Delta "Family Seating"

[taitai]

I also think there are some false presumptions going on in this thread:

When you "reserve" a seat on an airline, you are not GUARANTEED that seat. Even if you reserve the first row aisle seat to get off that airplane the fastest for a connecting flight, you have no right to that seat. The airlines make that very clear when you book your flight. You are not entitled compensation if they move you. You have no right to due process over the fact that the airlines move you. The seat does not belong to you whether you reserved it or not, it belongs to the airline and they can do what they want with it. What you are "guaranteed" is a seat on that flight, and even that is only a guarantee is quotation marks because they can overbook, and they can cancel flights, though are you are at least entitled compensation if they choose to overbook and boot you, or you otherwise are unable to board the plane because of the airline.

So, if an airline like Delta determines that they are going to bump someone else out of a seat so that my daughter with significant special needs is seated directly next to me, then I'm not being the rude, selfish, uncaring person who "robbed" "you" of your seat. I merely presented a problem *to the airline* and the airline resolved it as they saw fit to do so. They own the airline, they have the plane, they make the decision. I'm not "making" anyone do anything. Nor am I feeling entitled to something that belongs to "you" just because I have children. I have a logistical problem (a seating issue with my children). I approach the airline staff about my logistical problem. They solve it.

So,I really think it is inappropriate to discussing parents who do nothing but request customer service as if they running up and down airplane aisles "forcing" the rule abiding, seat reserving grown-ups out of seats they own. *Everyone* is following the rules here--- the parents who request seating help, those who reserve seats in advance, those who sit in the "family section", those who end up in the emergency exit rows and on and on.

Any one who has a serious problem with the rights, responsibilities and rules that govern seating on an airplane needs to take it up with the airline that they fly, not berate their fellow passengers as if they are doing something wrong.

:heart

While I don't disagree with your point about the fact that all your ticket gets you is A seat on the plane, it is a different kettle of fish when you are discussing the airlines that charge for advance seat selection. Delta is not one of them. However, for the Airtrans of the world that do, the person paying for the seat does have some ownership of the seat and the airline will not move that person.

 

[momtoejanda]

Minus the fact that I wouldnt put my two 5 yo's and 8 yo with other people. Who wants to sit with my upset, probably scared 5 yo for hours??? Are they going to take them to the bathroom too?

RIGHT! Exactly!


Ditto




If you are in the minority, I am right there with you - because I agree with absolutely EVERYTHING you said. It's not just a matter of convenience, but a matter of not disturbing others, protecting your children and taking care of them in a safe manner if something WERE to happen. I'm sorry that others do not see this. I do.

Thank you for agreeing with me. I was flamed for wanting to take my 5 yo's to the bathroom and it was assumed that I am overprotective or that my kids were incapable of doing things on their own.

but everyone complains that parents arent responsible for their children and dont discipline them. so for those who think 5 yo's should sit alone, go to the bathroom themselves, and order their own drinks...dont complain to me when they yell because they want to talk to me from 3 rows away, dont clean up after themselves in the bathroom or spill their drink on you 5 minutes into the flight.

 

[crashbb]

While I don't disagree with your point about the fact that all your ticket gets you is A seat on the plane, it is a different kettle of fish when you are discussing the airlines that charge for advance seat selection. Delta is not one of them. However, for the Airtrans of the world that do, the person paying for the seat does have some ownership of the seat and the airline will not move that person.

Agreed. My problem is with the people (including on this thread) who are flying airlines that charge for seat selection, but are purposefully not paying for seat selection because "the airline will move people so that I can sit next to my child". If everyone else has to pay to ensure that they are sitting where/with whom they want, why shouldn't they?

My problem is NOT with people wanting to sit next to their child (or next to their husband, second cousin, or next door neighbour), my problem is with people who want to do this, but do not want to take responsibility for making it happen with minimal disturbance to other people.

 

[deegack]

I also think there are some false presumptions going on in this thread:

When you "reserve" a seat on an airline, you are not GUARANTEED that seat. Even if you reserve the first row aisle seat to get off that airplane the fastest for a connecting flight, you have no right to that seat. The airlines make that very clear when you book your flight. You are not entitled compensation if they move you. You have no right to due process over the fact that the airlines move you. The seat does not belong to you whether you reserved it or not, it belongs to the airline and they can do what they want with it. What you are "guaranteed" is a seat on that flight, and even that is only a guarantee is quotation marks because they can overbook, and they can cancel flights, though are you are at least entitled compensation if they choose to overbook and boot you, or you otherwise are unable to board the plane because of the airline.

