Norway Ride & Rivers Of Light (Disappointing Progress Updates)

[Spacedog1975]

There is a lot of fuss about how imagineers are responsible for delays. Is it not possible that delayed and ultra-short term live testing is responsible for the delay? If they were given the opportunity to begin testing sooner, it is possible they'd have made the opening target.

 

[JaxDad]

Which doesn't mean you get to ignore the need for engineers just because you have "imagineers". The physics is the same in WDW as it is in the "real" world.

This! "Imagineer" is just another Disney term like "Cast Member." When I was taking the Professional Engineer exam, I could choose from several disciplines like Civil, Mechanical, etc, but "Imagineering" was not one of them.

 

[Boski]

I would imagine the "Imagineer" term would be composed of engineers, architects, designers, etc. The call Joe Rohde an "Imagineer" but I'm pretty sure that guy is not in any way shape or form an engineer.

 

[rteetz]

Which doesn't mean you get to ignore the need for engineers just because you have "imagineers". The physics is the same in WDW as it is in the "real" world.



I agree, but your statement wasn't limited to ROL or the Norway ride. Unless I read it wrong, it was a sweeping generalization about not needing "real" engineers at Disney, presumably because "the whole world" doesn't use it.

I apologize and understand the need for engineers. Like I said I hope to become one starting this fall.

My statement was regarding rivers of light at least that's what I was trying to do. I do think Disney needs "real" engineers I just think Disney engineers tend to be more of the artistic type. I don't know that's just my take.

 

[rteetz]

There is a lot of fuss about how imagineers are responsible for delays. Is it not possible that delayed and ultra-short term live testing is responsible for the delay? If they were given the opportunity to begin testing sooner, it is possible they'd have made the opening target.

I think it is possible but we obviously don't know for sure. I know it's been said that they wouldn't be testing during the day if it weren't for the issues.

 

[luisov]

But then again, how many engineers that you know are in charge of building fake floating mountains and mechanical dragons? The fact that Disney's number of casualties due to engineering negligence is so low in an industry that is full of them should indicate the quality of their engineering. No apologist here, I just don't think it's fair to question the quality of the engineers because a delayed show. It only shows that they are concerned about quality and safety.

And we don't even know if the ''technical difficulties'' excuse is the actual reason behind the delays.

 

[Eoghann]

It's funny how many excuses we make for Disney imagineers when these things happen. Imagine doing that in almost any other industry. Not being critical, I've done it too.

I don't think you can treat these equally. RoL is an attempt to use new technology in a fashion they haven't previously and in a situation which is very hard to simulate for testing purposes. Frozen Ever After on the other hand, well they did have a fire that's a legitimate delay, but otherwise it should be bread and butter construction for them.

 

[Eoghann]

you don't see real engineers making a bridge that then falls down and people saying "whoops, oh well they were trying to make a bridge unlike something anyone had made before". The first indication that Disney's engineers were not good was the pressure issue in tower of terror that I had heard about (although I can't confirm it happened), the second issue was cracking in the foundation of the Yeti. Those are things that a good engineer would not have had issues with

Uh... yes you do. There are plenty of famous engineering disasters.

 

[sachilles]

I currently work in an engineering intensive area(professional motorsports). My 2 cents on engineers relative to delays. Delays happen, especially when engineering something new, where there are not existing off the shelf solutions. Even if things exist, they often must be custom, and delays are common from those suppliers. Engineering is such that is something is miscalculated, it can have a ripple effect, that makes everyone's life miserable for the remainder of a project.
While engineers endeavor to account for everything in the design phase. Things happen during construction, that can compromise the original plans, causing headaches further downstream. Certainly Disney is not the only company to have construction delays. They aren't perfect, but know they aren't the only one's the encounter delays. They just happen to be the one we tend to watch with extra scrutiny.

 

[wilkeliza]

Jumping in on this because of the imagineer vs engineer debate. I wanted to be an imagineer (still do but ship has sailed) and I can tell you I'm not an engineer. I wanted to do show design. That's where delays come in. So a artsy person designs the rides, restaurants, etc. Then it goes off to the actual engineers who put the nuts and bolts on paper and screen. Then back to the artsy people who try to cram more "magic" into it, then back to the people who can actually tell you if it is possible or not etc. Let us not forget Baxter has a degree in Theater and only proved his mechanical know how from something he built. So back to the process once the design and mechanics are all hashed out it goes to the builders and as @sachilles mentioned there are things that construction can do that throw off the whole thing. They delay, fix, delay and then comes everyone's favorite the bean counters. So the people that decide how long a queue has to be or how fast a ride should cycle. Now more delays while we design and adjust to that. The conversation I got to have with an imagineer about that made the whole thing sound like a headache because they all know they take the short end of the stick on the internet and a lot of it is out of their hands.

