Disney Theme Parks: Today vs. Yesterday

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by DancingBear
Perhaps I wasn't specific enough, but when I visited the Hotel Royal Plaza the "Downtown Disney" hotels all had very regular, free DISNEY bus service. The last time I checked, the frequency of this service had been dramatically reduced. Also, the last time I checked, no I-Drive or other off-site hotels (I've stayed at a few) had anything comparable.

Prehaps I'm not being clear. I'm saying that the DD hotels are now more then ever considered to be part of Disney (onsite hotels). That is my only point.


I don't know what you mean by regular even internal Disney Transportion is not "regular" anymore. The hotels I speak of have about 3-4 pickup and drop offs perday no charge.

 

[crusader]

Numbers are fun...but they don't tell if what Eisner is doing is help the company in the long run. Look at Enron, MCI(worldcom) or pick you favorite. Numbers look great for years and then bam. SSome funny accounting here and these companies are in the trash.

Absolutely.

So how do we rely on any figure or percentage tossed around here?

How do we know the attendance figures are accurate?

How do we know the theme parks are transferring money to the studios?

How do we know how much debt Disney really has?

There are things you can determine from that which is presented and there are things the company may hide because they play games. If you are going to continue to defend the argument that "bad short term decisions hurt long term results" based solely on go.com and buying the family channel and Eisner's bonus and the lack of "quality" programming you must be relying on some financial data. Or are you simply relying on someone's word.

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by crusader

There are things you can determine from that which is presented and there are things the company may hide because they play games. If you are going to continue to defend the argument that "bad short term decisions hurt long term results" based solely on go.com and buying the family channel and Eisner's bonus and the lack of "quality" programming you must be relying on some financial data. Or are you simply relying on someone's word.

I guess what I'm relying on is that I don't see movies being made about the Back Lot Tour 30 years from now. I don't see the Tower of Terro ABC movie being released in Widescreen so that the Disney nuts can buy it again. I don't Prime Evil Hurl being the classic Disney Attraction that HM is. I don't see people saying... "WOW that pretty lagoon sure does make a nice charcter meet and greet". You may see it differently though.

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by EUROPA
I don't know what you mean by regular even internal Disney Transportion is not "regular" anymore. The hotels I speak of have about 3-4 pickup and drop offs perday no charge.

I'm talking about every 20 minutes all day long, separate busses to Epcot and TTC. The hotels were clearly on Disney property and had this perk. I'm not sure what other perks on-siters had at the time, but I'm not sure that they are considered any more "Disney" now than they were then.

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by DancingBear
I'm talking about every 20 minutes all day long, separate busses to Epcot and TTC. The hotels were clearly on Disney property and had this perk. I'm not sure what other perks on-siters had at the time, but I'm not sure that they are considered any more "Disney" now than they were then.

Not really a huge issue anyway. So just so that we can quit typing about 2nd class hotels I'll say fine they were more Disney then then Now.

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by EUROPA
Numbers are fun...but they don't tell if what Eisner is doing is help the company in the long run. Look at Enron, MCI(worldcom) or pick you favorite. Numbers look great for years and then bam. SSome funny accounting here and these companies are in the trash.

Ok lets say that the company(Disney) did great between 84-now and Big E got his Billion and the company was split up and sold next year. Suddnly Big E is not looking so good uh? Now were those shot term profits worth killing the company and breaking it?

First, I don't think anyone thinks that Disney has any accounting scandals going on. Second, do you think that the ABC acquisition and Fox Family acquisition, etc. were designed to get "short term profits"?

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by DancingBear
First, I don't think anyone thinks that Disney has any accounting scandals going on. Second, do you think that the ABC acquisition and Fox Family acquisition, etc. were designed to get "short term profits"?

Just an example of how numbers don't always tell the truth.

I have no idea what Eisners hopes and dreams were when he wasted all of that money. For some reason I don't think that he was hoping, even cared or wished that ABC would be raking in the money 20 years from now. Or that Kids will really enjoy 30 year old cartoons and make ABC Family a hot cable channel in 30 years. Do you think that? All recent action from him indicate short term not long term.

