Disney will post Alligator warning signs and fences

[walt's assistant]

It was plain stupid of Disney to build a beachfront on the lake to invite guests to the water with nighttime activities such as Movie night, electrical water pageant and fireworks viewing and not warn them of the dangers. The .0001%' odds were against this poor child. A little more effort and information by Disney could have decreased the odds even more.

The salient point! WDW created a situation where a small child could be killed by a dangerous animal by allowing the two to get close to each other. Horrifying and negligent!

 

[walt's assistant]

Ummm, that's EXACTLY what they have been doing for years. Even wildlife experts have said that it is impossible to remove them all. Also, it is against the law to mess with those under 4'. Also, all removal must be done by a licensed trapper.

Disney can and does manage the wildlife. What they can't do is eradicate it.

Hiring and training is a Disney strength. It is going to take continuous effort and will be never ending. But that stepped up effort would result in a dramatically decreased alligator population and a dramatically decreased risk to small children (however small a risk people think it is today...which unfortunately was not small enough for that poor little boy or his family).

 

[romitaz]

The salient point! WDW created a situation where a small child could be killed by a dangerous animal by allowing the two to get close to each other. Horrifying and negligent!

I sincerely hope you are being sarcastic here. Otherwise, wow.

 

[romitaz]

Hiring and training is a Disney strength. It is going to take continuous effort and will be never ending. But that stepped up effort would result in a dramatically decreased alligator population and a dramatically decreased risk to small children (however small a risk people think it is today...which unfortunately was not small enough for that poor little boy or his family).

I guess you just skim the boards and don't really read much of what is being said. All of this was addressed ad nauseam. The population HAS been decreased way below any other area. Please read up. It could be very enlightening!

 

[dlavender]

People just don't like statistics, I think. I guess when it finally happens, it's more "real" than something abstract like low probabilities. I would imagine it's as difficult to imagine these small probabilities as it is to imagine just how large 1 trillion is, even though we often hear the number talked about in reference to the national debt.

I still trust in the numbers.

I think people put too much trust in the numbers.

As I've posted before, do you still have a 1/trillion chance of being bitten by a shark while swimming next to one???

Statistics are manipulated all of the time without being dissected and understood.

 

[dlavender]

I've lived in Florida for most of my life.

When Disney World was built, alligators were receiving protection from the Lacey act and later would receive additional protection by being declared endangered just a couple of years later.

This poor two year old boy was the very first victim for the year in all of the state of Florida. Last year, only one person was fatally attacked. That person was killed in a spring that had always been safe for swimming up in an area of the spring where I had never seen a gator. This spring had/has excellent visibility. But, we get complacent swimming in an area that has always been safe. The person who was killed had gone diving in that same location many times.

Disney has significantly less gators than it would if it wasn't managing gators proactively. There is a trail near my home where I routinely walk and on a 2 mile walk I can EASILY count 40 gators sunning on the banks of what is little more than a marshy drainage ditch. I've only seen a few gators at Disney and I've been there quite a bit. If Disney wasn't managing gators, you would be able to count tons of them on the banks. Of course, those you see on the bank are only some of the gators that are actually there.

Additionally, the gator involved was of a size that is usually still very skittish. I spook 7 foot gators on a pretty regular basis. They usually have to be bigger than that to be bold enough to be a problem. 6 foot and smaller usually dive into the water and swim away when I'm within 20 feet or so. The big ones stay on land and watch you.

We all decide what risks we will take. I don't let my daughter wade in or play near freshwater bodies of water here in Florida even though she is a LOT more likely to die in a car accident on the way home from the park. I had good friends growing up that swam in the water on a regular basis without mishaps despite the large gators.

Pretty much, what happened to this kid was nobody's fault. It was a fantastically rare freak incident.

One of my favorite trails was ruined by tourists in the last few years. This is a trail that has tons of gators, but, also great migrating bird viewing. Anyways, despite tons of warning signs, tourists kept approaching and trying to handle baby gators. The park tried to keep it under control by posting a ranger, but, people kept approaching gators. They finally built a raised platform with a locked gate at the end and now the trail is a few hundred feet long instead of 2 miles long. From what I understand, now they only open the rest of the trail when they have the staffing to post what are essentially babysitters for tourists.
But, even with hundreds of ignorant people approaching tons of gators and attempting to catch baby gators, somehow, NO ONE GOT KILLED.

I share this point to illustrate how truly rare it is for a gator to actually kill a human.

There is a marina and dock near my home where people fish off the banks of a river which is just full of gators. On weekends, even small children are fishing right at the water's edge. That is a scene repeated all over the state of Florida and yet this poor kid is the ONLY gator fatality.

