New Four Seasons Timeshare on Disney Property and Value Oriented West Side

[crazy4wdw]

I am going to merge this thread with the initial thread on the Four Seasons Development so we'll have all of the discussion in one place.

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

The only way they would have voting rights is if they owned the land, hence its a good bet the that portion is being sold.

That's not correct. Please think about it.

Voting rights are a function of residency, not ownership. If you live in an apartment in New York City, you would vote in New York City. But I could own that apartment building and the ground on which it sits, but I wouldn't be allowed to vote in New York City if my primary residence is in Illinois. (I don't really own any apartment buildings in New York City.)

Yes, the Four Seasons site has been de-annexed from the Reedy Creek Improvement District (RCID) because there will homes which people could use as the their primary residences. But right now we don't know if those homes will be built on leased property or fee-simple property, or if the homes themselves will be a long-term leases (like DVC) or owned outright.

 

[DancingBear]

Yes, the Four Seasons site has been de-annexed from the Reedy Creek Improvement District (RCID) because there will homes which people could use as the their primary residences. But right now we don't know if those homes will be built on leased property or fee-simple property, or if the homes themselves will be a long-term leases (like DVC) or owned outright.

But there's really no effective difference as far as whether that land is "gone" from WDW, at least in our lifetimes.

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

But there's really no effective difference as far as whether that land is "gone" from WDW, at least in our lifetimes.

Yes. The land will be developed with Four Seasons-branded projects, not with Disney-branded projects.

But there is still an open question of the degree to which the Four Seasons development will be "part" of Walt Disney World. Will it be along the lines of the WDW Swan & Dolphin complex -- a development that's integrated with WDW transportation and which provides more dining options to WDW resort guests. Or will it be more like a higher-end version of something along the lines Marriott's Orlando World Center or the Bonnet Creek Resort -- nearby, but a completely separate entity from Walt Disney World?

Will the Four Seasons development be marketed as "within Walt Disney World" -- or has WDW simply lost 900 acres? In the former case, Disney will have influence (even if RCID does not govern the property). In the latter case, Disney has simply turned the land into money.

I'm not as negative about the Four Seasons announcement as some people here. I see a potential upside. We'll have new dining an shopping choices (presumably very good ones) within the Four Seasons development. Also, if Disney wants the guest from Four Seasons to spend money at Disney restaurants, shops, and attractions, then Disney will have to provide the high quality that Four Seasons guests expect and demand -- in which case we might all benefit.

Finally, if Disney wants to make money from unused and underused property at WDW, then I'm glad it's not for something like an industrial complex or a "Lake Buena Vista Auto Mall." The Four Seasons development will undoubtedly be of the highest quality and will further make Central Florida into more than just a place where parents take their little kids to see Mickey.

 

[raidermatt]

You're right about the residency thing. That's not what's being reported (no, not just by AV), but its possible.

But I think its a pretty big stretch to think Four Seasons will build a residence club without owning the land, or at the least having a 99+ year lease.

I'm not as negative about the Four Seasons announcement as some people here. I see a potential upside. We'll have new dining an shopping choices (presumably very good ones) within the Four Seasons development. Also, if Disney wants the guest from Four Seasons to spend money at Disney restaurants, shops, and attractions, then Disney will have to provide the high quality that Four Seasons guests expect and demand -- in which case we might all benefit.

That gets back to the basic point though, which is Disney is, or at least should be, capable of providing some high quality options of its own. I can't even begin to agree with Disney brininging in Four Seasons as a way to force themselves to raise their own bar. What's more, I wouldn't see Disney turning more restaurants into V&A's a good thing anyway.

Finally, if Disney wants to make money from unused and underused property at WDW, then I'm glad it's not for something like an industrial complex or a "Lake Buena Vista Auto Mall." The Four Seasons development will undoubtedly be of the highest quality and will further make Central Florida into more than just a place where parents take their little kids to see Mickey.

Well, Stitch's Encounter is also better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, but that's not really a relevant comparison, and neither is an industrial complex or auto mall. Using that line of thinking, we'd also have to be happy if they brought in Motel 6.

Sure, the Four Seasons will be of the highest quality (and the highest price), but again, that says nothing about what alternatives for the land Disney could have come up with themselves.