 

[skier_pete]

1) Norway (Epcot):
. . . many of the CM's don't think the boats can maneuver one of the turns, while Imagineers say, "Yes"
. . . the CM's think even if they navigate the turn, they will "bunch up".

I have to think the imagineers are going to be right on this one. Imagineers run simulators on size of boats and tracks to make sure everything fits together.

they need to hire some real engineers in the imagineering department. Say what you want but these technical difficulties would be avoided if they hired smarter engineers

I don't work for Disney but find this a particularly insulting insinuation. I am sure Disney hires "real" engineers - not just artists and dreamers. (I am an engineer by the way, but not the same kind as these folks.)

The foundation is a myth as far as I know. Many people familiar with the situation say the yeti can be removed without shutting down the ride but of course Disney doesn't want to have a yeti-less Everest. You have to also look at it this way. This is a theme park not bridges or roads that everyone in the world is using. A lot of these new attractions are also using brand new technology. Tower of terror was state of the art when it opened.

It admittedly was a pretty bad mess-up on the design that they didn't know the Yeti would damage itself due to it's size. I have spoken with actual imagineers on this.
What I was told is that they have a fix developed (for years now) but the ride would need to be shut down for about six weeks, and management doesn't want to do that in a park with a shortage of rides. In addition, 99.999% of a riders never even notice that anything is "wrong" with the attraction, so there isn't a huge motivation to fix the problem.

No, wrong, Wrong, WRONG. This is an excellent example of why non-engineers should not be making engineering decisions or judgements. There are many, many places at Disney where if the engineering is wrong, people will eventually DIE. Not just have a ride closed because it breaks down. They will DIE. In many cases at Disney, the engineering is more complicated, because roads (and to a lesser extent bridges) are by now fairly simple and well understood (barring "innovative" designs), while some rides have many failure modes.

Exactly right - One thing people seem to want to give no credit to here - most "engineering" in your everyday life involves building things that are mass produced - cars, computers, table saws - and the manufacturers have spent years putting it together to the point that it is seeing the market. A Disney ride is a one-of-a-kind operation, that they have to test "in place". Sure, some of the animatronics are tested in the shop, but really until every piece is in place

Another thing I will defend on Imagineering with being late on things - I don't know how it works at Disney, but where I work, we are often given project deadlines not based on how long it will actually take to do it, but based on a management decision that it WILL be done by this point. Then we are not given the support or manpower to achieve that artificially created target. This well could happen at Disney. (Imagineer: "It will take us 18 months." Manager: "OK, but you have to have it done in 14 months so it is open for the summer season." Imagineer: "Well, that will cost more." Manager: "No it won't. Just do it.")

The same thing might have happened at Rivers of Light - "Oh we can open on Earth Day! Let's open on Earth Day!" "Ummm...we aren't going to be ready." "Yes you will!"

 

[DanBoris]

Uh... yes you do. There are plenty of famous engineering disasters.

 

[HopperFan]

Jumping in on this because of the imagineer vs engineer debate. I wanted to be an imagineer (still do but ship has sailed) and I can tell you I'm not an engineer. I wanted to do show design. That's where delays come in. So a artsy person designs the rides, restaurants, etc. Then it goes off to the actual engineers who put the nuts and bolts on paper and screen. Then back to the artsy people who try to cram more "magic" into it, then back to the people who can actually tell you if it is possible or not etc. Let us not forget Baxter has a degree in Theater and only proved his mechanical know how from something he built. So back to the process once the design and mechanics are all hashed out it goes to the builders and as @sachilles mentioned there are things that construction can do that throw off the whole thing. They delay, fix, delay and then comes everyone's favorite the bean counters. So the people that decide how long a queue has to be or how fast a ride should cycle. Now more delays while we design and adjust to that. The conversation I got to have with an imagineer about that made the whole thing sound like a headache because they all know they take the short end of the stick on the internet and a lot of it is out of their hands.

Well said.

ALSO Disney subcontracts most their "engineering" and "construction" out - big things are not built by Disney "imagineers".

Imagineers cover a wide range of duties at Disney and should not be confused with engineers. Their hands on may do everything from sketches to project management.

Imagineers at Disney have educations in Animation, Architecture, Fine Arts, Landscape Architecture .. a wide range .. and some engineers.

 

[JaxDad]

Another thing I will defend on Imagineering with being late on things - I don't know how it works at Disney, but where I work, we are often given project deadlines not based on how long it will actually take to do it, but based on a management decision that it WILL be done by this point. Then we are not given the support or manpower to achieve that artificially created target. This well could happen at Disney. (Imagineer: "It will take us 18 months." Manager: "OK, but you have to have it done in 14 months so it is open for the summer season." Imagineer: "Well, that will cost more." Manager: "No it won't. Just do it.")