So, if an airline like Delta determines that they are going to bump someone else out of a seat so that my daughter with significant special needs is seated directly next to me, then I'm not being the rude, selfish, uncaring person who "robbed" "you" of your seat. I merely presented a problem *to the airline* and the airline resolved it as they saw fit to do so. They own the airline, they have the plane, they make the decision. I'm not "making" anyone do anything. Nor am I feeling entitled to something that belongs to "you" just because I have children. I have a logistical problem (a seating issue with my children). I approach the airline staff about my logistical problem. They solve it.

So,I really think it is inappropriate to discussing parents who do nothing but request customer service as if they running up and down airplane aisles "forcing" the rule abiding, seat reserving grown-ups out of seats they own. *Everyone* is following the rules here--- the parents who request seating help, those who reserve seats in advance, those who sit in the "family section", those who end up in the emergency exit rows and on and on.

Any one who has a serious problem with the rights, responsibilities and rules that govern seating on an airplane needs to take it up with the airline that they fly, not berate their fellow passengers as if they are doing something wrong.

:heart

I'm sorry but failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part. If I paid extra for a certain type if seat (aisle, exit row etc) and you decide not to pay for seat selection or choose to take a flight where there are only scattered seats and your family can't sit together, that is not my problem. If sitting together is a priority for you then pay for seats and choose a flight that let's you sit together. Of course there is a chance that equipment will change or there is some other reason why the airline will change your seats but if you don't plan ahead it's not my problem.

 

[NotUrsula]

Folks, there is no such thing as ownership of an assigned seat; if the airline decides to vacate that assignment prior to boarding, for whatever reason, you have no recourse at all. Even if you paid for the assignment, the only obligation that the airline has is to refund the fee to you.

Airlines can and do vacate seat assignments right up until boarding begins; there are no guarantees of any kind.

However, do note: Once your tush is actually IN that assigned seat, per the FAA, the airline can only force you to move for one of two reasons: 1] to balance the weight load of the aircraft (not likely at ALL unless the plane is less than 25% occupied) or 2] to make room in a middle seat for a parent sitting next to a child who is occupying a carseat, so that there is someone who knows how the seat works who is responsible for getting that child out of it and off the plane in the event of an emergency evacuation. However, they don't LIKE forcing people to move for a carseat, and they will normally offer small bribes to get folks to voluntarily move in such cases.

IME, FA's will also usually offer bribes to get folks to move in order to seat pre-schooled aged or younger children with at least one parent, but usually will not do so if the child is older than 5 unless the parent claims that the child is special-needs.

There is no such thing as "Family Seating" on Delta or any other US-based carrier; the Delta rep told the OP a white lie to make the airline look more family-friendly. The real reason that they usually hold some less-desirable seats back for last-minute changes is so that they can more easily deal with problem parties without missing their target turn time. Turn time targets are a VERY sacred cow in the airline business.

Lastly, if you are American and it REALLY bothers you that school-aged kids are not guaranteed a seat position within arm's length of a parent, then I suggest that you write to one or all of the members of the Congressional Aviation Committee. They are the ones with the power to create such a rule. (FWIW, the UK has a law that mandates that kids 12 or younger be seated within "arm's reach" of an accompanying adult. They did NOT do this for the safety of the child, btw. They did it because emergency simulations proved over and over again that parents would invariably foul up emergency evacuations when separated from kids that age -- they went the wrong way in order to try to find their kids in the dark, which was ironic because in every single test, the child followed the FA's instructions to the letter and vacated the aircraft immediately, just as they were told to.)

PS: I did have a "forced re-seat" experience once on a full-sized aircraft that was caused by a need to balance the aircraft's weight. It was on a Frontier Airbus 318, and I was one of only 7 passengers on board. Two large gentlemen who were seated in the rear of the aircraft were told that they had to get up and move at least 2 rows forward of the trailing edge of the wings; they needed that 500 lbs. or so to not be in the tail of the aircraft. They grumbled a bit (I think because they both wanted to stretch out and sleep back there where it was quiet), but the FA's were adamant that the plane could not depart until they moved up front.

