Need to vent! School Days Missed

[pacrosby]

Interesting. You know the solar system about which kids are learning now is different from the solar system about which we learned, right? Different number of planets, and there's more information available about it now. Heck, there's more information today about the solar system than there was five years ago - so today's fifth-grader is learning different and more information than today's high school junior did six years ago! And "our" solar system contained a different number of planets than the one about which our parents/grandparents were taught - and we, too, had more information than they did. That's true of a LOT of science. History too; and geography - world geography moreso than U.S. geography, but still...

Yes of course I do LOL Where did I say that they presented the exact same information word for word, year after year? I said they did a UNIT on the solar system in the Spring of 3rd grade and so therefore, at that time of year, I could predict that the homework would involve a related project. What exactly are you finding fault with? For cryin' out loud. What in heaven's name is going on here with you people??????? If it wasn't all so darn amusing I think I'd be crying out of frustration LOL

 

[Halbleib1]

That is so sad that position exists. My niece was a 1' 4" baby. My best friends was a tad bigger. NICU staff are incredible. I was hoping that there was some other purpose for a nicu guard. Thanks for the verification, and for what you do for your community too.

Unfortunately I think this is the norm at the majority of the hospitals around the country now. I just gave birth three weeks ago and thank goodness my daughter did not require the NICU but the maternity ward had a guard posted outside of the doors to let you in to be sure no one got in or out that shouldn't. All babies also had on security tags to be sure they were not taken as well. When I gave birth to my son at a different hospital 6 years ago he was in the NICU for 10 days and in order to get in you had to call on the intercom in order for them to unlock the door. The reg. maternity ward on the other hand did not have any guards or security like this however the babies did have security tags on.

 

[turtlechick6]

We have pay levels basically for subs. If you have a teaching certificate you get paid more so that is for the retired teachers or student teachers. Then you get paid a bit more if you have any sort of college degree (that was me), then you paid the lowest if you have no degree or teaching certificate.

I can tell you I was called everyday for a job. Every day. I worked the whole county so that was a lot of middle and high schools. I picked and choosed which ones I would go to based on closeness to my house and the niceness of the school. I was sought out often in spite of my lack of teaching knowledge because I showed up when I said I would which was pretty much all that was asked of me.

I know that other states and districts handle subs differently and that is great, but I just wanted to point out that in our system we are glorified babysitters. Not much gets done. They do try to put the more qualified subs in for longer vacancies like maternity leave and such.

 

[spacemountainmom]

I am going to have to argue with the person that said students still recieve instruction when the teacher is out from the sub. I was a sub for middle and high school for two years. I can tell you I pretty much never taught a thing. I was not even asked to. I was told to hand out worksheets and dittos, put on movies, etc. Most of the time I was just crowd control. That was all the teachers really expected of me. I am just there to make sure kids don't skip, cause fights, trash the classroom etc.

So I beg to differ that they still learn something those days. They really didn't. Most kids never even did the dittos that were handed out.

Also just to clarify to be a sub in my state all you must have is a high school degree! I did not have a teaching degree. I was not a qualified teacher. I was college educated and therefore I could help the students a little bit but I had zero teaching knowledge. In my state people that can't work regular jobs do subbing because you can make your own hours and it is easy work for alright pay. The students don't learn anything on sub day.

Amen!!! This is generally the case in my school. In my state, subs are only required to have a college degree. Let me tell you about the second week of school when the 7th grade science teacher was out. The poor sub was trying to deal with a completely out of control class. I walked in and the poor guy begged me to help him get the class under control. I stayed and helped him get the kids settled down, but had to get back to my normal duties so I couldn't stay the entire period.

Two weeks later, I am walking past an 8th grade Lang Arts classroom and notice complete chaos. This is not a normal happening in this teacher's room so I stop and poke my head in. Kids are literally bouncing off the walls and the poor sub is pretty much cowering in the corner. She begs me for help, I tell her that I can't stay, but I will get someone. I managed to get the kids back in their seats and somewhat quieter and head to the office for some help. That sub walked out that day vowing never to come back. Can't say that I blame her.