It's just bad luck.

If we're being truly honest with ourselves, the reason this is so upsetting is because it illustrates just one more way in which we are not in control. It's just one more thing to be afraid of. I think that people have really latched on to it because no one wants to think about Pulse nightclub and what might have happened at Disney. Which could really happen anywhere. But, that's not something we can control. We can control whether or not we go near freshwater in Florida. Alligators seem like a less complex problem and it's easy to get caught up in the 'put up a fence' 'post a better sign' rhetoric. You are still statistically more likely to die in a mass shooting than get killed by a gator. But, we all know how to fix the alligator problem from the safety and comfort of our living rooms. It gives us something to think about that has a solution.

Bottomline- I understand why Disney didn't have a fence there. There are tons of places in Florida with gators and tourists, no fences and no fatalities. I understand why the parents of that child thought it was safe, because it was safe 99.99% of the time for the other 99.99% of people who used that beach. Sometimes, you are just that incredibly unlucky person or family who make up the 0.001%. It's not fair, but, last I checked life isn't fair when it's handing out cancer either.

I also lived in Florida for most of my life. Grew up on a lake. Have seen my share of gators. But I have a totally different take.
Disney noticed they had gators, they know that they have beaches which they encourage people to visit, they know these beaches are on bodies of water with alligators, they chose to not tell their international travelers about it.

All of this talk about statistics is misplaced. As I just posted, you have to put them in perspective. How likely are you to be attacked by an alligator while working on the 19th floor of an office building in South Dakota? Is it the same as standing in water with alligators? No, no it isn't. Just because you and I grew up around gator infested waters, doesn't mean that a family from the Midwest did. At least that trail you were on had warning signs. Possibly saved someones life, however, we will never know. Same in this situation.

Going back to your mass shooting statistic (not really a great time to throw that one in, btw), if you see someone approaching you with a gun, do you say to yourself, well, statistically I'm more likely to die in a car crash, and then not think about it??

Statistics is a decision making tool, there are times to use it, and times to use your own common sense.....

 

[Accident]

Last year, only one person was fatally attacked. That person was killed in a spring that had always been safe for swimming up in an area of the spring where I had never seen a gator. This spring had/has excellent visibility. But, we get complacent swimming in an area that has always been safe. The person who was killed had gone diving in that same location many times.

at least 2 were killed, you had the guy in december hiding from police that was killed. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...lorida-burglary-suspect-hiding-cops/76966512/

but I agree with your point, it's really really rare and a horrible accident that happened. (I still blame anyone that fed the gators for training it that the resort beach is food)

 

[Dean Marino]

The salient point! WDW created a situation where a small child could be killed by a dangerous animal by allowing the two to get close to each other. Horrifying and negligent!

All personal opinion - no, they did not. The State of FL created this situation. It is outlined in FL Law. Were WDW to ATTEMPT to kill, or "Round up" alligators? WDW executives would be subject to a FELONY, in the third degree, if they did NOT seek STATE permission. I have no idea how the governing STATE body reacted to this situation PRIOR to the current problem. I DO know, based on State of FL Law, that WDW was not empowered to act outside of the law. So - what was the behavior of the STATE, prior to this incident? Anyone have any documentation?:

https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2012/379.409

 

[sarah4770]

All personal opinion - no, they did not. The State of FL created this situation. It is outlined in FL Law. Were WDW to ATTEMPT to kill, or "Round up" alligators? WDW executives would be subject to a FELONY, in the third degree, if they did NOT seek STATE permission. I have no idea how the governing STATE body reacted to this situation PRIOR to the current problem. I DO know, based on State of FL Law, that WDW was not empowered to act outside of the law. So - what was the behavior of the STATE, prior to this incident? Anyone have any documentation?:

https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2012/379.409

Not Exactly.... Disney has an open permit.
Gators are killed by trappers and the trappers are compensated by the sale of the meat and skin.
According to the Orlando Sentinel today, the report was released by the commission today and 16 gators were removed last year at WDW, and 16 so far this year.

however see this video on WESH2 that explains how Disney handles it

http://www.wesh.com/news/disney-wil...utinely-removes-gators-officials-say/40075110



Copied and Pasted by the Florida Fish and Game Commission site.
"Program News and Information

What is a nuisance alligator?

Generally, an alligator may be considered a nuisance if it is at least four feet in length and is believed to pose a threat to people, pets or property.

