DVC OWNER NO REFUND

Lumpy1106

DIS Veteran
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
While I don’t condone making a profit from someone’s pain, I think you’re mistaken when it comes to the value of those lost points. It’s not just the annual dues but also what it cost that owner to purchase those points to begin with. I have no idea what the OP paid per point. I’m not going to attempt the math. And I don’t know what the owner paid for their DVC contract. For all we know, they took in less than they spent on those points. There are a lot of owners who rent their points just to recover their expenses. This owner could be one of them. Please don’t assume that anything over the cost of annual dues is a profit. It’s not.
Nope, never said that and I see your point. There is a lot we don't know here. Are these points banked? Current? Borrowed? No idea. How much did the points cost the owner? Also, no idea. We do know that the OP is out $5K. If they offered the owner $2k to cover MFs regardless of point status that seems more than fair. Would the owner take a loss with that settlement? Maybe a little when you consider depreciation (i.e. one less year left on the contract) , but think of the businesses that are losing everything right now. Taking a small loss on something that is not supposed to be an "investment" in the first place seems lucky. Keep in mind, the OP is out whatever they end up giving the owner and they are getting NOTHING. The problem we have as we know it is that the owners is not communicating at all, meaning they are getting the full $5k as it stands and, I agree with the OP, that is not fair.
 

Marionnette

Children see magic because they look for it
Joined
Sep 26, 2009
Nope, never said that and I see your point. There is a lot we don't know here. Are these points banked? Current? Borrowed? No idea. How much did the points cost the owner? Also, no idea. We do know that the OP is out $5K. If they offered the owner $2k to cover MFs regardless of point status that seems more than fair. Would the owner take a loss with that settlement? Maybe a little when you consider depreciation (i.e. one less year left on the contract) , but think of the businesses that are losing everything right now. Taking a small loss on something that is not supposed to be an "investment" in the first place seems lucky. Keep in mind, the OP is out whatever they end up giving the owner and they are getting NOTHING. The problem we have as we know it is that the owners is not communicating at all, meaning they are getting the full $5k as it stands and, I agree with the OP, that is not fair.
I’m all in favor of “shared pain” when it comes to the rentals that got cancelled during the shutdown. No renter should have to bear the full loss, IMO, but neither should the owner. Certainly some compromise could be reached, whether it be 50/50 or another amount agreeable to both parties, or a use of the points at a later date if they have not expired as of yet.

It stinks that the owner had gone AWOL on the OP. Much could have been accomplished if the channels of communication were left open. Now, the points are 2 months older and any available rooms are getting booked up as members reschedule their summer/early fall trips.
 

mentos

Minty fresh happy haunts
Joined
Aug 19, 2017
Paypal does not look at timeshare rentals as refundable..no matter how you paid..no chance there
Really? This is all I found on the exclusions page, the only thing that comes close is "real estate" and the buyer is not purchasing real estate, they purchased the promise of lodging.


Ineligible items and transactions under PayPal’s Purchase Protection program
Payments for the following are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Purchase Protection:
  • Real estate, including residential property.
  • Financial products or investments of any kind.
  • Businesses (when you buy or invest in a business).
  • Vehicles, including, but not limited to, motor vehicles, motorcycles, recreational vehicles, aircraft and boats.
  • Significantly Not as Described claims for wholly or partly custom-made items or items picked up in person, except for in-person PayPal QR code goods and services transactions.
  • Donations including payments on crowdfunding platforms.
  • Items prohibited by the PayPal Acceptable Use Policy.
  • For Item Not Received claims, items which you collect in person or arrange to be collected on your behalf, including items bought in a seller’s store location, except for in-person PayPal QR code goods and services transactions.
  • Industrial machinery used in manufacturing.
  • Anything purchased from, or an amount paid to, a government agency.
  • Stored value items such as gift cards and pre-paid cards.
  • Gambling, gaming and/or any other activity with an entry fee and a prize.
  • Personal Payments.
  • Payments sent using PayPal to any bill payment service.
  • Payments made using PayPal Payouts and Mass Pay or guest checkout transactions (i.e. not sent using your PayPal account).
  • Items intended for resale, including single item transactions or transactions that include multiple items.
 
