Epcot to get major transformations

[Mordu]

At the moment I don't see why they would. Judging from the trailer "Coco" didn't really grab me and usually they do. I don't think it's going to be super successful. I won't even sneak into a theater to see it.

I know it was just a trailer I'm judging it on, but there doesn't seem to be enough likable characters in it. Plus all of them look the same and it's not because they're Mexican either. Nope, I'm not racist, it's because most of them are skeletons. That's like having a whole movie of Jack Skellington's.

I know it's early, but I think they missed the mark on this one.

I Wasn't impressed with the trailer either- but my guess is that it will do better than it probably should because the new Olaf short will be shown before it

 

[Mordu]

Ahh Epcot... I went in '82 as a child (I think) and wasn't a fan .. the countries were neat, I liked figment and the imagination pavilion, but I was expecting more of a mk feel... ( I really wished I would have seen Cranuim Command.. that sounds amazing) As an adult and a parent, it is my absolute favorite park. My children love it and it offers a fun way to learn about the world. The park is better suited to today's size crowds than MK. Epcot is the reason we have gone to WDW each year for the last 4 years. It does need some updating... but I would hate to see it become all Movie based. Guardian of the galaxy? Coco? If they just put some attractions in the empty buildings that would be a good enhancement.

 

[George4]

Again...I don't disagree with your perceptions at all...

I don't trust the mananagement...as they have failed to balance out the crowds in wdw miserably.

Because they haven't been willing to spend what is necessary to make each stand out.

Is started with MGM (failed concept)...it continued with an incomplete AK...now it's the decay of Epcot...

They've not done it. Which is why all this money is going toward hybrid mgm/MK movie rides...

Agreed. That's where the problem lies at this point. No disagreement here. It makes me wonder if they know something we don't (doubtful), of if they are this clueless, or if the problem is at the Board level (management trying to do the right thing, but stymied at every turn by the Board).

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Agreed. That's where the problem lies at this point. No disagreement here. It makes me wonder if they know something we don't (doubtful), of if they are this clueless, or if the problem is at the Board level (management trying to do the right thing, but stymied at every turn by the Board).

The problem is the robber baron economic realities of the letters DIS listed on the NYSE in the "fast and loose" post industrial world...

(Try to untwist that one)

 

[George4]

If Avatarland cost around $.5 billion (that's what I seem to read fairly consistently), it may not take as much money as some of us fear to bring EPCOT up to snuff. That land is beyond immersive and is really staggering to behold in many respects. Most area's of EPCOT wouldn't require that level of theming to finish them off. France ride, 2 other country rides/attractions, put at least a movie into the countries that don't have any attraction (I think that's 3), overhaul UofE (this may approach $100 million, but shouldn't), Imagination overhaul, bring back WoL and clean it up of course, overhaul Innoventions, improve Land and Living Seas seem to be the necessary improvements (at a minimum) to bring this to a full day park for all age groups. That's 12 additions, and even at $100 million each (it shouldn't come anywhere near that), you're only looking at $1.2 billion. I don't mean to make that sound like nothing, but compared to what's being invested in other parks, it isn't that far out of line at all.

Beyond this, one of the questions to look at, is are we trying to encourage people to visit all of the Disney Parks as separate vacations, or can we put the same attractions in multiple parks to save design costs and time? I enjoy a good Disneyland venture, but I'm not going overseas to go to Disney. Those rides could be duplicated here and vice-versa and have no impact on my enjoyment. That might save some cost for the company be reusing some designs in multiple places. Just don't make DL and WDW the same please.

 

[Phicinfan]

Seas: more nemo overlay
Mexico: coco overlay
China: Mulan film (overlay)
Imagination: inside out overlay
Mission space: that's a tweak but I won't include an overlay on that.


So 4...my bad.

And you might not want to believe all this nonsense...you're falling for the "new country" gag? Honestly that's like a dog peeing on an electric fence.

So the candidates are the bankrupt territory of Puerto Rico...the in crisis police state of Brazil...or the recently Euro bailed out Spain?

What don't we throw Greece and South Sudan in there as well?