The same thing might have happened at Rivers of Light - "Oh we can open on Earth Day! Let's open on Earth Day!" "Ummm...we aren't going to be ready." "Yes you will!"

Yes

 

[Ursula's Apprentice]

That's exactly what I thought of when I heard engineering mistakes lol.

 

[Eoghann]

And if the Redskins just got the best players they would win the Superbowl.

This is armchair quarterbacking at its best.

 

[LaidBackDad]

I take issue with the whole "delays just happen" take. It is simply not true and illogical. There is always a reason for a delay. The delay occurs after a problems is discovered, then an investigation into the problem takes place to determine what the problem is. What that means in real life terms is a mistake and / or miscalculation was made at some point in the planning and building process. The ability to eliminate mistakes or miscalculations in the first place is what separates really good engineers or project managers from mediocre ones. I can't place all the blame on the engineers / imagineers on this case. That falls squarely on management. Clearly too much of a history of management interference by cutting budgets, manipulating time frames, and setting arbitrary deadlines before testing could be completed. That is not to take all the blame off of the imagineers, they certainly bare their fair share; but, problems are bound to occur if your focus is constantly disrupted by external agendas that often have little to do with the success of the project. So, if you you mean that poor management has a way of messing up even the best engineers, then yes, you could say "delays just happen", then I agree. Other than that, it just sounds like something the person who screwed everything up would say.

 

[Flyerjab]

I have to think the imagineers are going to be right on this one. Imagineers run simulators on size of boats and tracks to make sure everything fits together.



I don't work for Disney but find this a particularly insulting insinuation. I am sure Disney hires "real" engineers - not just artists and dreamers. (I am an engineer by the way, but not the same kind as these folks.)



It admittedly was a pretty bad mess-up on the design that they didn't know the Yeti would damage itself due to it's size. I have spoken with actual imagineers on this.
What I was told is that they have a fix developed (for years now) but the ride would need to be shut down for about six weeks, and management doesn't want to do that in a park with a shortage of rides. In addition, 99.999% of a riders never even notice that anything is "wrong" with the attraction, so there isn't a huge motivation to fix the problem.



Exactly right - One thing people seem to want to give no credit to here - most "engineering" in your everyday life involves building things that are mass produced - cars, computers, table saws - and the manufacturers have spent years putting it together to the point that it is seeing the market. A Disney ride is a one-of-a-kind operation, that they have to test "in place". Sure, some of the animatronics are tested in the shop, but really until every piece is in place

Another thing I will defend on Imagineering with being late on things - I don't know how it works at Disney, but where I work, we are often given project deadlines not based on how long it will actually take to do it, but based on a management decision that it WILL be done by this point. Then we are not given the support or manpower to achieve that artificially created target. This well could happen at Disney. (Imagineer: "It will take us 18 months." Manager: "OK, but you have to have it done in 14 months so it is open for the summer season." Imagineer: "Well, that will cost more." Manager: "No it won't. Just do it.")

The same thing might have happened at Rivers of Light - "Oh we can open on Earth Day! Let's open on Earth Day!" "Ummm...we aren't going to be ready." "Yes you will!"

Having supported capital projects where I work, there are times when management makes decisions where you end up questioning if they live in the same world that you do. I recall one project that we worked on diligently for weeks, planning out each step and how long each would take. At one point someone stepped up and suggested that we build in some contingency time so that we would have time available to tackle any unforeseen problems while still meeting milestone dates. The project lead flatly stated that we plan for success, not for failure. I found that interesting as that philosophy is founded on the concept that everything in a multi-stage project will be executed flawlessly...which in itself is a flawed concept. A little contingency built into a master schedule is a good thing.

 

[Slayd]

And if the Redskins just got the best players they would win the Superbowl.

As a long-time Redskins fan...that is highly debatable.

 

[STLstone]

....

Another thing I will defend on Imagineering with being late on things - I don't know how it works at Disney, but where I work, we are often given project deadlines not based on how long it will actually take to do it, but based on a management decision that it WILL be done by this point. Then we are not given the support or manpower to achieve that artificially created target. This well could happen at Disney. (Imagineer: "It will take us 18 months." Manager: "OK, but you have to have it done in 14 months so it is open for the summer season." Imagineer: "Well, that will cost more." Manager: "No it won't. Just do it.")

The same thing might have happened at Rivers of Light - "Oh we can open on Earth Day! Let's open on Earth Day!" "Ummm...we aren't going to be ready." "Yes you will!"

Uhhh, do you work at the same place I do? LOL