Lest you think I work in some crummy school and district, it is a pretty nice suburban district with quality schools. However, there is a huge discipline problem at this building. There really aren't any true consequences for any bad behavior. The same kids cause most of the problems and they never are really dealt with. The new principal has promised to remove some of the bad ones, but I am not holding my breath. Many of the really bad ones attend this school under open enrollment. The funding follows the child - lose the child, lose their funding.

My dd15 attended this school prior to my working there and some days I wonder how the heck she ever got through. I will give a great deal of credit to most of the teachers. They are outstanding and do the very best they can without any backup in discipline from the administration. I've been told by several coworkers that discipline really went downhill in the last few years due to some staffing changes. My ds11 now attends and thankfully I can be in constant contact with his teachers and know everything that is going on.

All I can say is that in my experience (as a student, parent and employee of a middle school) has shown me that a day with a sub is pretty much a wasted day in middle and high school. Subs are there to prevent the kids from killing each other and burning down the school. This is why it disturbs me so much when teachers are out of the class at so many mandated meetings.

 

[Leajess99]

5 - 7 is different than K-5. And obviously I don't mean every homework assignment is 'exactly' the same (well, obvioulsy it's not really that obvious, huh?).

And even if I did why should I be concerned that the math fact sheet with apples on it is the exact same math fact sheet with apples on it from 2 yrs ago? It's math. Or if a solar system project my daughter did in the Spring of 3rd grade comes up again in the spring of 3rd grade for my son? The solar system is studied in 3rd grade. All kids learn about the solar system (I hope!). The same 'child' isn't doing the same homework!

Ugh LOL

Okay, I don't know the age difference in your children but I know them in mine. If one did the solar system in 3rd grade than it would need to be different for my next one seeing as Pluto is no longer considered a planet. Thinsg change in Science and kids change as well. That is why this school district has changed things in how it is presented and what programs/books they use. I do hate Everyday mathmatics and have no problems sharing that opinion with everyone including the teachers. Math facts, well those don't change but sometimes the papers need to change or the way they are taught. At the school my youngest is now in they have a whole different approach to them. It is a better way for the kids to learn and they are verbally tested on the Math facts as well as on paper.

I have one child who was in preschool at the school for 2.5 years and they repeated what they had done the year before. My youngest was there for speech and she would get so bored doing the same thing. I have a friend whose children are 2 grades apart and the youngest does not get the same worksheets that the older one got.

 

[Leajess99]

I am going to have to argue with the person that said students still recieve instruction when the teacher is out from the sub. I was a sub for middle and high school for two years. I can tell you I pretty much never taught a thing. I was not even asked to. I was told to hand out worksheets and dittos, put on movies, etc. Most of the time I was just crowd control. That was all the teachers really expected of me. I am just there to make sure kids don't skip, cause fights, trash the classroom etc.

So I beg to differ that they still learn something those days. They really didn't. Most kids never even did the dittos that were handed out.

Also just to clarify to be a sub in my state all you must have is a high school degree! I did not have a teaching degree. I was not a qualified teacher. I was college educated and therefore I could help the students a little bit but I had zero teaching knowledge. In my state people that can't work regular jobs do subbing because you can make your own hours and it is easy work for alright pay. The students don't learn anything on sub day.

Wow, here you have to have at least 60 semester hours in order to be a substitute. The majority of the subs here do teach the class but our schools also have a designated sub that works daily at that specific school. Also if a teacher will be out for an extended amount of time (surgery, maternity leave, etc) than they have the sub come in and get to know the kids and what needs to happen.

 

[pacrosby]

Okay, I don't know the age difference in your children but I know them in mine. If one did the solar system in 3rd grade than it would need to be different for my next one seeing as Pluto is no longer considered a planet. Thinsg change in Science and kids change as well. That is why this school district has changed things in how it is presented and what programs/books they use. I do hate Everyday mathmatics and have no problems sharing that opinion with everyone including the teachers. Math facts, well those don't change but sometimes the papers need to change or the way they are taught. At the school my youngest is now in they have a whole different approach to them. It is a better way for the kids to learn and they are verbally tested on the Math facts as well as on paper.