Well, lets see...
Coco overlay - yep, but it is much more fitting into the Mexican pavilion than Grand Fiesta....so I don't get why you object
Sees overlay - I think it is more Dory, but yup, not great fit also not confirmed
China - Have not heard about Mulan film.....but yeah it fits. I thought you were objecting only because the IP did not fit?
Imagination is not on the board, this is wishes by some....no one I have heard has ever confirmed this, and multiple insiders have said not for any time soon.
M:S - not an overlay, but upgrade of current screens and new mission as far as I have heard

Here is what I truly believe will happen, again I am NOT an insider, I am going by all the "smoke" i have seen, and who is saying it.

I believe you will get:
Rat in France - yeah I know duh...
UK small ride - no idea what yet - although it will not be spinner or maze
GotG in UoE
Updated M:S
I think they redo the opening area and move the tombstones, and fix the spine
And I think you will get the Innovations revamp.

As for the new Pavilion - yes I think by Epcot 40th we will get ONE Pavilion - there is rumors of up to 3 but I am betting only one. Gut feel is Brazil will be it.

But yes rest will be polishing and overlays of appropriate IP(well I guess my view of appropriate as I have no issue with Coco in Mexico or Mulan in China).

 

[George4]

With the parks contributing about $3billion in annual profit to the company, spending $1-2 billion per year for the next 5 years to begin catching up should be viewed as a necessity. The first billion should go into EPCOT. I would love to see the second billion go into AK, finishing up Avatar (3rd attraction that was removed), and expanding the Asia area and maybe Africa. That would hopefully include 5-6 attractions at least plus the requisite shops and restaurants. That gives AK a serious boost to it being a 1-2 day park. That would give you 3 parks that are 1-2 days at least. Start with EPCOT though, because there is little appeal for younger kids to want to go there.

Sadly, none of this is a rumor, except in my own mind.

 

[George4]

The problem is the robber baron economic realities of the letters DIS listed on the NYSE in the "fast and loose" post industrial world...

(Try to untwist that one)

Yup, time to buy a ton of Disney stock, or unload it. Clearly, my voice has little sway at this point.

 

[dreiwhit]

Depends on who you ask. I prefer the old EPCOT rather than the new direction that appears to be a small step above Six Flags. More E-tickets, more E-tickets.

Disney shouldn't worry about capturing the thrill ride market. Have a few of them? Absolutely. However, the family has always been Disney's ticket, and that means a balance of ride types, and park types. Not four of the same thing, which are gradually becoming something that is within 90 minutes of my house and is much cheaper to visit. I don't want just a bunch of rides slapped together. EPCOT was better the old way, and I would like to see them find a way to connect the old EPCOT with the new consumer, rather than just squeeze rides that match a plush toy that can be sold. Find the balance.

I've said several times on these boards that Epcot is my family's favorite park because it is the UN-Magic Kingdom. But, if they make it more IP heavy, more thrill ride, more like MK-lite, I have to ask myself "why go to Epcot?" We already don't go to AK because there isn't enough there to justify a day of our tickets. If they radically remake Epcot, we may just start thinking about Epcot the same way.

Bring back the double decker buses. (I may have suggested that already.). Or maybe have some self driving cars shuttling people from the center of Innoventions to the American building.

Come to think of it, if you could put self-driving technology into ECVs, you could eliminate the complaints about banged up ankles. Though you might get complaints from riders about the jerkiness when the driving intelligence brakes every time someone steps in front.

Self driving vehicles on an enclosed track would work. I suggested on another post about Epcot is why not have a People Mover in Epcot? It would run throughout the entire park and have multiple stations - FW West, FW East and the east and west end of the World Showcase. It would be like the railroad at MK, a ride that is also transporation. Plus, it would let folks save their feet at the biggest park WDW has.

 

[George4]

I've said several times on these boards that Epcot is my family's favorite park because it is the UN-Magic Kingdom. But, if they make it more IP heavy, more thrill ride, more like MK-lite, I have to ask myself "why go to Epcot?" We already don't go to AK because there isn't enough there to justify a day of our tickets. If they radically remake Epcot, we may just start thinking about Epcot the same way.

