"Red Shirt" Vent

[brymolmom]

Classes are far more likely to cater to the weaker kids. And if a kid is having problems there is nothing to say that their parent can't help them. Why care how a grade schooler scores in a standardized test? And there will always be someone better at sports. I could care less what other families choose. It just isn't my problem. And, no, mine weren't.

It isn't the parents problem...but definitely can be the younger child's problem, unfortunately. One of the first things I told my 4 year old Kindergartener's teacher is that if I saw ONE indication coming home on her report card (difficulty sitting still....following instructions....etc.) that she was compared to SIX year olds in her classroom to receive it - I would NOT be happy. Average 4 year olds do have a bit more issue sitting still...following instructions, etc. than 6 year olds. That's normal and expected and since that classroom was made for 4 and 5 year olds - do not hold my child to standards set by a child who should be in 1st grade. Luckily, my dd's K teacher also had a 4 year old child starting school that year - so she knew exactly where I was coming from. DD has done fine, but it COULD be an issue if the teacher was not realizing the differences in maturity that should be there due to age differences. Unfortunately, as much as they try to avoid it - kids are compared to each other (higher reading group....lowest reading group, G/T, etc.) and I don't want my child being compared to a child 18 months older than she is. She can hold her own very well with her peers but I (nor anyone else) should expect her to hold her own with kids that much older than she is. So it does affect us as much as I wish it didn't. It affects every child who should be in that class, not just the young ones.

 

[GinnyEmma]

Who cares which reading group as long as a child learns to read?

 

[princessmom29]

I totally get where you are coming from OP. My DD had 2 boys in her K class last year who turned 7 a month to 6 weeks after school started. Their parents did it to give them an edge on the soccer/ football field b/c here they play by grade level not age. (Yes i know this for a fact becuase I heard these parents say so). Those boys were aconstant source of trouble in the classroom becuase they were bored nad di not belong in the same classroom as 5 year olds. We had a couple of children who entered at 4 and turned 5 in the first month of school (cutoff is september 1) in the same room with 2 children who were turning 7, so a full 2 year age span. I am one of those that say that unless there is a compelling, documented developmental delay that children should start on time.

 

[twooley2]

People with kids that are the young ones in their classes care not because just 1 parent holds back a child that needs to be held back but because there are many in each class that are held back and not all of them because they needed extra time to succeed in Kindy.

In some area's it is the norm to hold back and it makes it more difficult for the younger (but age appropriate child) to succeed. The classes go faster than they would usually go, they are challenged by being smaller or developmentally less mature, and it does effect outside activities such as sports. All of these things put them at a disadvantage and *could* hurt confidence and possible opportunities.

Standardized tests are not graded by age but by grade. And knowing the class material is not the only factor in a test. The children need to sit through the test, follow the directions properly etc. When a significant portion of the class is older by more than 12 months, it can make the youngest child look not as capable.

This is the reason many parents choose to hold their child back to give that advantage and when so many are doing it, it will start to really disadvantage others.

That is why other parents care. Not due to 1, but the many. Personally I don't care if you hold your child back, but it does effect my child who is one of the youngest. But I understood what I was getting into by sending her on time and yet sometimes I do wonder "what if" I had held her back. Would things be better for her?

BTW she does very well in school and sport(and she is tiny to boot) and if I had held her back she would have looked advanced for her grade. Instead she is average which is fine by me but like I said, I do wonder if I too should have done what so many other do.

Most of the kids that are held back if they are so advanced will be placed in advaned classes later. Everyone blossoms at a different rate. Judging others is so elementary. Many kids may be behind when the choice is made and later blossom and excel. No one can predict when or if this will happen. What happens if your child falls behind so much do you push her ahead because she might be tall even if she cant read at the right level HMMMM

 

[GinnyEmma]

So were they academically so far beyond the children for a fact? Maybe they were brats because they didn't understand.

 

[dis-happy]

Standardized tests are not graded by age but by grade. And knowing the class material is not the only factor in a test. The children need to sit through the test, follow the directions properly etc. When a significant portion of the class is older by more than 12 months, it can make the youngest child look not as capable.