  • mentos

    Minty fresh happy haunts
    Joined
    Aug 19, 2017
    Except the owner did live up to their side of the contract. Pretty much all dvc rental contracts I've seen have said the points are non-refundable. So their end of the contract would be to book the room. That's why there's a risk in renting DVC points. Covid presented a unique situation, but there are others who have had to cancel for illness, etc in the past and unless they got insurance they were out the money. That's why these rooms are selling at a discounted rate. As someone else said, you can pay more to get the room from disney, but then have much higher flexibility.
    I'm quoting this for truth, as crappy as the situation is. The term in the insurance field is "risk premium" that is paying more to cover more risk, flip it around to DVC rentals and renters are looking at a "risk discount" in that they are paying much MUCH less to assume higher amounts of risk.

    Unfortunately, risk came to cash their check, which is why it's important for renters to hedge the risk with travel insurance.

    My hope is the renter and the owner can come to an amicable settlement that shares the risk, but a) contract-wise the owner owes nothing and b) I think the owner actually said they'd give a full refund, then ghosted the OP. Hard to make comments from the outside, though.
     

    robinb

    DIS veteran
    Joined
    Aug 29, 1999
    Unfortunately, risk came to cash their check, which is why it's important for renters to hedge the risk with travel insurance.
    I don't think that you can even buy travel insurance for a private transaction. In any case, travel insurance in other circumstances has left people high if their vacation was interrupted because of Covid. Travel insurance would not have made this situation any better.
     

    mentos

    Minty fresh happy haunts
    Joined
    Aug 19, 2017
    I don't think that you can even buy travel insurance for a private transaction. In any case, travel insurance in other circumstances has left people high if their vacation was interrupted because of Covid. Travel insurance would not have made this situation any better.
    A CFAR rider would cover the situation, but you are correct, COVID is a known issue and insurance companies stipulated anything after February 28(?) when the first case was publicized made it a foreseeable event.

    The transaction type would be irrelevant, technically Airbnb transactions are private and those are for sure covered. So long as there's appropriate proof -- contract, invoice, receipt, etc... those are the requirements.

    I know the company I use (the name escapes me, they all sound the same) even has provisions for payout when staying with family members, and suddenly those family members are unable to host due to X covered situation (sickness, death, fire, etc...)
     

    robinb

    DIS veteran
    Joined
    Aug 29, 1999
    A CFAR rider would cover the situation, but you are correct, COVID is a known issue and insurance companies stipulated anything after February 28(?) when the first case was publicized made it a foreseeable event.

    The transaction type would be irrelevant, technically Airbnb transactions are private and those are for sure covered. So long as there's appropriate proof -- contract, invoice, receipt, etc... those are the requirements.

    I know the company I use (the name escapes me, they all sound the same) even has provisions for payout when staying with family members, and suddenly those family members are unable to host due to X covered situation (sickness, death, fire, etc...)
    AFAIK, Airbnb offers their own insurance that you buy when you make your reservation on their platform, so that's not the same as saying someone who is renting from an individual should have purchased travel insurance.

    There were many reports across multiple parts of the travel industry where travel insurance was only worth the paper it was printed on when it came to Covid. It was a real shame because people bought it to be protected and they were not. The hotels, cruise lines, airlines, etc, etc, even Airbnb stepped up and made things at least *better* for people. All without travel insurance. Just as the DVC Member should step up and make this better.
     

    elemeht

    Earning My Ears
    DVC Gold
    Joined
    Jul 12, 2018
    As an owner I can tell you it sucks to have to eat the cost of the points. I refunded the money for the points I had rented over the summer (points that were already banked) because I could not crush someone's Disney vacation dreams.