 

[AnrynKewkel]

Many airlines charge for seat assignments. With seats towards the front of the plane being more costly than seats towards the back of the plane. Would you not be a bit put out if you paid for your seat, and then were expected to move? Most people are not thrilled with the idea of throwing money away.

I know I always choose an aisle seat, because it keeps me from being clausterphobic and having a panic attack. If I had to sit squashed between 2 people I didn't know, or stuck by the window, it would be hell for me. Some people do have reasons for choosing certain seats, it is not always just a whim.

I'm not sure who from which airline told you they would move people around to accomodate your family, but they were very wrong. They can ask people to move, and sometimes they can shuffle seats around a bit at the gate. But they cannot force people to move so that your family can sit together.

Agree 100%

So, if an airline like Delta determines that they are going to bump someone else out of a seat so that my daughter with significant special needs is seated directly next to me, then I'm not being the rude, selfish, uncaring person who "robbed" "you" of your seat. I merely presented a problem *to the airline* and the airline resolved it as they saw fit to do so. They own the airline, they have the plane, they make the decision. I'm not "making" anyone do anything. Nor am I feeling entitled to something that belongs to "you" just because I have children. I have a logistical problem (a seating issue with my children). I approach the airline staff about my logistical problem. They solve it.

Um, yes you are. If you had paid to pick your seats ahead of time, just like everyone else, then you wouldn't need to approach the airline staff to have them solve your problem.

And of course, this is aside from the situation where there may be an equipment change and everyone ends up scattered all over the plane.

 

[ccgirl]

I also think there are some false presumptions going on in this thread:

When you "reserve" a seat on an airline, you are not GUARANTEED that seat. Even if you reserve the first row aisle seat to get off that airplane the fastest for a connecting flight, you have no right to that seat. The airlines make that very clear when you book your flight. You are not entitled compensation if they move you. You have no right to due process over the fact that the airlines move you. The seat does not belong to you whether you reserved it or not, it belongs to the airline and they can do what they want with it. What you are "guaranteed" is a seat on that flight, and even that is only a guarantee is quotation marks because they can overbook, and they can cancel flights, though are you are at least entitled compensation if they choose to overbook and boot you, or you otherwise are unable to board the plane because of the airline.

So, if an airline like Delta determines that they are going to bump someone else out of a seat so that my daughter with significant special needs is seated directly next to me, then I'm not being the rude, selfish, uncaring person who "robbed" "you" of your seat. I merely presented a problem *to the airline* and the airline resolved it as they saw fit to do so. They own the airline, they have the plane, they make the decision. I'm not "making" anyone do anything. Nor am I feeling entitled to something that belongs to "you" just because I have children. I have a logistical problem (a seating issue with my children). I approach the airline staff about my logistical problem. They solve it.

So,I really think it is inappropriate to discussing parents who do nothing but request customer service as if they running up and down airplane aisles "forcing" the rule abiding, seat reserving grown-ups out of seats they own. *Everyone* is following the rules here--- the parents who request seating help, those who reserve seats in advance, those who sit in the "family section", those who end up in the emergency exit rows and on and on.

Any one who has a serious problem with the rights, responsibilities and rules that govern seating on an airplane needs to take it up with the airline that they fly, not berate their fellow passengers as if they are doing something wrong.

:heart

If your DD has significant special needs, you may want to look into boarding early so you can get her on and get settled as easily as possible for her. I would also check the seating configuration ahead of time to ensure there are two seats available together at the time of booking, so as to disrupt other passengers as little as possible (regardless if they are "guaranteed" a specific seat or not). As you can see from this thread, many parents feel their children have needs which makes it necessary for them to be seated next to their child. However, as another poster mentioned, according to FAA rules the only guarantee when it comes to sitting with a child is if the child is in a car seat. Of course, the airline will do everything in their power to sit parents with their children. I think it behooves the parent to make sure they are seated with their children ahead of time as well.

While I don't disagree with your point about the fact that all your ticket gets you is A seat on the plane, it is a different kettle of fish when you are discussing the airlines that charge for advance seat selection. Delta is not one of them. However, for the Airtrans of the world that do, the person paying for the seat does have some ownership of the seat and the airline will not move that person.