I'm not advocating for thrill rides and heavy-IP attractions. I am simply talking about making more attractive to kids by adding things that they will enjoy doing so that they will want to go there. I am not an advocate for huge amounts of misplaced IP in EPCOT. Most of what advocate for doesn't require a link to IP in fact, other than an Innoventions, and that doesn't need to be done. It worked great without a link before, but WALL-E might me a nice guide through what ends up in there. I think all of EPCOT should still have an education piece, but we have to learn from what didn't work for the last 30 years also.

 

[George4]

Well, lets see...
Coco overlay - yep, but it is much more fitting into the Mexican pavilion than Grand Fiesta....so I don't get why you object
Sees overlay - I think it is more Dory, but yup, not great fit also not confirmed
China - Have not heard about Mulan film.....but yeah it fits. I thought you were objecting only because the IP did not fit?
Imagination is not on the board, this is wishes by some....no one I have heard has ever confirmed this, and multiple insiders have said not for any time soon.
M:S - not an overlay, but upgrade of current screens and new mission as far as I have heard

Here is what I truly believe will happen, again I am NOT an insider, I am going by all the "smoke" i have seen, and who is saying it.

I believe you will get:
Rat in France - yeah I know duh...
UK small ride - no idea what yet - although it will not be spinner or maze
GotG in UoE
Updated M:S
I think they redo the opening area and move the tombstones, and fix the spine
And I think you will get the Innovations revamp.

As for the new Pavilion - yes I think by Epcot 40th we will get ONE Pavilion - there is rumors of up to 3 but I am betting only one. Gut feel is Brazil will be it.

But yes rest will be polishing and overlays of appropriate IP(well I guess my view of appropriate as I have no issue with Coco in Mexico or Mulan in China).

How many times can we say overlay before Disney realizes that they haven't really improved anything of fixed the current problem?

 

[dreiwhit]

I'm not advocating for thrill rides and heavy-IP attractions. I am simply talking about making more attractive to kids by adding things that they will enjoy doing so that they will want to go there. I am not an advocate for huge amounts of misplaced IP in EPCOT. Most of what advocate for doesn't require a link to IP in fact, other than an Innoventions, and that doesn't need to be done. It worked great without a link before, but WALL-E might me a nice guide through what ends up in there. I think all of EPCOT should still have an education piece, but we have to learn from what didn't work for the last 30 years also.

I agree 100% with you George4. My comment was directed toward Disney Corp. itself and not your post. I'm still afraid they are going to load up Epcot with IP rides and make it MK-lite.

 

[George4]

I agree 100% with you George4. My comment was directed toward Disney Corp. itself and not your post. I'm still afraid they are going to load up Epcot with IP rides and make it MK-lite.

I think a lot of us have that fear based on all of the overlay "improvements" we are hearing about a lot recently.

 

[Disney & ME]

Ahh Epcot... I went in '82 as a child (I think) and wasn't a fan .. the countries were neat, I liked figment and the imagination pavilion, but I was expecting more of a mk feel... ( I really wished I would have seen Cranuim Command.. that sounds amazing) As an adult and a parent, it is my absolute favorite park. My children love it and it offers a fun way to learn about the world. The park is better suited to today's size crowds than MK. Epcot is the reason we have gone to WDW each year for the last 4 years. It does need some updating... but I would hate to see it become all Movie based. Guardian of the galaxy? Coco? If they just put some attractions in the empty buildings that would be a good enhancement.

I too went to EPCOT as a teen and enjoyed it because it was new and innovative. My parents worked for MetLife and United Technologies so we were able to go to the employee lounge in both WOL and The Seas. It was very sad to see both of those sponsorships leave which was the start of the downward spiral.
I went in 2000 with two pre-teens (9 and 11) and took them to EPCOT first before we went to the other parks to ensure they would like it, and they did. It was educational but fun. But, it was not their favorite park after we went to the others. But, for first time visitors I always recommend this strategy.
As an adult, EPCOT is one of my favorite parks, but I miss the original rides, especially the original Journey into Imagination pavilion with the great movie and ride. I remember being upset when they changed the movie to Captain EO and then when they changed the ride. But, I guess they needed to keep things new and interesting to keep people coming which is what they are trying to do again.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