    But... I'm not depending on that money to pay for the points, I can see where if I'd already sent that $5k to Disney for a payment on my loan or something then it would be much harder to do.
    Plus, I've been told by DVC member services that I'll be able to move those points into RCI even if I can't rent them this year.
     

    Deb & Bill

    DVC-Trivia Contest, Apr-2006: Honorable Mention
    Joined
    Mar 20, 2000
    The other issue on these reservation is that DVC resorts were still open, but the parks closed on the first day of the reservations. If they didn't show up, the reservations may have been cancelled.
     

    New Mouse

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Jun 8, 2010
    Just an IMHO, if you are an owner and you rent your points and something like COVID happens, it is REALLY sleezy of you to expect the renter to absorb anything more than the MF's for the year you can't use the points. I mean, you have a claim that your points were tied up by the renter and you could not use them, but to PROFIT off of this? I have no words. Do the right thing.
    Points cost more than just maintenance fees.
     

    sethschroeder

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Feb 24, 2013
    Something I have just thought about with all of this. If points started going for 2-3x the value could the owner just cancel and re-rent the points? Seems the owner has to take on the risk around this when the whole point of these contracts (at least the ones I always signed as a renter) was that I was taking on all risk.

    If I was the owner I for sure would outline the value of the points though and offer to rebook the reservation with the specific points in question. Refund of any sort? Not sure not in the position so can't say what I would do and can't speak for other owners. For all we know some of these owners are behind on their mortgage, can't afford any expenses, and are really hard up right now. Odds are there are at least a couple in this position out of the 1000s of reservations that were rented out.
     

    mentos

    Minty fresh happy haunts
    Joined
    Aug 19, 2017
    AFAIK, Airbnb offers their own insurance that you buy when you make your reservation on their platform, so that's not the same as saying someone who is renting from an individual should have purchased travel insurance.

    There were many reports across multiple parts of the travel industry where travel insurance was only worth the paper it was printed on when it came to Covid. It was a real shame because people bought it to be protected and they were not. The hotels, cruise lines, airlines, etc, etc, even Airbnb stepped up and made things at least *better* for people. All without travel insurance. Just as the DVC Member should step up and make this better.
    Unfortunately, there are more bad than good trip insurance companies and policies out there. I’ve seen some really bad ones, and usually companies that sell policies alongside bookings (Expedia, Airbnb) have really crummy policies. I exclusively purchase through an independent third party trip insurance broker who can answer questions/specific scenarios up front and help select a policy with terms favorable to the risk profile.

    People had bad experiences with trip insurance because they did not understand the terms or the product. Legally, it’s all there for them to leisurely read in the fine print, but most don’t.

    Most good policies will cover private transaction lodging so long as there is a reasonable paper trail and the transaction is arms length. I insure my 2-4 week whole-house trips this way when using VRBO, Airbnb, or a local real estate firm.

    As an owner and sometimes renter, I absolutely would not rely on the good graces of an owner to deviate from our agreed upon contract and make me whole. Spending $5000 with no hedge is a dangerous game to play, either insure it with a CFAR trip insurance policy, offer $$$ to the owner in exchange for a more favorable refund policy (my daughter’s private school does this for summer camp), or book a hotel.

    IMO best case scenario here is a negotiated settlement, share the loss. I’m just assuming the owner has buyer’s remorse with offering the full refund in June as evidenced by the ghosting.
     

    SteveMouse

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Oct 6, 2002
    Really? This is all I found on the exclusions page, the only thing that comes close is "real estate" and the buyer is not purchasing real estate, they purchased the promise of lodging.


    Ineligible items and transactions under PayPal’s Purchase Protection program
    Payments for the following are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Purchase Protection:
    • Real estate, including residential property....
    On https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/article/What-is-PayPal's-policy-regarding-the-sale-of-real-property-FAQ799

    it elaborates on selling real estate to include (they’re missing a “u.”):
    • Timeshare transactions -- offers to buy, sell, or rent rights to the periodic se of a property. A timeshare is real estate that is jointly owned by people who share the right to use the property and take turns using it.
     