I have one child who was in preschool at the school for 2.5 years and they repeated what they had done the year before. My youngest was there for speech and she would get so bored doing the same thing. I have a friend whose children are 2 grades apart and the youngest does not get the same worksheets that the older one got.

My kids are all 2 yrs apart in school - 1st, 3rd and 5th (another will be in K next year). I've been sitting here reading this whole thread to my husband and he's been reeling. When I came to your post he said................."what? are bananas more relevant in 2010 than 2008?"

As far as changing the 'way' these basics are taught I have mixed emotions. There have been lots of new fangled ways of teaching reading and math over the years that have come and gone (that wondrous whole language approach is the first one that comes to mind). Many were eventually ditched because it was ultimately determined the kids were better off the old way. How many kids were ultimately hurt by those "experiments"? Call me old fashioned but I do believe in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

 

[surfgirl]

It's called d-i-c-u-s-s-i-o-n

a what ???

 

[Queen2PrincessG]

I think what this persone was trying to say is that she feels blessed to have her children.... as do I. I know many people who cannot have children, and I'm sure they would consider it a luxury if they could.

I guess I would say gift, not luxury. Luxury implies a completely different idea.

 

[fairydust72]

Wow I read this entire thread and I can't believe the picking apart and ganging up that's going on.I can see where the problem with kids bullying stems from.

I have never taken my kids out for vacation but I probably will in the next couple of years. My district allows 5 excused vacation days a year.I am so thankful I dont live where some of you other people live..I have friends who have taken their kids out for vacation in my district and it has gone very smooth. My school does very well in rankings, test scores etc.,


My DD has a chronic condition that causes her to miss a lot of school. We now have a 504 plan in place but before diagnosis she had missed about 40 days of school. Not all at once but a day here , a day there. We never were harassed by the district and the teacher was more than helpful and understanding. What kind of attitude would I have gotten that year before my DD was diagnosed? We were new to the district and they didn't know us from Adam. Would some of these teachers and districts made her repeat the grade because of these excessive absences out of our control? We didn't find out what the condition was until April of that 1st year and thankfully she is in remission and is now protected by a 504.

I know this is not the same scenario as taking a vacation but I would like to know how this would have been addressed in some of the more rigid school districts. Would your district take the time to listen and understand with a case like this or would it be met with an attitude? ANd no I didn't have 30 or 40 doctors notes either.

I plan on taking my kids to Disney at the Christmas season hopefully in the next couple of years. I would like to go once at the time with my kids. After watching my child suffer with a chronic illness and watching the treatments that she has been given(sometimes as bad or worse than the disease) nothing would stop me.

I know this thread is probably closing very soon as it has been taking a really ugly turn. I will agree to disagree with some of these more rigid opinions and be thankful I live where I do.

As for the repeating of the same work year after year-give me a break. My younger DD is now in 4th and I can see we are doing the same projects my daughter did a few years ago. That is not unreasonable.Not everything exactly but we're definately doing the same math, book reports etc.

Pacrosby I guess I am on your "side". LOL I feel like I am reading things from my DD's middle school friends. Twenty-something pages on "I'm the better parent, I'm in a better district, My child's education is more important to me than yours is " etc. etc.

Oh well, I'm sure this thread will be closed shortly.

 

[mommyof2princesses]

WOW! Did this thread go crazy! There are many varying opinions about taking kids out of school for vacation. Too bad it gets so many people worked up!

As a teacher it drove me nuts that parents took kids out of school for vacation...not because they would fall behind, but because I couldn't do the same! What bothered me more were the parents who kept their kids home because their kid just didn't want to go to school that day or the parent just didn't want to get up and get their kid to school. It was work, but I always took my time to catch the students up. I had a student miss a month of school to go to Mexico for a family emergency. She fell behind, but she worked hard and caught up in no time!

