice, and share your desire (WEDWAY100) for better, more imaginative rides.

As for me, my greatest concern was to ride the new JIYI (AKA Figment Ride). Restating my feelings, The original is almost impossible to top. JIYA2 was Not Fun, and was actually quite distressing to me that they thought that they could make a ride that bad. We actually had to ride it twice to make sure we weren't missing something. JIYA3 is actually a good ride (if you can resist the temptation to compare it to the original) DW and I rode it 4-5 times and liked it more each time. You must keep in mind that they probably had a huge contract with Eric Idle and needed to keep his presence that strong (can anyone say Ellen and Energy?) That is why the original could not come back. They have made a few bad decisions when signing long term contracts for people in rides. I liked the Dreamfinder...

When will Disney cease to be magical for me? when the parks aren't Fun anymore... But I still do rant about things that effect me.

< EOR > (end of rant)