 

[d-r]

Prehaps I'm not being clear. I'm saying that the DD hotels are now more then ever considered to be part of Disney (onsite hotels). That is my only point.

OK here is a little history of walt disney world for today, for what it is worth (I know that the hotels aren't really a main point, but I'm just throwing in .02).

The Lake Buena Vista Shopping Center opened in 1975. At that time, there were four hotels on hotel blvd. It was called Lake Buena Vista Hotel Plaza. I looked in old copies of Disney News (the old magazine that used to go to MKC members) from 1977 and 1978 (these were the oldest I could find in the attic). Those four hotels were conisdered "official" hotels at least as far back as then, and disney packages at them were offered to MKC members, just as packages were offered at polly, cont. and ft. wilderness. FWIW, in the summer of 1977 the "Lake Buena Vista five-night holiday" package, including five nights accomodations at one of the four hotels, six days unlimited shuttle service between hotel plaza and MK, two magic kingdom club ticket books, one day admission to river country, additional coupons and tickets good for choice of wdw activities was priced at $161 per adult, double occupancy, for mkc members. To compare, the "Vacation Kingdom Holiday" package, with four nights at cont. or polly, five days unlimeted admission to MK, ticket books, one day to river country, additional coupons and tickets, was $148 per adult, double occupancy. Three night Lake Buena Vista packages were $81 per adult, double occupancy. Three night package at ft. wilderness was $61 per adult, double ocupancy. At the Lake Buena Vista Vacation Villas or Treehouses (then became institute, now saratoga springs), three night package was $148 per adult, double occupancy.

Anyway, Empress Lilly opened in 1977, and sometime in the late 70s, not exactly sure when, the Lake Buena Vista Shopping Area name began to transition to the Disney Village Marketplace.

The 1978 Disney News calls the area the Walt Disney World Village at Lake Buena Vista. MKC members got a 10% discount there. the hotels were still called "Lake Buena Vista Hotel Plaza," and were still offered through official MKC packages.

By 1982, they were called the "Walt Disney World Village Hotel Plaza," and packages continued to be offered through the MKC. After the description of the packages at the Walt Disney World Village Resort Hotel Plaza Hotels, it mentions that thriftier family accomodations than the WDWBRHPH's could be found at off-property locations.

Yes but they were never "Downtown Disney Hotels" until Downtown Disney was built.

Anyway, they were always considered to be on-property. Yes, they weren't called "Downtown Disney" hotels until after Pleasure Island opened in 1989 (DTD West Side opened in 1998), and the Village was renamed Downtown Disney. But they were always called SOMETHING - they were the "WDW Village Hotel Plaza" back when DTD was called the "WDW Village Marketplace," and before that they were called the Lake Buena Vista Hotel Plaza, when DTD was called the "Lake Buena Vista Shopping Center."

DR

PS FWIW, the 1978 Disney News says "Walt Disney World is open 7 days a week throughout the year. The Magic Kingdom Theme Park is open from 9 AM to 7 PM, with extended operating hours during summer and holiday periods." The Summer of 1997 edition says "Summer Operating Hours: WDW is open seven days a week throughout the year. The Magic Kingdom Theme Park is open from 9 AM to 7 PM, with extended operating hours of 9 AM to 1 AM from June 11 through August 27 (not mem.day to labor day, fwiw).

 

[Another Voice]

1997: "The Magic Kingdom Theme Park is open from 9 AM to 7 PM, with extended operating hours of 9 AM to 1 AM from June 11 through August 27"

And at the time we considered those to be very short hours. But you've got to force the kiddies off to Pleasure Island to buy their snow globes somehow.

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by d-r
OK here is a little history of walt disney world for today, for what it is worth (I know that the hotels aren't really a main point, but I'm just throwing in .02).

