"Ladies and Gentlemen" becoming an outdated term?

[kaytieeldr]

You've got to be kidding me. "Advised otherwise?" Advised by whom? Who makes the rules?

Oops. I thought it was obvious to reasonable people.

Refer to everyone as "they" or " them" until/unless advised otherwise by the person to whom you are referring, or by someone who is knowledgeable.

 

[PollyannaMom]

Yes, we do . Leave out the spaces :: yes ::

Thanks!

 

[sam_gordon]

I no longer use "ladies and gentlemen" in the classroom. Not only does it not include my non-binary students (and yes, I too have multiple non-binary as well as trans students in my tiny school) and those who just may not relate to "being a lady" or "being a gentleman" but it implies that I have different expectations of those two groups of students. I do not. Changing my language to "musicians" or "friends" or "students" or "y'all" or to whatever it is has NOT resulted in any of my students behaving with less manners or consideration. But if it has made even one student who felt excluded by my previous language feel more included, I consider it a change worth making.

So let's see...

Teacher A at the beginning of class says "OK, settle down, let's all act like ladies and gentlemen".
Teacher B at the beginning of class says "OK, settle down, let's all act like musicians." Or "let's all act like friends". Or "Let's all act like students".

Those four phrases all mean the same thing? What does a musician act like? A friend?

 

[sam_gordon]

You are an individual. The LGBTQ+ community, however small, is a community. Changing a greeting to cater to an individual is unreasonable. Changing to include 1%, 5%, 10%, whatever of the population, while annoying to some, makes sense.

That's half the population of Mississippi, greater than Hawaii or Vermont or Wyoming.

But don't LGBTQ still identify as male or female? We're only talking about those in the '+', right? And what if there's only a single individual in a school or class? Should the teacher then change their greeting?

 

[luvsJack]

So by yall’s suggestion, if I have a student and a parent in my office (happens two or three times a day) and I am speaking to the parent, I should say “they need to . . .” Until one or the other tells me to use he or she. Just in case that particular student is one of the .05% (going by the statistic someone posted up thread).

So what if the student is offended that I didn’t know they go by he or she? Since he and she is the vast majority, wouldn’t it be more likely for the offense to come from that?

 

[luvsJack]

Also, on the beating that “act like a lady” has gotten here—I have been told from a young age it just means to be polite, have grace, and to be kind.

What it does not mean is that a girl can’t run and play, get muddy, ride horses, wear pants or shorts, work on cars, build things or whatever she wants to do in this world.

It doesn’t mean she can’t wear what she wants. But it can mean that she dresses in a way that everything is sufficiently covered. And if she is wearing a dress, sit in a way that nothing underneath shows.

And most of all it doesn’t mean she can’t speak her mind, stand up for herself and/or what she believes in. And if she is dating age, it certainly doesn’t mean she can’t hurt someone’s feelings if she feels she is being manipulated to do something she doesn’t want to do.

A gentleman is just a well mannered boy that wouldn’t think of trying to manipulate a girl. And he is also kind and polite. And he can do all things that are “traditionally” female in nature. He can cook, sew, dance, decorate, or whatever he wants to do in this world.

Way too much is read into these two words.

 

[BearFamily]

So let's see...

Teacher A at the beginning of class says "OK, settle down, let's all act like ladies and gentlemen".
Teacher B at the beginning of class says "OK, settle down, let's all act like musicians." Or "let's all act like friends". Or "Let's all act like students".

Those four phrases all mean the same thing? What does a musician act like? A friend?

Well, to start with, I never instructed students to act like ladies and gentlemen to begin with, I just addressed them in that way. “Ladies and gentlemen, I need you to do X”. But I understand that if you follow my logic, I was implicitly instructing them to behave that way.

To answer your question, They don’t mean the same thing, and would be used in different circumstances.

“Musicians” I use to address my high school band students. “Musicians, we are going to head downstairs to the stage. Please bring a stand with you and help the percussionists as needed.” What does a musician act like? In my classroom and in the professional world, behaving like a musician means being prepared for and actively attentive during rehearsal. It means having a pencil and marking your music, having supplies and taking good care of your instrument. Being a musician means sitting with healthy posture and listening quietly while other sections are working. It means supporting the other members of your section and working well as a team. Etc, etc, etc. When I call them “musicians” in high school, they know what those expectations are, and they’re much more useful to me than “ladylike or gentleman like” behavior. When I call them “musicians” in middle school, it’s aspirational, as part of teaching them those expectations.

“Friends” is very, very widely used in our elementary school instead of boys and girls. Again, not explicitly instructing them to act like friends, but addressing them that way. “Friends, we need to move to the other side of the hallway to let this class go by.Friends, now is the time to get a drink of water before PE.” I usually only use it when working with those younger students, as it’s what they’re used to hearing. In that building, they put a huge emphasis on building community, and expecting students to behave as friends would is part of that. What does behaving like a friend look like? Friends share. Friends take care of each other. Friends are honest and kind. Friends respect other people’s bodies and feelings. Again, expectations that are explicitly taught.