There's no denying the fact that this, along with the Western Beltway development, is Disney trading its creative potential for at best being a landlord.

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

There's no denying the fact that this, along with the Western Beltway development, is Disney trading its creative potential for at best being a landlord.

I agree with you there.

It's a shame that Disney is not looking for ways to broaden the appeal of Walt Disney World as a vacation destination -- to attract new guests, and to encourage once-on-a-lifetime guests to return more often.

However, all things considered, if Disney must use outside companies to turn under-used WDW real estate into money, then the Four Seasons development isn't nearly as bad as other things that Disney could have done.

 

[DancingBear]

However, all things considered, if Disney must use outside companies to turn under-used WDW real estate into money, then the Four Seasons development isn't nearly as bad as other things that Disney could have done.

The problem is that's become the standard, rather than "It's not nearly as good as other things that Disney could have done."

 

[DancingBear]

I had dinner the other evening with a neighbor who is a long-time hotelier. Now an executive for the Ritz-Carlton, he also worked for Disney in the opening of the hotels at EuroDisney. I talked to him about the Four Seasons WDW deal and the inability of the Grand Floridian to achieve Mobile 4-star status, and asked him what made the difference for a hotel to achieve a 4- or 5- star rating. He said that, while of course you needed to have the proper facilities, what makes the difference are their people. They train their people to "wow" their guests by paying attention and anticipating things which will make their guests' experience wonderful.

I pointed out that the unemployment rate in the Orlando area was very low, but as the R-C at Grande Lakes in Orlando was hiring from basically the same pool as Disney, how would R-C have a better staff? He talked about their emphasis on hiring and training; he was surprised to hear that the Traditions program at Disney has been cut back. He talked about how the R-C empowers their employees to not only resolve issues for guests, but, again, to anticipate those things which might please a guest even before the guest makes a request. He talked about how this emphasis on service is reaffirmed through things such as a daily "lineup," in which everyone company-wide receives the same messages, and twice-weekly stories of how company employees went above and beyond to please the guests.

Based on this discussion, I go back to the earlier parts of this thread, and repeat my belief that the GF's inability to achieve greatness is a matter of management priorities and not any inherent issues it has with being part of the larger resort.

 

[YoHo]

And I would suggest that traditionally, all WDW hotels metthat experience emphasis. Traditions didn't die out until much more recently.

It's probably a combination of issues.
Certainly though I agree that the size of the company isn't the issue.

 

[OrlandoMike]

It also has a lot to do with the fact that Disney resorts have to basically let EVERYONE through the doors.

"I'm here to shop"

"I'm here to have dinner with Mickey"

"I'm here to just look around"

Imagine if the GF was for GF resort guests only, period!

The Four Seasons can put in a gate and let their guests enjoy their privacy.

 

[raidermatt]

Are you saying that the guests of other resorts entering the GF grounds prevent the GF staff from providing top service to the GF guests?

Or is it the mere presence of non-guests that prevents the GF from acheiving 4 or 5 star status, regardless of how they treat the GF guests?

If it's the former, I disagree. If its the latter, than I guess that means the Four Seasons WILL put up a gate to keep non-guests of the Four Seasons out?

Do they do that elsewhere? I've never stayed at a Four Seasons, but I did eat at one of their resaurants and there was nothing to keep us out.

 

[DancingBear]

Only the main building of the GF has lots of non-GF guests roaming through. Nothing about that keeps the GF from having 24 hour full-menu room service, for example. And I think GF could choose to have a GF-guest only lounge somewhere and it wouldn't be a big deal.

The 4-star (Mobil) Four Seasons in Las Vegas is inside of the Mandalay Bay. It has a separate pool area, but shares the lobby area/casino/restaurants and shopping with the hoi polloi.

 

[raidermatt]

It's a shame that Disney is not looking for ways to broaden the appeal of Walt Disney World as a vacation destination -- to attract new guests, and to encourage once-on-a-lifetime guests to return more often.

However, all things considered, if Disney must use outside companies to turn under-used WDW real estate into money, then the Four Seasons development isn't nearly as bad as other things that Disney could have done.

Lesser of evils? I get that, and its probably a better practical view given the circumstances. But I'm still holding out.

 

[Another Voice]

Voting rights are a function of residency, not ownership.