The Lake Buena Vista Shopping Center opened in 1975. At that time, there were four hotels on hotel blvd. It was called Lake Buena Vista Hotel Plaza. I looked in old copies of Disney News (the old magazine that used to go to MKC members) from 1977 and 1978 (these were the oldest I could find in the attic). Those four hotels were conisdered "official" hotels at least as far back as then, and disney packages at them were offered to MKC members, just as packages were offered at polly, cont. and ft. wilderness. FWIW, in the summer of 1977 the "Lake Buena Vista five-night holiday" package, including five nights accomodations at one of the four hotels, six days unlimited shuttle service between hotel plaza and MK, two magic kingdom club ticket books, one day admission to river country, additional coupons and tickets good for choice of wdw activities was priced at $161 per adult, double occupancy, for mkc members. To compare, the "Vacation Kingdom Holiday" package, with four nights at cont. or polly, five days unlimeted admission to MK, ticket books, one day to river country, additional coupons and tickets, was $148 per adult, double occupancy. Three night Lake Buena Vista packages were $81 per adult, double occupancy. Three night package at ft. wilderness was $61 per adult, double ocupancy. At the Lake Buena Vista Vacation Villas or Treehouses (then became institute, now saratoga springs), three night package was $148 per adult, double occupancy.

Anyway, Empress Lilly opened in 1977, and sometime in the late 70s, not exactly sure when, the Lake Buena Vista Shopping Area name began to transition to the Disney Village Marketplace.

The 1978 Disney News calls the area the Walt Disney World Village at Lake Buena Vista. MKC members got a 10% discount there. the hotels were still called "Lake Buena Vista Hotel Plaza," and were still offered through official MKC packages.

By 1982, they were called the "Walt Disney World Village Hotel Plaza," and packages continued to be offered through the MKC. After the description of the packages at the Walt Disney World Village Resort Hotel Plaza Hotels, it mentions that thriftier family accomodations than the WDWBRHPH's could be found at off-property locations.


Anyway, they were always considered to be on-property. Yes, they weren't called "Downtown Disney" hotels until after Pleasure Island opened in 1989 (DTD West Side opened in 1998), and the Village was renamed Downtown Disney. But they were always called SOMETHING - they were the "WDW Village Hotel Plaza" back when DTD was called the "WDW Village Marketplace," and before that they were called the Lake Buena Vista Hotel Plaza, when DTD was called the "Lake Buena Vista Shopping Center."

DR

PS FWIW, the 1978 Disney News says "Walt Disney World is open 7 days a week throughout the year. The Magic Kingdom Theme Park is open from 9 AM to 7 PM, with extended operating hours during summer and holiday periods." The Summer of 1997 edition says "Summer Operating Hours: WDW is open seven days a week throughout the year. The Magic Kingdom Theme Park is open from 9 AM to 7 PM, with extended operating hours of 9 AM to 1 AM from June 11 through August 27 (not mem.day to labor day, fwiw).

Right.

 

[DisneyKidds]

I was under the impression that the 1990s hours were shorter than the earlier years.

Interesting what one finds when they take off the magical memory goggles and the truth is exposed .

Ok, ok - quick jab aside, hours are indeed less than "they used to be". However, not having been an "off season" visitor until the past couple of years, most people's postings on the subject left me with the distinct impression that even off season hours were greater back in the day. Maybe they weren't. Maybe this helps us keep some perspective (that was the word of last week, wasn't it?)

 

[hopemax]

Who's been giving you this impression? I swear only a couple months ago, the subject came up, I think by DisneyKidds, and I corrected the misbelief that the issue was all hours, but summer and Landbaron posted in really big letters that it was the SUMMER hours, that were his problem. Doesn't anyone else remember this?

I do have an additional concern that switching October hotel rates from value season to regular season (a move I can only see Disney making because bookings are high, therefore attendance is higher than in previous Octobers), but leaving the value season hours and entertainment schedules has the potential perplex and frustrate visitors.

So at this point, I don't know what we are supposed to do. How many more times do we have to say it's the summer hours, more than we already have in order for people to stop assuming that the issue is all hours?

Honestly, it really feels that posting is for nothing, because people are going to assume whatever they need to, to feel better about their own position anyway.

 

[d-r]

Honestly, it really feels that posting is for nothing, because people are going to assume whatever they need to, to feel better about their own position anyway.

Thanks for summing that up for me - I know exactly that frustration! It is comforting to read that, thanks Hope.