When I stopped teaching and became a sahm we started pulling dd out for Disney trips. She would miss 1 week of school for Disney. We DID make it educational. She loves Epcot and really gets into the world showcase and innoventions. She even did swam in the tank in Epcot which was awesome since she plans on becoming a marine biologist! And she did Math in the room during our nap break! Our school system in NC was a good one, but did not challenge her so really she did learn more in that one week that she would at school.

We still go during the school year, but we homeschool now so the principal always approved the trip!

Oh, there may by typos!

 

[Scurvy]

I know this is not the same scenario as taking a vacation but I would like to know how this would have been addressed in some of the more rigid school districts. Would your district take the time to listen and understand with a case like this or would it be met with an attitude? ANd no I didn't have 30 or 40 doctors notes either.

(snipped)

I know this thread is probably closing very soon as it has been taking a really ugly turn. I will agree to disagree with some of these more rigid opinions and be thankful I live where I do.

In my district, with that many absences you definitely would have been required to appear in court. That wasn't always the case here, but after one year where several siblings were found dead from neglect after missing quite a bit of school, the system became much more proactive about policing absences. Without a doctor's note, many of your child's absences would have been considered unexcused. I have a friend whose child was chronically ill a couple of years ago and she missed around 40 days. She really had to fight and get the doctor involved so the child could go on to the next grade. If she'd had notes for all the absences it wouldn't have been a problem; she would have passed easily as long as her grades were good enough.

I personally do not have rigid opinions about absences. My belief is that a student's absences should not determine whether they pass or fail, but that the grades alone should determine that. I do feel that the teacher should not be exppected to do extra work because you (general you) chose to time your vacation for when school was in session. I have taken my child out of school for trips before and the only reason I wouldn't any longer is because I think he'd miss too much instruction (not to mention things like labs and other projects) now that he's in high school. However, many parents don't consider how much instruction will be missed when their child is out for a trip. They also expect the teacher to somehow make up all the instruction the child missed, which I think is unfair to the teacher.

I am very rigid when it comes to working within the rules of your given school district. I think it's completely unacceptable to knowingly violate the rules and then "make a scene" when your child is subjected to the consequences for breaking those rules. It's unfair to the child, in my opinion, to put them in the middle of that battle. I think it's incredibly foolish and irresponsible to make the decision to take the child out for a trip without becoming familiar with the policies and really considering what consequences the child will have to face as a result of your decision. If you and your child are making an informed decision and are fully prepared to deal with the consequences of that decision, then there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[heatherwillmom]

The students can still receive instruction if the teacher is not there, from a substitute. The students can not receive instruction when they are not in the classroom. It is possible for a teacher to have a substitute teach in her place; it is not possible for a student to have a substitute learn in his place.

That's one reason teachers have to prepare their lesson plans several weeks ahead of time - so the substitute will know what they are supposed to be doing. Ideally the teacher will also alter the plans as they have to change the schedule based on the students needing more or less time than anticipated on the different lessons. If instruction isn't taking place when the teacher is out, that's a separate issue, and is a problem with the substitute or the plans that the teacher left. In essence, teachers are interchangeable. Any teacher can present the information to the students. Students are not interchangeable. Each one has to learn for his or her self. It is legally required that a teacher be present in the classroom, but not that a specific teacher be present. On the other hand, each specific student is legally required to be in school.

Subsitute teachers are basically baby-sitters. They get paid very little & put forth no effort. They usually either hand out a work sheet or let the kids watch movies. Our kids, who are in high school now, frequently have subsitute teachers the last day or two before a scheduled school break because some of the teachers have taken off early for vacation.

 

[heatherwillmom]

You realize this is just your experience, right? At my school, the subs we use the most are retired teachers, and one was even a headmaster as well. Not only can they follow a lesson plan when I have to be out, they often add in their own teaching ideas, and we certainly encourage that. Crowd control may be all that is done at some schools, especially large high schools, but not at my school.