If Avatarland cost around $.5 billion (that's what I seem to read fairly consistently), it may not take as much money as some of us fear to bring EPCOT up to snuff. That land is beyond immersive and is really staggering to behold in many respects. Most area's of EPCOT wouldn't require that level of theming to finish them off. France ride, 2 other country rides/attractions, put at least a movie into the countries that don't have any attraction (I think that's 3), overhaul UofE (this may approach $100 million, but shouldn't), Imagination overhaul, bring back WoL and clean it up of course, overhaul Innoventions, improve Land and Living Seas seem to be the necessary improvements (at a minimum) to bring this to a full day park for all age groups. That's 12 additions, and even at $100 million each (it shouldn't come anywhere near that), you're only looking at $1.2 billion. I don't mean to make that sound like nothing, but compared to what's being invested in other parks, it isn't that far out of line at all.

Beyond this, one of the questions to look at, is are we trying to encourage people to visit all of the Disney Parks as separate vacations, or can we put the same attractions in multiple parks to save design costs and time? I enjoy a good Disneyland venture, but I'm not going overseas to go to Disney. Those rides could be duplicated here and vice-versa and have no impact on my enjoyment. That might save some cost for the company be reusing some designs in multiple places. Just don't make DL and WDW the same please.

I have little doubt that they went massively over budget - which the management will never publically own due to stock implications.

I think avatar was more like a $600-$750 final tab. Tough for disney to work on anything for that long and not rack up that kind of a bill.

 

[rteetz]

Avatarland cost around $.5 billion

It was a bit more than that.

Overhaul of UoE will cost more than 100 million. Frozen Ever After cost $150 million.

 

[Phicinfan]

How many times can we say overlay before Disney realizes that they haven't really improved anything of fixed the current problem?

That depends on your definition of what the problem is?

I seem to be one of the few looking at all this holistically. Not sure why others don't.

Is the "problem" Epcot has not vision anymore? If so, then it can be addressed by this update...how? - Re-invent Epcot. Retool FW and make it...for lack of better Discovery world. Us IP to push the edutainment of the area - GotG can talk about energy as well as Ellen or Bill Nye, Dory or Nemo can talk protecting the oceans. Updating the whole area(just heard think tron like as one option for new FW update) to me more futuristic, and then polish and shine the rest of the areas. To me the biggest miss is updating Innovations and putting some really fun ideas in like robotics with BH6.

Is the problem capacity? Well, if we do all that is proposed(or even most) to DHS and EPCOT, plus add in Pandora....and you suddenly have real pull from MK to improve capacity and crowding all over. I do think as @lockedoutlogic calls out you still need some adds to AK other than just Pandora, and I HOPE they add a bit more to DHS once SWE and TSL and Mickey ride are complete. But lets face it....IF and again this is still all if...you add - New UoE, updated Seas, SSE, Land and M:S, redo the entrance and spine(project Tomorrow is one option just released by one insider at WDWMagic.com) and put some real items in Innovations...AND add Rat in France, Ride in UK and new Pavilion...and Epcot will be very fresh to go and spend even more time at.

 

[ucfknight]

Bring back the double decker buses. (I may have suggested that already.).

Just picturing the horror of trying to drive a double-decker bus around World Showcase through the wall-to-wall crowds of a narrower promenade on a Saturday during Food & Wine....

 

[bladiator]

It was a bit more than that.

Overhaul of UoE will cost more than 100 million. Frozen Ever After cost $150 million.

I know this is probably just to be expected, but it still blows my mind to even think about. Did they put a gold plated liner on all the scenery before the painted it white like snow? How do you blow through $150 million unless you're paying top tier imagineers to sit around picking their nose for months?

How can you put out blockbuster movies for $150 million and destroy small cities for one big cinematic shot, and you spend the exact same amount on redoing a ride that already exists???? (I'm a cheapo so I guess I'll never know).

 

[rteetz]

I know this is probably just to be expected, but it still blows my mind to even think about. Did they put a gold plated liner on all the scenery before the painted it white like snow? How do you blow through $150 million unless you're paying top tier imagineers to sit around picking their nose for months?

How can you put out blockbuster movies for $150 million and destroy small cities for one big cinematic shot, and you spend the exact same amount on redoing a ride that already exists???? (I'm a cheapo so I guess I'll never know).

Disney has a budget problem...