DR

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

OK. What a spin folks!! I’m dizzier than when I visited Dinorama!! These twoposts before Hope's has an official puke factor greater than M:S!!!

First we have Scoop! The one that says he really doesn’t care about Disney’s history, just don’t take away what HE finds magical!!

Okay. Wait a minute. Are you saying that MK was open from 9am to 7pm during non-peak seasons in 1978? I was under the impression that the 1990s hours were shorter than the earlier years. Was that just referencing summer hours?

To which the official DIS “pot-stirrer” adds:

Interesting what one finds when they take off the magical memory goggles and the truth is exposed

Which make all of us who hate the reduced hours seem like liars, charlatans and scoundrels!! Or worse – Just plain WRONG!!!

Thank God you are here Hope!!! And you’re right of course.

I swear only a couple months ago, the subject came up, I think by DisneyKidds, and I corrected the misbelief that the issue was all hours, but summer and Landbaron posted in really big letters that it was the SUMMER hours, that were his problem. Doesn't anyone else remember this?

I do. Thank you.






----------------------------------
This post written without the aid of “magical memory goggles”, but I can’t guarantee that it is read that way!!

Snow globe anyone?

 

[MelissathePooh]

Scoop - DR wasn't saying anything necessarily - he was quoting directly from some early Magic Kingdom Club Newsletters. I think we snagged from my mother at some point in time. They're really interesting - one is about the opening of Space Mountain in DL - the other - another is an '82 issue talking about the opening of Journey Into Imagination at Epcot.

They were the kind of like what the Mickey Monitor is today( I guess that is the best comparison).

AV - So did everyone think the off season (non-peak) hours were so short even back in 1977? I don't think they even had snow globes back then

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

AV - So did everyone think the off season (non-peak) hours were so short even back in 1977? I don't think they even had snow globes back then

No. I don’t think so. Like the dog keeps saying to the pig in Babe, “That’s just the things are!” You went in the off season you had NO (and I really do mean NO) crowds. If you went during the summer you had to fight the heat, humidity, crowds that were guaranteed to close the park at least once a week around the July fourth time period. But for that fight you had two parades, fireworks and that lovely empty park feeling for the last two to three hours!! Talk about MAGIC!!!!!

Anyway, that’s just the way life was.

No crowds – early hours.
Big crowds – late hours.





PS: Does your mention of a snow globe make them fair game again?

 

[MelissathePooh]

I swear if someone sent my AV's address I'd be tempted to load him up with Snow Globes

I don't really remember much about about the early days - I was just a baby afterall I know I have been during some peak times though - I remember pretty clear the days of Pirates being lined up OUTSIDE the building instead of at the top of the ramp! I don't remember the park every being closed for capacity though, but I do remember waiting in lines!

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Just playing catch up again. Sorry. Ignore it if you like, it's a little dated.


Well, an awful lot has gone on over the past few days. Let’s see if we can get back on track. At least the track I’m interested in.

Mr. Bear,

What if all of the new hotels weren't built by Eisner, but by a mix of chains, without any Disney theming?

I don’t mean to sound demeaning or overly simplistic, but SO WHAT!?

I mean do you call Pop Century “Disney Theming”? I don’t. And to varying degrees ALL the resorts built under Ei$ner’s careful reign fall into the same category. NONE were built with true “Disney Theming”. And even the rehabs and additions to the two originals have taken away from the primary concepts.

If the parks had been spun off separately, it probably would have been saddled with license agreements and such which siphoned off a good bit of the park revenue stream anyway. And who's to say that a separate park company would have any better management than the current regime?

Yes there may have been some money drained, but do you really think it would have been as severe as it has been had there been no (just shy of a) billion dollar internet fiasco, covering ABC’s financial butt and the CEO’s private bank account? I don’t.

And I’m not saying we might not be in the same shape, I’m just saying, in response to your assertions that Ei$ner SAVED the company, that we’d be no worse off and with just a little bit of luck we might have gotten a guy who “Got it”. And that’s really half the battle!!

The idea that the hotels and other development were built with no "plan" is preposterous. Disney has plans upon plans upon plans for the property.