It's in the set up of the Reedy Creek Improvement District. Only landowners of property within the district's boundry are allowed to vote and sit on the board. Celebration was kicked out so that homeowners there couldn't become part of the governing body. And, in the past, Disney has sold tiny amounts of land to certain individuals so they could sit and service on the RCID board. I also understand the plan is de-annex the Four Seasons land from The City of Bay Lake, this will turn "policitical" control over to Orange County.

It seems clear that Disney is following Rasulo's template of the vast land sales at Euro Disney. It was a quick land-for-money deal: there no formal connection between be the hotels built on former EDL land and the current Disneyland Paris. The same thing has happened with Celebration (which is now just another housing development near WDW), the same thing will likely happen to the Four Seasons resort and adjacent tract housing.

 

[DisOrBust]

Forgive my ignorance but is this where the Four Season development is going/replacing? My understanding was that DVC was very profitable for the company so why the change of plans.


Disney Vacation Club Announces Plans for Largest Ownership Resort to Date At Walt Disney World Resort


LAKE BUENA VISTA, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--July 23, 2001--Disney Vacation Development, Inc., operators of Disney Vacation Club (DVC) -- Disney's innovative vacation ownership program -- announced today that it will expand its timeshare resort presence at the Walt Disney World Resort in Florida (subject to obtaining necessary approvals) by building a seventh DVC property. This latest development for the growing Disney Vacation Club product marks the Company's largest ownership resort project to date.

The announcement heralds a time of exciting growth for Disney Vacation Club, which now boasts a membership of nearly 60,000 member families from over 60 countries.

The proposed 600-unit ownership development is slated to occupy a 61-acre site along the award-winning Disney's Eagle Pines Golf Course at Walt Disney World Resort. All rooms will feature either a pool, golf course or forest view. Initial plans call for the construction of a main Inn building encompassing a check-in area; accommodations; restaurant/lounge; theme pool with feature slide; retail space; arcade; common living room area and a health club, as well as Villa buildings containing vacation home accommodations. Development will begin this fall with an estimated opening in Spring/Summer 2004.

"We are very excited to expand the Disney Vacation Club concept to an entirely new resort area here at Walt Disney World Resort," said George Aguel, Senior Vice President and General Manager of Disney Vacation Development, Inc. "I am confident that this new offering will be a successful addition to the dynamic vacation options we provide."

The theme of the proposed DVC resort will complement and enhance the beautiful setting found at Disney's Eagle Pines Golf Course. The new resort will be inspired by the architecture of Addison Mizner, a celebrated early 20th century architect who led the renaissance of Florida resort design. The property's design will reflect a variety of motifs found in indigenous Florida buildings of this era, including Spanish, Moorish, Romanesque and Gothic forms. The atmosphere and elegance found in the coastal communities of southeast Florida (including West Palm Beach and Boca Raton) will be found in the resort's architecture, ranging from tile roofs to fountains to lush, tropical landscaping.

Commissioned to design the resort was renowned architect Graham Gund, who created the architectural look for such Disney projects as Disney's Coronado Springs Resort and Disney's Vero Beach Resort -- another Disney Vacation Club property. Gund designed the resort to take advantage of the pristine setting found at Disney's Eagle Pines Golf Course while maintaining the integrity of the existing golf course. Guests at the resort will have views to Disney's Eagle Pines Golf Course but golfers' view of the property will be buffered, with resort buildings "stepping down" in height as they near the golf holes.

The new resort is scheduled to open in phases, with the first phase consisting of the Inn building and five Villa buildings for a total of 360 units. The Inn and one Villa building are currently expected to open in Spring/Summer 2004, with the four additional Villa buildings opening throughout the remainder of that year. The final phase of five additional Villa buildings containing 240 units are currently anticipated to open by Spring/Summer 2005.

As Disney Vacation Club approaches its decade mark on October 1, 2001, the Company is celebrating a number of achievements, including the expansion of its resort collection through the proposed addition of the new resort at Disney's Eagle Pines Golf Course and the completion of Disney's Beach Club Villas, which is currently under construction at Walt Disney World Resort next to the popular Disney's Beach Club Resort (expected opening in September 2002).