Does that help clear up how some of those terms could be both more inclusive and more useful? There are a couple of science teachers who feel very strongly about addressing their students as “scientists”. Others who prefer “scholars” for older students. Lots of examples.

 

[sam_gordon]

Well, to start with, I never instructed students to act like ladies and gentlemen to begin with, I just addressed them in that way. “Ladies and gentlemen, I need you to do X”. But I understand that if you follow my logic, I was implicitly instructing them to behave that way.

To answer your question, They don’t mean the same thing, and would be used in different circumstances.

“Musicians” I use to address my high school band students. “Musicians, we are going to head downstairs to the stage. Please bring a stand with you and help the percussionists as needed.” What does a musician act like? In my classroom and in the professional world, behaving like a musician means being prepared for and actively attentive during rehearsal. It means having a pencil and marking your music, having supplies and taking good care of your instrument. Being a musician means sitting with healthy posture and listening quietly while other sections are working. It means supporting the other members of your section and working well as a team. Etc, etc, etc. When I call them “musicians” in high school, they know what those expectations are, and they’re much more useful to me than “ladylike or gentleman like” behavior. When I call them “musicians” in middle school, it’s aspirational, as part of teaching them those expectations.

“Friends” is very, very widely used in our elementary school instead of boys and girls. Again, not explicitly instructing them to act like friends, but addressing them that way. “Friends, we need to move to the other side of the hallway to let this class go by.Friends, now is the time to get a drink of water before PE.” I usually only use it when working with those younger students, as it’s what they’re used to hearing. In that building, they put a huge emphasis on building community, and expecting students to behave as friends would is part of that. What does behaving like a friend look like? Friends share. Friends take care of each other. Friends are honest and kind. Friends respect other people’s bodies and feelings. Again, expectations that are explicitly taught.

Does that help clear up how some of those terms could be both more inclusive and more useful? There are a couple of science teachers who feel very strongly about addressing their students as “scientists”. Others who prefer “scholars” for older students. Lots of examples.

PP, a teacher, said she tells her class they should "act like ladies and gentlemen". I took that to mean she said the statement (or something similar) I posted. Saying "act like musicians" or "act like scientists" *I* don't think mean the same thing. *I* don't have a problem with teachers calling students musicians, scientists, friends, bananas, trees, OR "ladies and gentlemen". And I wonder how many people actually have a problem with being addressed as "ladies and gentlemen".

 

[skyblue17]

PP, a teacher, said she tells her class they should "act like ladies and gentlemen". I took that to mean she said the statement (or something similar) I posted. Saying "act like musicians" or "act like scientists" *I* don't think mean the same thing. *I* don't have a problem with teachers calling students musicians, scientists, friends, bananas, trees, OR "ladies and gentlemen". And I wonder how many people actually have a problem with being addressed as "ladies and gentlemen".

But why choose ladies and gentlemen when there are SO MANY other words that can accurately describe a gathering of people that you know applies to everyone in that group? A gathering of people who plays instruments are musicians. A gathering of children ready to learn are students. A gathering of people hanging out socially are friends. You can easily be more specific and sometimes even more creative with how you address people, and you can do so knowing that everyone you're addressing is included. It doesn't mean anyone in that group would be offended if you DID use a term that doesn't apply to everyone, but when given the option, why wouldn't you opt for something that you know represents everyone you're talking to?

 

[soccerdad72]

So by yall’s suggestion, if I have a student and a parent in my office (happens two or three times a day) and I am speaking to the parent, I should say “they need to . . .” Until one or the other tells me to use he or she. Just in case that particular student is one of the .05% (going by the statistic someone posted up thread).

So what if the student is offended that I didn’t know they go by he or she? Since he and she is the vast majority, wouldn’t it be more likely for the offense to come from that?

You could ask the student what their preferred pronouns were. At my son's freshman orientation session, all the group leaders introduced themselves with their name, along with their preferred pronouns. Every one of them were 'she/her/hers' and 'he/him/his', but that wasn't the point of the introduction.

 

[L&Lfan]

So is hir pronounced differently than her?

 

[luvsJack]

You could ask the student what their preferred pronouns were. At my son's freshman orientation session, all the group leaders introduced themselves with their name, along with their preferred pronouns. Every one of them were 'she/her/hers' and 'he/him/his', but that wasn't the point of the introduction.

Yeah, I could. Probably not. Again, how do I know its not going to offend some of them that think I should be able to tell? There is no way to guarantee its not going to offend someone!

Its different when someone starts an introduction with "I prefer he/she/ze" in a group than when someone asks something directly that a student thinks one should know.

