DEBATE: When does the "Disney Experience" cease to exist?

[DVC-Landbaron]

The Captain's newbies aren't hooked, and maybe if what you described had happened, some would be. I certainly considered this to be more significant than how they compared the individual attractions.

I agree! It is certainly more significant. It is also IMPOSSIBLE to measure. Just as it is impossible for Disney to realize that their ridiculously high prices have kept my sister-in-law away for seven years (possibly 8) instead of the usual four of five years. But it’s a fact!!

 

[ohanafamily]

Hey, we are at the Poly, and went to MGM Yesterday. you could see the insides of the buildings on NY street. This is "Anti-Magic" Walt had a strfict rule about never showing any maintenance. We also say lots of scaffolding around the world (showcase at Epcot) today. We didn't really notice ride closings, but we weren't trying to hit every attraction. I also got annoyed in Norway because we had to wait for the movie to end in order to pass through the theater and leave the ride.

I am also still disappointed in some of the pavillions removed from the "after-Ride" in space ship earth. I really enjoyed the scateboard trip through the communications line. Journey into Imagination is much better than it was. Had I not been so fond of the original, I would have said it was fantastic.

I also found out that after 9/11 there were a good many lay-offs that went straght to US. This may explain why their themeing is improving while WDW appears to not be.

Comparison: AK River Ride and IOA Popey River ride (I am on a small laptop and don't have all of my resources or spell checkers online, so please pardon the not exact names) Popey ride was at least twice aslong, had a very appropriate theme, and really cooled you down. The ride at AK is just too short. The line used to be really long for the ride, but some poeple said they had ridden the AK ride on Monday and they rode it 3 times straight.

MK tomorrow, Will look for closed rides.

 

[FantasticDisFamily]

Hey Ohanafamily -

Glad you're having fun. AArrgh! Brother & sister-in-law are US people (employees - married on site in CA) and I really hate hearing that US theming is improving. Oh well - one more topic of conversation during the Christmas visit!

But to more delightful things - can you share any specific changes on Journey into the Imagination? Is Figment REALLY back with a greater presence than before? Last time I was at WDW (June '01) I was a little disappointed but heard the "new" version was going to be great!

The Professor

 

[space42]

But to more delightful things - can you share any specific changes on Journey into the Imagination? Is Figment REALLY back with a greater presence than before? Last time I was at WDW (June '01) I was a little disappointed but heard the "new" version was going to be great!

I saw the new JII back in September. As far as how good it is depends on your frame of reference. Compared to version #2 it is wonderful! However, compared to version #1 it is under whelming.

 

[montessori]

We didn't like the new Journey into Imagination.
I can hardly remember it, it was so unimpressive. When we walked out, we just looked at each other and kind of shrugged.
But, that's just us, many people love it!

Glad you are having some fun, Ohanafamily. Will you be going to Epcot for the Food and Wine Festival?

 

[Planogirl]

Originally posted by Captain Crook
Well, I certainly see that window Mr. Kidds & now that two of the 'evil bunch' have left this thread I'll jump back in.

I just got back from WDW and visited with a bunch of nieces and nephews (from 8-13) & their parents who had never been to WDW before (17 of us).

Well the kids had heard all about Aladdin and didn't give a hoot about Dumbo. We rode Aladdin and the excitement was heightend when Aladdin himself decided to take a couple of trips around! The kids had eyes as wide a saucers and smiles that would delight a dentist...{It was very, very sad that I had to tell them that Aladdin wasn't a good ride and couldn't be used to build magical Disney memories. They asked me why with disappointment in their voices and I said "well, it's because Disney already has a ride like this one...'Dumbo'...(blank stares) and because they built the ride in the middle of what used to be a pedestrian walkway (blank stares)"}...Well, they didn't really listen to me and went on their way thinking...Believing...Knowing that the Magic Carpets of Aladdin was one of the highlights of their trip.