    Dean

    DIS Veteran<br><a href="http://www.wdwinfo.com/dis
    Joined
    Aug 19, 1999
    You are absolutely correct, I booked 4 rooms studio at Boardwalk villas for March 2020. The contract did not state that I would get a refund however I do have emails from the owner that said she would return all my money Once she sold the points. That was five months ago. It just surprises me that this person also works for Disney! Before I gave her the money for the rental she would email me every day within five minutes after I emailed. But now weeks and weeks and weeks before I get a response and now last response was June 4th! Lesson learned I guess.. $5000 loss is a big pill to swallow! I really do appreciate all your input thank you very much.
    The points may not be able to be rented and if so, likely not for as much as you paid.

    Yes, some if it was paid by credit card and some was pay pal from checking account. If I go the credit card challenge route it will be the contract versus emails. Meaning contract did not state there was any refund at all. However I do have emails that state that I would get a full refund due to coronavirus. I think it just comes down to the owner got all the points back and can resell them and most people would refund the money. If this was not the intent I think the owner would be in correspondence with us. Lessons learned, I do not have address or phone number for this owner. Everything was done through email. I’m going to give it a month and then I will eventually just go to to Disney and DVC and let them know their employee in SALES Is double dipping the points. I really am just trying to sit back and let this work itself out but with no correspondence with owner what am I supposed to do! I realize that this is more of just a venting exercise but I really do appreciate all your input.
    In spite of some of the above, paypal considers a timeshare rental as outside of their scope. One might be able to dispute the charges if it's not been over the cutoff by the CC company but I suspect it is. Paypal will almost certainly close the account if one does but that's not the end of the world.
    If the person you rented from was a Disney employee, she might not have been recalled to work and doesn't have any money to refund you right now. Or waiting for umemployment to give her money so she can refund your money. Many owners who rent out their points do it to pay off other costs and don't just have it sitting in the bank in an escrow account if you can't go.
    If it was an employee, renting DVC points out is likely in violation of their employment rules. You may want to follow up on this then if no resolution, call MS and speak to a supervisor. Explain the situation that you believe this was an employee renting and ask if this is allowed if so.

    Certainly an agreement is an agreement but on a case by case basis some shared loss is reasonable if the resort were unavailable. No if the resort is available and you just decide not to go, I don't necessarily feel the same way no matter the real or perceive risks.
     

    New Mouse

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Jun 8, 2010
    Unfortunately, there are more bad than good trip insurance companies and policies out there. I’ve seen some really bad ones, and usually companies that sell policies alongside bookings (Expedia, Airbnb) have really crummy policies. I exclusively purchase through an independent third party trip insurance broker who can answer questions/specific scenarios up front and help select a policy with terms favorable to the risk profile.

    People had bad experiences with trip insurance because they did not understand the terms or the product. Legally, it’s all there for them to leisurely read in the fine print, but most don’t.

    Most good policies will cover private transaction lodging so long as there is a reasonable paper trail and the transaction is arms length. I insure my 2-4 week whole-house trips this way when using VRBO, Airbnb, or a local real estate firm.

    As an owner and sometimes renter, I absolutely would not rely on the good graces of an owner to deviate from our agreed upon contract and make me whole. Spending $5000 with no hedge is a dangerous game to play, either insure it with a CFAR trip insurance policy, offer $$$ to the owner in exchange for a more favorable refund policy (my daughter’s private school does this for summer camp), or book a hotel.

    IMO best case scenario here is a negotiated settlement, share the loss. I’m just assuming the owner has buyer’s remorse with offering the full refund in June as evidenced by the ghosting.
    Or its possible they got more clarity on what dvc would or wouldnt do for them at that point and the points then became less valuable or worthless.
     