Preposterous, eh? OK. Maybe it’s the “NO” that got you. How about “poor”? How about “little”? How about “plans upon plans” with no rhyme or reason, whatever will fit, let’s just plop a hotel here kind of plans?

What happened to the master plan for the property? Or if they hated that one, how about doing another of your own, with some sort of cohesive thought for the property, and an eye toward future growth. How about laying out a plan that actually takes the guest’s comfort, driving, transportation and architectural ambience into account? How about that kind of plan?

No. You are right Mr. Bear. I did misspeak. I said “no” plans. And there have been, as you so aptly pointed out, “plans upon plans”. And I agree. Way too many plans to suit me. It’s like the weather in Chicago. You don’t like? Hang around five minutes. It’ll change.

Oh, so Katzenberg's the creative genius.

I think AV and others covered that one. But, as for why EI$ner will never be good at it? He’s a micro-manager. He always has been and he always will be. And that just plain doesn’t work without a whole bunch of talent in you. And he ain’t got that either!!

Somewhat overbuilt or not, isn't it clear that Demon Mike has been successful in the plan to keep folks on the property for extended visits?

Oh! I quite agree, Mr. Bear. Yes!! Yes, indeed!! You will never get an argument out of me on this point. He is very good at exchanging the short term profit for the long term interest. He’s very good at mortgaging the future to meet the demands of the present. He’s a master at beating his next quarter. But at what price? That’s the ultimate question. At what price!?!?! I personally think the price is much, much, much too high!!

Good stab at Pop Century--I don't like it either, but we'll see how the public takes to it. Swan and Dolphin, though, are an Eisner triumph IMO--love that Michael Graves' stuff.

OH MY GOD!!!! Go back to your first paragraph!! Where is the Disney theme? Where is the Disney ‘touch’? Where is the Disney – ANYTHING?!?!?

You may like the look, and if they were on International Drive I might agree! But come on, Mr. Bear!! In Disney!?!?! Within the sight lines of EPCOT!?!?! Behind the Eiffel Tower, an upside-down cartoon looking fish! What’d ya thinkin’!?!?!

Scoop, you are just so silly sometimes.

Why? Because everything, EVERYTHING, has weaknesses. And, when you are set on finding a weakness, it can be done.

And sometimes it just jumps out and slaps you in the face. Dinorama anyone? DCA? Pop Century? Do we need to go on?

The same way that Alladin's Magical Carpets, Philarmagic, Saratoga Springs and many others are great for what they are.

Surely you can do better than this? One spinner ride that definitely detracts from the magic of the area (remember Scoop, I was a lone voice of car #3 that didn’t want to judge this ride before I saw it) and two items that aren’t even opened yet!!

Don’t you see how this type of talk just adds to the perception that you view Disney with rose colored glasses! All they have to do is announce something is coming and Scoop not only thinks it’s the greatest thing to hit Disney, he puts it in writing on the internet!!! And uses it as an argument that things are getting better!!!!

I think I’ll take my standard approach and wait and see if it lives up to expectations or exceeds them. (Maybe you should wait to. I’ll bet Greg already copied this and is saving it for a year from now!!)

 

[Testtrack321]

Quick question DVC, what about AKL? Is that up to the traditional "Disney Themeing" that Poly had?

 

[DisneyKidds]

Honestly, it really feels that posting is for nothing, because people are going to assume whatever they need to, to feel better about their own position anyway.

Sorry Hope, that is not what I am doing. Despite what some may think, that really isn't my style. You are correct - I do remember Baron specifying that HIS problem was summer hours. However, on the general topic of hours my impression had been that hours in general were shorther than in the past. I guess I was wrong. That may be because I've never invested that much energy in the hours discussions. I know what the hours used to be like in the summer and I know that comparatively they suck now. So perhaps I wasn't paying close enough attention, but I'm glad we've clarified.

It is nice to know I can always get the Baron going though . Stir the pot once in a while, sure - but more than anyone else? Not really. And I never take a contrary position for the sake of a contrary position. Really, I don't - so get that idea out of your head Baron.