There is a subsitute teacher at a local middle school who was "forced to retire" from high school due to making lewd remarks to high school kids. yeah, he is a retired teacher

 

[Scurvy]

Subsitute teachers are basically baby-sitters. They get paid very little & put forth no effort. They usually either hand out a work sheet or let the kids watch movies. Our kids, who are in high school now, frequently have subsitute teachers the last day or two before a scheduled school break because some of the teachers have taken off early for vacation.

There is a subsitute teacher at a local middle school who was "forced to retire" from high school due to making lewd remarks to high school kids. yeah, he is a retired teacher

Well, as I said, if instruction isn't taking place then that's a seperate issue from the teacher being out. If a system doesn't bring in qualified substitutes, that's a problem. That hasn't been the case in the systems I've been involved with. I'd have a real problem with the retired teacher you mentioned still being involved in the school system in any capacity. He has no business still working with students. I can't imagine parents here putting up with that; they would almost certainly protest and make sure it was publicized until he was no longer being called to substitute.

 

[sam_gordon]

I know how it was meant to be read.

Not to jump in the middle here, but this is a good lesson for everyone who posts on ANY message board... not everyone will read a post the way the writer intended. You can't read inflection. Emoticon's sometimes help, but not every time. What one poster meant to be funny or tongue in cheek, another poster might read it as insulting.

Just something to keep in mind.

 

[fairydust72]

In my district, with that many absences you definitely would have been required to appear in court. Without a doctor's note, many of your child's absences would have been considered unexcused. I have a friend whose child was chronically ill a couple of years ago and she missed around 40 days. She really had to fight and get the doctor involved so the child could go on to the next grade. If she'd had notes for all the absences it wouldn't have been a problem; she would have passed easily as long as her grades were good enough


It's so sad that it has come to this. I honestly see both sides. While my DD was sick the stress and worry and upset was horrible. To have to go to court on top of that would have been enough to make me crack.

On the other hand I have an acquaintance that doesnt make her DD go to school if she's tired or just doesnt want to get up. The school allowed that child (high school age) to miss well over 40 days last year , be late chronically etc with no consequence. And she is still doing it this year. No illness going on. Especially on Mondays. Just doesnt want to go.

I dont agree with this at all. It seems a few rotten apples definately spoil the bunch in this case.Because of people who abuse the policy , people like your friend have to fight to get their children to move on to the next grade when they have a legitimate reason out of their control.

I honestly dont have an answer.

 

[heatherwillmom]

go for it. You seem to have plenty of time on your hands since you have time to post on this thread so much but can't go to school board or educational meetings.

Yep, there are typos, but when I get all high and mighty and s-p-e-l-l something out, I'm d*mn sure I'm right!

 

[princessmom29]

There is a subsitute teacher at a local middle school who was "forced to retire" from high school due to making lewd remarks to high school kids. yeah, he is a retired teacher

That is ONE individual. ONE. You cannot base what all subs do are do not do on ONE person. In our district that NEVER would have happened. I don't know why it is so hard to believe that there are actually qualified subs out there that actually teach children?? I can assure you that they really do exist, and at least in my school, are the rule rather than the exception.

 

[heatherwillmom]

Stop quoting my posts and taking my words out of context and perhaps I will go away. At this point in the conversation you have no one to blame but yourselves. If I bug you that much.....hit the ignore button

I actually reread this entire thread from the point at which I entered the discussion (just to make sure I was remembering what I had written correctly) and, NO, I have not 'repeated' myself. It's called d-i-s-c-u-s-s-i-o-n and I just happen to enjoy a good discussion now and again. Perhaps you need to reread as well? Every comment you so cleverly (?) took out of context above was part of a response to questions and comments that others directed to me. (i.e. my pointing out that MA was ranked 2nd in the country was in response to statements by others that suggested my school district must be 'lax' and subpar with regards to it's academic standards and curriculum).

Apparently you are also one who has not been schooled in the art of discussion. Are you a product of our public school system? Case closed.



btw: some of the comments you attributed to 'me' I never even addressed. The majority of the others? Gross misquotes. I'd say that speaks for itself.

edited due to spelling error: "is that better?"

I think it's funny to criticize someone else's education while making spelling errors