A straight, biologically male student that looks like a female can get very angry if called "she" or if someone acts like they don't know he is a he. Not seeing the benefit here of adding another reason for him or someone like him to get angry. Or how about the straight, biologically female student who struggles with self esteem and is sometimes mistaken for a male. How is hurting her feelings by asking her that question going to help?

If I am only talking to the student, I use their name. If I have to call another department for the student, I use "student" and their name. So not something I battle daily anyway, but there are instances that a pronoun is needed.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

You could ask the student what their preferred pronouns were. At my son's freshman orientation session, all the group leaders introduced themselves with their name, along with their preferred pronouns. Every one of them were 'she/her/hers' and 'he/him/his', but that wasn't the point of the introduction.

I'm a classroom or some other isolated situation it could be more natural I guess.

However the initial person said everyone. IRL maybe some can do that for everyone they meet but in the majority of situations I can personally think of it would come off as the strangest thing possible and would earn a "huh?" to either ask if you want to be called _____ or to just keep referring to a person by they or them and waiting for a correction that may never come because of either how it is said in a sentence or someone is being polite.

Like I'm trying to picture asking the vendor who took my husband and I to a baseball game who I had never met before "what is your preferred pronoun?" as he sits down, or when he bought up food and drink.

Saying 'they' or 'them' is used often enough in our language but is only recently been used in the way the PP and this thread has been discussing.

Like I said I have zero issues with respecting how someone wishes to be called. I think that goes way further than just a pronoun used to refer to how someone identifies themselves it's for nicknames, it's for titles, etc. However, I'm not seeing the practical nature of referring to everyone as 'they' or 'them' hoping they'll correct me if I'm wrong or making an assumption about their personal life if they don't correct me. Or asking every person how they wished to be addressed but mean he she they etc

 

[Carol_]

tl;dr

 

[LSUmiss]

Yeah, I could. Probably not. Again, how do I know its not going to offend some of them that think I should be able to tell? There is no way to guarantee its not going to offend someone!

Its different when someone starts an introduction with "I prefer he/she/ze" in a group than when someone asks something directly that a student thinks one should know.

A straight, biologically male student that looks like a female can get very angry if called "she" or if someone acts like they don't know he is a he. Not seeing the benefit here of adding another reason for him or someone like him to get angry. Or how about the straight, biologically female student who struggles with self esteem and is sometimes mistaken for a male. How is hurting her feelings by asking her that question going to help?

If I am only talking to the student, I use their name. If I have to call another department for the student, I use "student" and their name. So not something I battle daily anyway, but there are instances that a pronoun is needed.

Ok I’m all about being inclusive & don't have a problem with the change to “everyone”, but when you need an Excel spreadsheet to keep up with the possibility of pronouns, it really does start to seem just ridiculous. My opinion is if you want ppl to take you seriously then don’t get bogged down with this level of tediousness.

ETA: I was also taught that it is rude to refer to someone as a pronoun in front of the person. If you’re in the person’s presence, it’s more polite to use his/her/other’s name. If speaking directly to the person, you would use you/your which I think is still universal (for now ).

 

[wvjules]

I'm amazed, well I guess I shouldn't be, at the amount of closed-mindedness on this thread. What is wrong with just saying "everyone". Why does this bother you so?

I'm off the mindset that inclusion is good and being PC isn't a bad thing. What's the harm in trying to not be offensive to people?

BTW, I'm only on page 5. I can't imagine how much worse the bigoted-ness is going to get over the next 11 pages.

 

[okeydokey]

Change is hard for some, I get it. A few years down the road though, we will wonder what all the fuss is about.

It really is no big deal in the end and I don't find it difficult to just be kind to people and address them how they wish to be addressed.

 

[sam_gordon]

I'm amazed, well I guess I shouldn't be, at the amount of closed-mindedness on this thread. What is wrong with just saying "everyone". Why does this bother you so?

I'm off the mindset that inclusion is good and being PC isn't a bad thing. What's the harm in trying to not be offensive to people?

BTW, I'm only on page 5. I can't imagine how much worse the bigoted-ness is going to get over the next 11 pages.

I don't think anyone is bothered by folks saying "anyone". I know I'm not. And no one is saying "ladies and gentlemen" has to be used. Some of us just find it hard to believe that "ladies and gentlemen" is not only not inclusive enough but offensive to some. I guess you could say the same about "boys and girls".

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Change is hard for some, I get it. A few years down the road though, we will wonder what all the fuss is about.

It really is no big deal in the end and I don't find it difficult to just be kind to people and address them how they wish to be addressed.

I think it's different if you blatantly refuse to refer to someone as how they wish to be but that's the case with many different situations (nicknames, titles, married names, pronouns, etc). If you tell someone "I wish to be referred to as _____" and that person refuses to I'm not sure that type of person will change over time.

What I do think will change over time will be the familiarity with using different ways of referring to an individual. I think it will be more than a few years (I'm guessing decades given how quickly the world changes these days).

 

[disney junky]

Not obsolete in my circles.....