I have been on several AirTran flights and I have heard the flight attendants tell passengers that if they wanted to sit with their party they should have paid for the seats ahead of time as others did. They then instruct them that they may ask other passengers to move but they will not force people to move.

Agreed. My problem is with the people (including on this thread) who are flying airlines that charge for seat selection, but are purposefully not paying for seat selection because "the airline will move people so that I can sit next to my child". If everyone else has to pay to ensure that they are sitting where/with whom they want, why shouldn't they?

My problem is NOT with people wanting to sit next to their child (or next to their husband, second cousin, or next door neighbour), my problem is with people who want to do this, but do not want to take responsibility for making it happen with minimal disturbance to other people.

Exactly. There is a thread now of someone asking if they should pay for their seats on AirTran that they are too cheap too and didn't think they would split up a party. Posters said they would and their reply was, "I'm not worried about them splitting up my party."

Folks, there is no such thing as ownership of an assigned seat; if the airline decides to vacate that assignment prior to boarding, for whatever reason, you have no recourse at all. Even if you paid for the assignment, the only obligation that the airline has is to refund the fee to you.

Airlines can and do vacate seat assignments right up until boarding begins; there are no guarantees of any kind.

However, do note: Once your tush is actually IN that assigned seat, per the FAA, the airline can only force you to move for one of two reasons: 1] to balance the weight load of the aircraft (not likely at ALL unless the plane is less than 25% occupied) or 2] to make room in a middle seat for a parent sitting next to a child who is occupying a carseat, so that there is someone who knows how the seat works who is responsible for getting that child out of it and off the plane in the event of an emergency evacuation. However, they don't LIKE forcing people to move for a carseat, and they will normally offer small bribes to get folks to voluntarily move in such cases.

IME, FA's will also usually offer bribes to get folks to move in order to seat pre-schooled aged or younger children with at least one parent, but usually will not do so if the child is older than 5 unless the parent claims that the child is special-needs.

There is no such thing as "Family Seating" on Delta or any other US-based carrier; the Delta rep told the OP a white lie to make the airline look more family-friendly. The real reason that they usually hold some less-desirable seats back for last-minute changes is so that they can more easily deal with problem parties without missing their target turn time. Turn time targets are a VERY sacred cow in the airline business.

Lastly, if you are American and it REALLY bothers you that school-aged kids are not guaranteed a seat position within arm's length of a parent, then I suggest that you write to one or all of the members of the Congressional Aviation Committee. They are the ones with the power to create such a rule. (FWIW, the UK has a law that mandates that kids 12 or younger be seated within "arm's reach" of an accompanying adult. They did NOT do this for the safety of the child, btw. They did it because emergency simulations proved over and over again that parents would invariably foul up emergency evacuations when separated from kids that age -- they went the wrong way in order to try to find their kids in the dark, which was ironic because in every single test, the child followed the FA's instructions to the letter and vacated the aircraft immediately, just as they were told to.)

Thank you for making that note about the car seat. I forgot about that one. Again, the car seat needs to be at the window so the parent would get the middle seat.

 

[tjmw2727]

While I don't disagree with your point about the fact that all your ticket gets you is A seat on the plane, it is a different kettle of fish when you are discussing the airlines that charge for advance seat selection. Delta is not one of them. However, for the Airtrans of the world that do, the person paying for the seat does have some ownership of the seat and the airline will not move that person.

Good point - Airtran charges to select any seat - ranging form $6 to $15 with the rest left for those who check in at T24. US air and United charge for aisle and select seats toward the front of the aircraft. Jet blue charges for extra legroom seats - again all of those range from $5 to 15 and I have even seen $20 on US air for the premium seats.

If someone knowingly chooses to take their chances at T24 or to choose a flight when its obvious that only middle seats are left then IMHO they should be willing to sit in those seats.

(Yes I have read many posts on the transportation board saying we booked xx flight even though there are only middle seats cause the price was cheap but I am sure they wouldn't sseparate me from my 5yo dd right!!!!)

IMHO is "unfair" to expect someone who did plan early or pay in advance to move to accomodate another persons need. Need could be extra legroom, aisle due to claustrophia or to accompany a minor child.