    CraigInPA

    Since June 1974
    Joined
    Jun 11, 2012
    Something I have just thought about with all of this. If points started going for 2-3x the value could the owner just cancel and re-rent the points? Seems the owner has to take on the risk around this when the whole point of these contracts (at least the ones I always signed as a renter) was that I was taking on all risk.

    If I was the owner I for sure would outline the value of the points though and offer to rebook the reservation with the specific points in question. Refund of any sort? Not sure not in the position so can't say what I would do and can't speak for other owners. For all we know some of these owners are behind on their mortgage, can't afford any expenses, and are really hard up right now. Odds are there are at least a couple in this position out of the 1000s of reservations that were rented out.
    If points were going for $40-60 per point, they would exceed the cost that Disney charges for CRO bookings of the same rooms. With CRO bookings, you can cancel up to the day before and only pay a day (or sometimes nothing). People do private rentals to save money. At $20 per point, they're saving 40-50% of the CRO price. For that savings, they have to give up the security that CRO bookings carry.

    As an owner, I believe that I should be up front about the status of the points I'm renting. The last direct rental I made, I told the renter when the banked points I was renting them expired and told them if they needed to re-book, I'd take care of that for them. As it turns out, they moved their dates several months and I was able to re-book them. On the other hand, my contract was clear (with a force majeure clause) that no money would ever be refunded for any reason. I'd bend over backwards to allow them to use the points until their expiration date, but I'm not going to get into doing a refund after the points were tied up with their reservation for months. In my view, they are renting specific points to be used for lodging, not a guaranteed room reservation at a particular resort on particular dates.
     

    mentos

    Minty fresh happy haunts
    Joined
    Aug 19, 2017
    On https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/article/What-is-PayPal's-policy-regarding-the-sale-of-real-property-FAQ799

    it elaborates on selling real estate to include (they’re missing a “u.”):
    • Timeshare transactions -- offers to buy, sell, or rent rights to the periodic se of a property. A timeshare is real estate that is jointly owned by people who share the right to use the property and take turns using it.
    thank you for this, all the more reason to insure a big trip in a different way
     

    starry_solo

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Nov 19, 2010
    thank you for this, all the more reason to insure a big trip in a different way
    Travel insurance won't work when the resorts are closed. The insured is not the one canceling the trip (which is what would the CFAR insurance would cover). There was a big discussion about it on the thread re: David's. People with CFAR insurance posted that they thought their insurance would cover it but their dates had not yet come and then they never showed back up to let anyone know that the CFAR insurance actually did cover it.
     

    mentos

    Minty fresh happy haunts
    Joined
    Aug 19, 2017
    Travel insurance won't work when the resorts are closed. The insured is not the one canceling the trip (which is what would the CFAR insurance would cover). There was a big discussion about it on the thread re: David's. People with CFAR insurance posted that they thought their insurance would cover it but their dates had not yet come and then they never showed back up to let anyone know that the CFAR insurance actually did cover it.
    This doesn’t make any sense, a properly bound CFAR policy (that is, booked within 14 days of the first payment, entire trip amount insured, etc...) covers literally any reason.

    I could get a hang nail today and cancel the trip, as long as the cancellation is > 72 hours before the start of the trip. That’s why they’re so expensive. Resort closure have nothing to do with a CFAR policy.

    I’ll dive into the David’s thread, but I doubt anyone posted their policy & specific circumstances for me to read.
     

    starry_solo

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Nov 19, 2010
    This doesn’t make any sense, a properly bound CFAR policy (that is, booked within 14 days of the first payment, entire trip amount insured, etc...) covers literally any reason.

    I could get a hang nail today and cancel the trip, as long as the cancellation is > 72 hours before the start of the trip. That’s why they’re so expensive. Resort closure have nothing to do with a CFAR policy.

    I’ll dive into the David’s thread, but I doubt anyone posted their policy & specific circumstances for me to read.
    I suspect most of the people with the CFAR policy were waiting for the date to pass with the resort closure rather than actually being proactive and canceling the trip when they knew the resort was likely to be closed?
     

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