To carry this a little further, we then rode JC and had a good Skipper and this ride was enjoyed by all. Then we rode POC. This was a runaway hit with the adults but a snoozefest for the younguns! Thy said "it's OK" or "kinda cool" and things like that. None of them asked to ride it again. The older kids thought the animatronics were lame. My point? Too often we wish to interprut what is best and acceptable for other people...Especially little ones. Aladdin hits the mark with them in a way that Dumbo no longer does...Why the huge lines at Dumbo, you ask? (A) it's in Fantasyland and (2) It's an adult classic...If more parents asked their kids which ride THEY'D prefer to do Dumbo or Aladdin, I think Aladdin wins hands down...

Also note that Tricertops Spin definately DID NOT hit the mark with our group (and they rode it before Aladdin). This points out that kids do have honest opinions and preferences, even if they can't articulate them which IMO debunks the 'give them a cardboard box' theory...

I'm commenting on this late but these are interesting observations. I see that the kids' excitement while riding Aladdin was heightened by Aladdin himself joining in. I wonder if the kids would have enjoyed POC more if a "true" pirate had ridden with your group?

I can personally only take a sample of one 8 year old but we rode Pirates over and over again by his request and bypassed Aladdin also by his request. But that aside, wasn't the original point of Disneyland to be a place where kids OF ALL AGES can enjoy things together? How does Aladdin fit into that philosophy?

I see nothing wrong with some spinners but they don't need to be in the middle of the walkway and they can be themed nicely. Just my subjective opinion.

 

[ohanafamily]

My initial thoughts about "JIII" were that it is a vast improvement over JII. I also liked JI better. Once I realized that I had to judge JIII on it's own merits I felt much better about it. I realized that EI probably had a huge contract with Disney, and was required to have the corresponding presence. HE LOOKS MUCH OLDER IN JIII than in JII. Basically, they trashed the dreamfinder concept, and kept the Institute concept. They left the track as it was for JII, and a few elements. The entire set was redone so that Figment is still the main character of the ride. He actually takes over the "Tour" and irritates the irritating Prof. All in all, I like the new ride a lot, add that in with the realization of the contractal obligations that probably exist PURE SUPPOSITION, I think the ride is done very well. Mind you, I am still here so that I am actually running in front of car 1.

As far as Aladdin goes, There is a lot of greenery around it that wasn't there last April when we were here. I no longer find it an eye sore. As far as it being just like Dumbo with carpets in stead of elephants... So what we rode it, and the point that it can be a fun ride for me and kids are true. The forrestry does a lot to conceal it's obnoxious color scheme. I actually think I like it now... I was mostly offendedby the eysoredness of it.
Mind you, I am still here so that I am actually running in front of car 1.

As far as closed attractions, the Crystal palace is being renovated...in daylight. Lion King is being replaced by a Mickey Philharmonic something-or-other. Carossel of progress is not open...it is now seasonal. A lot of carts were closed, but it is low season.

The room at the Poly is much nicer than that in RP, but RP is Value and Poly is ****.

Also, New person in charge of MK came from AK, and likes characters in the park. they are everywhere...I think this is good, and closer to the ads.

Complaints The Monorail still smells funny. I found out that is is carpet glue from when they redid the carpets a few years ago. they used a bad glue and it does not seem a priority to fix.

Resort delivery does not go to the rooms any more. I could understand this at a DVC resort, but not at a **** resort.

One last thing, Wrong thread, but of interest nonetheless...I found out that the only park being worked on is Hong Kong. There are plans that are top secret, but will not get started until HK is done (in about 8 months)

hope this report helps.....

 

[grinningghost]

I think planogirl hit the nail on the head. Walt Disney's original concept was based on the idea that families should be able to enjoy an amusement park together. If all Disney has up it's sleeve anymore are multi-colored carnival rides, then yes, the Disney experience is ceasing to exist. Something like POC or HM are so unique, and they were designed years and years ago. Is it possible that all the truly creative, imaginative imagineers have gone to the great beyond???

 

[DisneyKidds]

If all Disney has up it's sleeve anymore are multi-colored carnival rides, then yes, the Disney experience is ceasing to exist.