Why aren’t small alligators removed?
Alligators less than 4 feet in length are not large enough to be dangerous unless handled. They eat fish, frogs and other small animals. Typically, they are not large enough to be a threat even to small pets. The mere presence of a small alligator is not cause for concern. Occasionally, alligators less than 4 feet in length are legitimate problems and must be addressed. If an alligator less than four feet in length is a concern, call the Nuisance Alligator Hotline at 866-FWC-GATOR (866-392-4286).

Why does the FWC not relocate nuisance alligators in Florida?
Florida has a healthy and stable alligator population. We have about 1.3 million alligators in Florida. Alligators live in all 67 counties, and they inhabit all wild areas of Florida that can support them. The removal of nuisance alligators does not have a significant impact on our state's alligator population.

Relocated alligators often try to return to their capture site. They can create problems for people or other alligators along the way. If an alligator successfully returns, capturing it again would be necessary and likely more difficult the second time.

To avoid creating a problem at the release site, nuisance alligators would need to be relocated to remote areas where they would not encounter people. These remote areas already have healthy alligator populations, and the ones that already live there have established social structures. The introduction of a new alligator to these areas would likely cause fighting, possibly resulting in the death of a resident alligator or the introduced alligator."

 

[sarah4770]

I guess you just skim the boards and don't really read much of what is being said. All of this was addressed ad nauseam. The population HAS been decreased way below any other area. Please read up. It could be very enlightening!

Where did you find that information?

 

[rteetz]

According to Tikiman plexiglass is going up on the balconies of the bungalows as a prevention and netting for the fences on the beach have been seen on palates at the Poly.

He also goes on to say that when Beaches reopen they will only be open from sunrise to sunset.

 

[Silock]

As I've posted before, do you still have a 1/trillion chance of being bitten by a shark while swimming next to one???

Statistics are manipulated all of the time without being dissected and understood.

Your example is moving the goalposts. A question similar to the current situation is what are the chances of being bitten by a shark while swimming in the ocean.

In this case, the numbers are plainly visible for anyone to see, so manipulation is extremely difficult. It's not even hard math. It's pretty basic stuff.

 

[Silock]

According to Tikiman plexiglass is going up on the balconies of the bungalows as a prevention and netting for the fences on the beach have been seen on palates at the Poly.

He also goes on to say that when Beaches reopen they will only be open from sunrise to sunset.

I'm fine with the netting, but no more watching Wishes from the beaches is a major buzzkill.

 

[dlavender]

Your example is moving the goalposts. A question similar to the current situation is what are the chances of being bitten by a shark while swimming in the ocean.

In this case, the numbers are plainly visible for anyone to see, so manipulation is extremely difficult. It's not even hard math. It's pretty basic stuff.

I have not yet seen the statistic for in the water at night on that beach.

Also, there is reason to believe that the data set had changed. Given the reports (not yet validated to be fair) of feeding and sightings, more activity would alter the stats presented.

My point is a historical stat should be viewed in context, not solely relied upon.

Is the statistic so strong because of safety guards elsewhere? Does the statistic take into account only people who are on bodies of water that have alligators active in them, at night?

 

[JenLT]

(I still blame anyone that fed the gators for training it that the resort beach is food)

More specifically according to all the articles I've been reading, it trains the alligators that people=food. Apparently, they don't differentiate between people FEEDING them and people being food.

 

[JenLT]

According to Tikiman plexiglass is going up on the balconies of the bungalows as a prevention and netting for the fences on the beach have been seen on palates at the Poly.

He also goes on to say that when Beaches reopen they will only be open from sunrise to sunset.

I'm glad to see that Disney is taking steps to mitigate the possibility of future attacks. If it prevents even one death, it is worth it.

 

[rteetz]

The beaches are back open

http://wdwnt.com/blog/2016/06/update-walt-disney-world-reopens-beaches-following-gator-attack/

 

[romitaz]

Where did you find that information?

Just look at the numbers. The lagoon itself is very large. In any undeveloped area that large, you would find dozens of of alligators.

The beaches are back open

http://wdwnt.com/blog/2016/06/update-walt-disney-world-reopens-beaches-following-gator-attack/

Glad to see they are back open with minimal intrusiveness on the view but gets the point across very clearly. Stay out of the damn lake!

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Hiring and training is a Disney strength. It is going to take continuous effort and will be never ending. But that stepped up effort would result in a dramatically decreased alligator population and a dramatically decreased risk to small children (however small a risk people think it is today...which unfortunately was not small enough for that poor little boy or his family).

I'm guessing you haven't really thought about that statement in a Long Time...

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I'm fine with the netting, but no more watching Wishes from the beaches is a major buzzkill.

You've seen it...and there are other ways to watch.

Plus...the writing is on the wall on big, overhead fireworks displays...they are going to be toned down and eventually eliminated...little doubt