Again, for those who say they will not sit apart from their children do you have a plan for what you are willing to do/pay to make this happen? You really can't count on the airlines!!

Even on an airline like Delta that lets you select seats in advance for free - Delta also makes frequent schedule and quipment changes resulting with the computer scrambling the seats. So be sure to check and re-check your seats and have a back up plan. Even when booking well in advance and re-checking my seats I have arrived at the airport only to find I am separated from my kids, sometimes it works out and a few times it has not. Once my only option was to fly with oldest a few rows ahead of me or wait for the next flight. What would you be willing to do?

FWIW I have moved for families, I have moved for honeymooners and I have given up a prime seat for someone I felt needed it more than I did.

 

[rjthkids]

Folks, there is no such thing as ownership of an assigned seat; if the airline decides to vacate that assignment prior to boarding, for whatever reason, you have no recourse at all. Even if you paid for the assignment, the only obligation that the airline has is to refund the fee to you.

Airlines can and do vacate seat assignments right up until boarding begins; there are no guarantees of any kind.

This is exactly what I was referring to, regardless of whether you paid extra for that seat assignment or not. There is no recourse. You have no "rights" over a seat, no matter what you paid or didn't pay to select that seat.

And there seems to be some misunderstanding: except when I have flown Southwest airlines I have *never* gone into a booked flight without having selected assigned seats that seat me next to all of my children. If a flight did not have the seat assignments I needed, then I would not book that flight. Over the years, a handful of times I have had my confirmed seat assignments suddenly changed on me or nullified once I've made it to the airport for reasons no one has ever explained to me, but then again--- I don't "own" the seats so I don't ever walk over to check-in for a boarding flight presuming that we are going to have the same seats we pre-selected.

And yes, I would take a different flight to ensure that I was next to my children. I have children with significant special needs. I have a g-tube fed child with oxygen, a blind daughter who is developmentally less than three despite her age of 10 just to name two pertinent issues that require my attention during a flight, never mind the toddler. If an airline where to decide that the only way they could accommodate our seating needs would be to bump 7 of us to another flight, then I would choose to be bumped to another flight rather than scatter my children all over an airplane.

However, I presume that the airlines find it more convenient for themselves to switch around passengers on the flight I'm standing there to board, rather than to figure out how to get us the same needed seating arrangement on a flight in which we're adding an extra 7 people. It's a logistical problem and the airlines solve that logistical problem how they see fit. I don't tell them what they need to do, I tell them my problem and my needs "our seat assignments have been changed and I am now separated from my children who have XYZ needs and must be seated with me". For all my flying-with-children life that this has happened, the airlines have always chosen to solve that dilemma by re-arranging seat assignments. That is not my "fault" and it has nothing to do with my consideration of others, and this certainly doesn't rise to the level of some great issue of morality.

 

[duffy]

So, if an airline like Delta determines that they are going to bump someone else out of a seat so that my daughter with significant special needs is seated directly next to me, then I'm not being the rude, selfish, uncaring person who "robbed" "you" of your seat.

Yes, you are, and yes, you did. If you want to sit next to your kids, then pay the seat fee for all of you.

It's pretty simple.

 

[NotUrsula]

Well, no, she didn't, really. She specifically mentioned Delta, which does NOT charge for seat assignments, and which is notorious for vacating advance seat assignments with frequent miniscule flight schedule changes.

I've booked tickets with traditional carriers and not had it revealed until AFTER my non-refundable purchase was made that no advance seat selections would be possible on that flight. Once, on AA, the reason turned out to be that there were 19 deadheading crew members on that flight, and every single one of them was assigned an aisle seat. In fact, I turned up at the gate 3 hours prior to departure time, and the pilot I sat next to told me that he wasn't paged to be on that flight until an hour out -- but I wasn't given a seat pair when I checked in 2 hours earlier, because they were holding that aisle in case they MIGHT need it for a pilot.

 

[tjmw2727]

I am pretty sure there is recourse when you have paid for a seat assignment you don't receive, even if it is just a refund given after the flight.

 

[duffy]

Well, no, she didn't, really. She specifically mentioned Delta, which does NOT charge for seat assignments, and which is notorious for vacating advance seat assignments with frequent miniscule flight schedule changes.