"These latest expansions of our successful vacation ownership program will allow us to provide still more magical experiences for our guest and member families," added Aguel.

The current collection of Disney Vacation Club Resorts includes Disney's Old Key West Resort; Disney's BoardWalk Villas and The Villas at Disney's Wilderness Lodge -- all located at the Walt Disney World Resort -- as well as Disney's first resorts beyond the Disney theme park locations; Disney's Vero Beach Resort on Florida's Atlantic Coast and Disney's Hilton Head Island Resort in South Carolina.

 

[G8RFAN]

Maybe the union's collective agreement with Disney has influence in this. A higher end hotel has by nature a much higher level of expectation from it's staff for service and attention. From true concierge to true turn down service, all employees must be able to act and appear professional, while their rewards are generally healthy gratuities. If a floor manager/housekeeping staff can make more money working at RC or at a FS, than a Marriott or Hilton, great. But I'm not sure the staff at GF makes more than any of the other deluxes by design.

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

Forgive my ignorance but is this where the Four Season development is going/replacing? My understanding was that DVC was very profitable for the company so why the change of plans.

Yes, the Four Seasons-anchored luxury resort and golf community includes the site of the announced (but never built) DVC resort at Eagle Pines Golf Course.

According to this excerpt from the official Disney press release:

"Along the northeast border of Walt Disney World Resort, Disney plans to convert its Eagle Pines and Osprey Ridge golf courses into a luxury resort and golf community. The development will include a luxury hotel, 18-hole championship golf course, single- and multi-family vacation homes and fractional ownership vacation homes.

"Disney entered into a letter of intent with Four Seasons Hotels and Resorts to bring these two complementary and respected brands together to anchor a new world-class family resort destination."​

This page at MiceAge has a map of the Four Seasons site.

That doesn't mean that DVC won't keep expanding. It just eliminates the Eagle Pines Golf Course location.

 

[umbluegray]

and gives up land in the process.

Disney announces two major resort expansions

Orlando Business Journal - March 1, 2007
by Bob Mervine
Staff Writer

Walt Disney World said Thursday it is developing two large tracts of land on different areas of its 43-square mile property, one aimed at high-dollar luxury guests and the other designed to appeal to a more moderately-priced audience.

The announcement came from Meg Crofton, president of Walt Disney World, at a seminar for business journalists at the Central Florida resort.

The first, a 900-acre golf community, would replace the existing Eagle Pines golf course at the Bonnet Creek Golf Club with an as yet undetermined-sized Four Seasons hotel.

Disney says it has signed a letter of intent with the Toronto-based company.

Four Seasons (NYSE: FS), a luxury hotel product new to Central Florida, would also renovate the existing Osprey Ridge course and rebrand it as a Four Seasons course.

Also planned within the golf community are fractional homes and single-family homes on land that would be de-annexed by the Reedy Creek Improvement District and annexed into Orange County.

Disney says it expects to open the Four Seasons hotel by 2010 and a phase of the residential units at the same time.

The second project, also unnamed, is located on 450 acres near the new Western Beltway that Disney plans to sell to an as-yet-unnamed developer or group of developers.

Crofton describes it as appealing to the value- and mid-priced market and containing a mix of 4,000 to 5,000 non-Disney branded time share and low- to mid-rise hotel units. The area would also include 300,000 to 500,000 square feet of retail space -- shops, restaurants, entertainment venues and clubs -- aimed at the visitors staying in the complex.

No dollar amount was set for either project.

The announcement was unusual for Disney, since the company generally avoids announcing major projects without providing great detail about the expansion.

Disney Public Affairs Vice President Bill Warren explained the haste behind the announcement was driven by the need to begin de-annexation of the planned single-family homes. "We know there's not as much detail as you are used to," Warren told the business writers group, "however we felt an obligation to inform our local government partners about our plans."

The Walt Disney Co. (NYSE: DIS) is a diversified worldwide entertainment company. Its Parks and Resorts division owns and operates Disneyland and the Walt Disney World Resort. The company was founded in 1923 and is based in Burbank, Calif.

 

[OKW Lover]

Isn't this the same story that was around a few months ago? I don't see anything new in it.

 

[crazy4wdw]

This information has already been discussed extensively on another thread. I'm merging this thread with initial thread on the Four Seasons developement.