A couple of things. First, where is the proof that this is the case? Some people are way too 'what have you done for me lately'. Mickey's Phiharmagic and Mission:Space are under construction. There are rumors of Spain pavillions and other things. So what that the last few rides were 'carny' rides. I know - philosophy blah, blah, blah.............. (not getting on you ghost, but I know what I'll hear from others )

Secondly, regarding families enjoying things together, tell me how Test Track (just picking the last major ride added - but I could say ToT, RnR, etc. - even M:S) accomplishes this goal any better than Aladdin or the Dino-Rama stuff. Themeing issues aside, it is called balance.

 

[raidermatt]

Secondly, regarding families enjoying things together, tell me how Test Track (just picking the last major ride added - but I could say ToT, RnR, etc. - even M:S) accomplishes this goal any better than Aladdin or the Dino-Rama stuff.

They don't.

I suppose you could say that the rides you named only elminate the youngest guests, while rides that appeal to only kiddies leave out more people, say anyone over 10.

But the short answer is still, "They don't".

Disney balance isn't supposed to be about adding things at opposite ends, so that one appeals to the little ones, and the other appeals to the thrill seekers. Sure, there are some examples of this in the past, but the emphasis was always on "entire family" attractions, with a few at opposite ends thrown in.

Now, the middle is being all but ignored, while the extremes are being loaded up.

 

[Peter Pirate]

Regarding Walt's 'families having fun together' concept. It is true that is what he said (and I assume meant). But also remember that back then (or at least in Walt's case) some of the fun the adults (Walt) enjoyed was sitting on a bench in a clean, friendly, happy environment watching his kids do things. Sometimes things "Walt said" are taken too literally and out of present day context...

 

[raidermatt]

Hello, and welcome back Mr. Pirate...

I could buy what you said, except that the example of what Walt didn't want was EXACTLY what you just described. He specifically said he wanted a place where parents could participate with the children and not just sit and watch them have fun. In this case, he was pretty clear.

Its not that I disagree with your general comment that sometimes his words are used out of context, I'm just not sure this is really a good example.

 

[Planogirl]

Originally posted by raidermatt
Now, the middle is being all but ignored, while the extremes are being loaded up.

I wish that I'd said that.

As much as I like the RocknRoller Coaster, it misses that philosophy that I THOUGHT was so important to Walt Disney by a mile. It's fun and well-made but it leaves out little kids and those not so happy to fly through the air upside down.

Has anyone who isn't a coaster fan gone to Six Flags lately? I really noticed during our last trip how little there was to do for a person who didn't care for roller coasters. The problem with Six Flags isn't just a lack of theming IMO but also that they cater too much to one type of park fan. Maybe Disney is still trying to cater to everyone but with different rides? And maybe the park is turning into a "hurry up and wait" type of experience? Who really wants that?

 

[Peter Pirate]

Are you sure about that Matt? I'm positive the adult mindset was different then. I don't believe Walt had any big desire to ride horses on a carousel with his daughters...I think he wanted the whole enchalada ,so to speak...And sitting on the bench watching the kids part of the time was enjoyable to him (as it is to me with my daughters)...I'll try to find my sources...

 

[raidermatt]

I'll check too, though it probably won't be for a day or two...

You're right in that I don't think he meant EVERY attraction had to be equally enjoyable for all ages.

I just mean that was the general focus, and the newer Disney attractions are straying from that focus. ToT, TT, RnRC and M:S all have height requirements. Of the three attractions added in the last year, 2 are obviously directed at young children, and the other has a significant height requirement (PW). Where's the middle ground? Where is the "new" Pirates, Haunted Mansion, or Spaceship Earth?

Even the Fantasyland rides were not "kiddie appeal" only. Yes, there was the carousel, but that was the exception, not the rule.

For the most part, now we are only getting shows or 3D movies that can even qualify as the middle ground. The only recent exception that really comes to mind is Kilamanjaro Safaris, and, SURPRISE, its one of the most popular attractions in AK, despite being tucked into the back of the park.