Aahh. I did not realize that.

Still, anyone who wants my seat for no reason other than, well that they want my seat: make arrangements with the airline. Plan ahead. It's not my problem, it's yours. Don't try to guilt me into moving.

I'm perfectly capable of putting on my silk eyeshade thingie-you know, those things you wear to ensure total darkness?-and headphones and blocking you out.

 

[NotUrsula]

I am pretty sure there is recourse when you have paid for a seat assignment you don't receive, even if it is just a refund given after the flight.

IME, unless you have at least 2d tier status, a refund of the seat reservation fee is all you are going to get. They will refund it to your CC at the time of departure. (If you do have status, the usual compensatory offer is a nice bloc of miles in addition to the refund.)

 

[tjmw2727]

IME, unless you have at least 2d tier status, a refund of the seat reservation fee is all you are going to get. They will refund it to your CC at the time of departure. (If you do have status, the usual compensatory offer is a nice bloc of miles in addition to the refund.)

Exactly and I would imagine that the FA's are discouraged from creating refund situations.

And in my personal experience the airlines can not always accomodate passengers (including families) when seats are scrambled due to equipment or schedule changes.

 

[NotUrsula]

I'm sure that they are discouraged from creating refund situations, BUT I'm equally sure that if it comes down to a choice between refunding seat reservation fees or missing the turn time target because you can't get all the passengers seated before scheduled pushback, the turn time target will win every time.

This is a fascinating study published by Boeing a couple of years ago about the costing of delays. http://www.agifors.org/document.go?documentId=1661&action=download

Every minute that a commercial flight is delayed costs at least $120, and the per-minute cost rises the longer the delay lasts. You can move at least 10 Airtran passengers for $120.

 

[crashbb]

Exactly. There is a thread now of someone asking if they should pay for their seats on AirTran that they are too cheap too and didn't think they would split up a party. Posters said they would and their reply was, "I'm not worried about them splitting up my party."

To be fair (assuming that I'm thinking of the correct thread), the OP wasn't worried about them splitting up the party because he/she felt that the kids were old enough to sit alone. So, it wasn't that they felt that the airline wouldn't split them up, it was that they didn't really care if they did.

 

[ccgirl]

To be fair (assuming that I'm thinking of the correct thread), the OP wasn't worried about them splitting up the party because he/she felt that the kids were old enough to sit alone. So, it wasn't that they felt that the airline wouldn't split them up, it was that they didn't really care if they did.

Yup, they posted that after I posted on this thread. As you know, there are MANY threads of people saying they didn't want to spend the $$$ they are already spending enough and will just have the airline move people so they can sit next to their children. If not, they will just make sure their children yell, scream, throw up...yada..yada...yada....

 

[crashbb]

Yup, they posted that after I posted on this thread. As you know, there are MANY threads of people saying they didn't want to spend the $$$ they are already spending enough and will just have the airline move people so they can sit next to their children. If not, they will just make sure their children yell, scream, throw up...yada..yada...yada....

Absolutely (see posts within this thread, for example), I was just defending that one specific poster.

 

[melancholywings]

I'm sorry but failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part. If I paid extra for a certain type if seat (aisle, exit row etc) and you decide not to pay for seat selection or choose to take a flight where there are only scattered seats and your family can't sit together, that is not my problem. If sitting together is a priority for you then pay for seats and choose a flight that let's you sit together. Of course there is a chance that equipment will change or there is some other reason why the airline will change your seats but if you don't plan ahead it's not my problem.

This thread shows some of the worst side of humanity. The heartless, the selfish and cruel. I love how so many posters on here have just assumed that if they are asked to move seats it's because the parent who needs to sit next to their kid didn't prepare. Never mind that it's a fact that even if you pick a seat the airline will switch seats around as they see fit. Never mind that many of the airlines mentioned in this post don't even charge for seat selection. Never mind that parent may have selected and paid extra their seats too. No if the airline messes up the seats - that parent 'failed to plan' and accomidating the disabled isn't your 'problem'.

Telling the parent of a child with a disability who requires accomidations that they should have 'planned better' even if the airline is the one to blame for the seat issue is full of such ignorance and bigotry. I had thought the DIS was a safe place from that kind of prejudice.