If we need a snapshot of this new philosophy, all we have to do is look at DCA. The majority of the attractions either have a height requirement (Screamin', Soarin', Mulholland, Maliboomer, Orange stinger, Grizzley), or are "kiddie rides" (carousel). Of the original attractions, what really had a chance to appeal to all ages? Superstar Limo (which had significant other problems), Muppets, Animation, Step in Time, Sun Wheel, Golden Dreams (?)... All shows/movies except for Limo and a ferris wheel.

This idea of providing more things at each end of the appeal spectrum, rather than more of what hits both is just a part of the overall problem, but its a significant part.

 

[space42]

Where's the middle ground? Where is the "new" Pirates, Haunted Mansion, or Spaceship Earth?

I couldn't agree more. I've been saying this for years.. where's the new family style E-Tickets?

What is interesting is up until 1975, when Space Mountain opened, none of the MK E-Tickets had height requirements. Pirates, Jungle Cruise, Haunted Mansion, 20k Leagues.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Even the Fantasyland rides were not "kiddie appeal" only. Yes, there was the carousel, but that was the exception, not the rule.

Matt.... I hate to say this, but as many decent points as you make, you do yourself an injustice by making statements like this one. Dumbo was certainly a 'kiddie only'. Moving outside of Fantasyland we have the Star Jets in Tomorrowland (although this didn't open until 1974 - but I think it counts as 'original'). You can say that I'm nitpicking, but the carousel as the only 'kiddie only' anomoly is and idea that truely belongs in fantasyland.

I agree with the tendancy over the past 15 years for Disney to produce more rides on either end of the spectrum and few 'tweeners - but it doesn't mean we haven't had any. Hopefully Philharmagic will change that trend.

 

[montessori]

What will "Philharmagic" be like? I haven't a clue.
Thanks!

 

[ohanafamily]

OK, time for me to get blasted by everyone.

I agree about the no middle ground rides, but simple spinners (AKA Dumbo and the A Ride) are a ride that the whole family can ride. There are no height requirements, and while they may be simplistic with not much substance, they are not kids-only like you would find in Mickey’s Toon Town Fair. We are also mixing up four theme parks. MK is for all ages, but is targeted to family age groups with mostly younger kids. They need to keep adding rides for the young children here, because this is the park that they think of when they think of WDW. Next AK, you have the animals, the shows, the Dinosaur rides. Again, while the advertising says it’s “NOTAZOO” the theme is for young kids and animal lovers. Notice that there are very few height requirements. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy AK, but it is targeted at a younger audience. That is why Dynorama is ok there. They needed some more rides that will appeal to the primary audience. Say what you will about specific attractions there, but this is a park where the whole family can be together. MGM is not designed to specifically cater to the youngest children. The only things for the very young are a few shows, and maybe the great movie ride. But the audience of the park is a little older. You can argue the point, but even taking away ToT and RnR most of what is there is about movies. Most of the youngest crowd hasn’t seen the classics. Indeed, ToT and RnR may have been attempts to get some of the teenagers away from US-IOA. Finally Epcott World Showcase, Young kids? But to be fair, Tomorrowland has the living seas, and lots of pavilions for little kids. There is a lot for the very young there. What was missing, and what they are trying to correct with TT and M:S is the teenage appeal. In conclusion I think that the new thrill rides are because IOA is nipping at their heels in the teenage category. All of the parks have some appeal to most age groups, but have some specific targets. The various age groups of these targets must have a representation of rides that will appeal to them, otherwise 3 year old Elizabeth may have a great time, but 18 year old Spike will be bored silly.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Bravo, Ohana, bravo!!!

Now let's hope you are not like our good friend Baron. You see, he admits that he falls under the spell when he hits the World. He probably stays under it for a little bit after he returns to the real world. Then he lets his head full of negative thoughts get the best of him and voila - you know the opinions he espouses . Hold fast to what you know. May the force be with you always . The dark side is a powerful thing..............Resist the dark side .