Standardized tests are scaled to a national norm (and not the one for your test year, but a specific statistical group that includes different ages, ethnicities, geographical locations, etc.) It really doesn't matter what the rest of your child's class scores on the test and they have no bearing on your child's score.

 

[cm8]

Some of you may remember me from previous threads about "should I start Kindergarten or hold them back", and it is no secret that I am a proponent of sending kids to school rather than holding them back unless there is a developmental reason. Just my opinion, yours may differ.

So this week I am sitting in my son's basketball practice (the 2nd grade clinic) with a mother who is going on and on about how worried she is because her son is so tall and thin compared to the other kids. She even said something about how he was in a play at school and when they all lined up on stage at the end he looked like "an Amazon kid" (her words not mine) compared to the other kids.

I happen to remember this kid, because when he was in our public school he was a grade ahead of my son, but now they are in the same grade. Conversation continues, and I find out that she pulled him out of public school at the end of 2nd grade, and put him in 2nd grade again in the Catholic school because he's her "baby" (an only child) she thought he was "too young". He is an October birthday, my son is November, a year later.

I know I'm a little hyper-sensitive to this because I have a November-birthday son that I sent to school, but she seriously annoyed me. Of course your kid is "so tall" compared to the other kids in the 2nd grade basketball clinic...HE'S A YEAR OLDER THAN THEY ARE!

While I realize that she has the right to do whatever she wants with her child, I reserve the right to be annoyed. I'm annoyed at the fact that now this kid (currently a head taller than everyone else in the group) will be playing sports against kids a year younger than he is, and at the fact that the mother just wouldn't stop about how her son is "so tall".

Just wanted to vent. Thanks for listening.

 

[princessmom29]

So were they academically so far beyond the children for a fact? Maybe they were brats because they didn't understand.

oh no, they were absolutely bored. I volenteered in the class when I could and one thing we did was to help with centers. I worked with them enoughto know that these kids had seen everything we were doing before, and were reading fairly fluently on day one of K. They could add and subtract coming in as well. They definitely "got it". They acted out becuase they were bored, and in the case of one of them because mom never believed her little angel did ANYTHING wong.

 

[Aneille]

Standardized tests are scaled to a national norm (and not the one for your test year, but a specific statistical group that includes different ages, ethnicities, geographical locations, etc.) It really doesn't matter what the rest of your child's class scores on the test and they have no bearing on your child's score.

I may be totally wrong on this but I believe in my school district how my kids perform on the 4th grade MCAS test is a big factor in determining which tract they are placed on in 6th grade (beginning of middle school in my district.)

So the National Norm isn't that big of deal but the State Norm is as well as the individual schools that filter into the middle school in determining the next few years in school.

To address the other poster as to why I care how my child compares to others on a standardized test the above reason is why. The schools place so much on 1 test.

I personally don't but a lot of stock into standardized tests in determining overall success as an adult or high school/college student. I also agree that kids blossom at different ages. But there is a self confidence that comes with people believing that you are smarter than the average kid in your grade or better in some other way, that a younger child *may not* experience if compared with children much older.

The problem isn't me. The problem is how our schools judge/compare our children.

My young child is doing very well as I said and I don't expect it to hold her back in any way.

And I am no way judging those that do choose to hold their children back. I had the same choice. I am just trying to point out that there is another way of looking at the red shirt phenomenon that is going in some of our schools. I

It can also put more pressure on our teachers as their are more gaps in what the children are capable of.

 

[poegirl30]

In our state, the cutoff is Sept. 30. My ds has an October birthday, so he will be almost six when he starts K. He's in Pre-K and loving it! My oldest son had the same issue. (He was a November baby and is 16 in 10th grade.) At my son's Pre-K, I did notice that the kids seemed to be "grouped" by birthdays.

For those states that do have early cutoffs, a child could be held back one year and be 7 in K.

 

[mjantz]

We made the decision to red shirt our DS due to my experience in the classroom as a student teacher in 1st grade. Boys with summer birthdays seemed to be struggling in first grade. Maturity-wise he just wasn't ready. Now, as a Jr High student I can tell I made the right decision. His sister OTOH, was totally ready even with a summer birthday. She's excelling & I think would be really bored if she had been red shirted.

 

[dis-happy]

...

 

[bellebud]

I sent my 4yo dd to K (mid-Oct bday, early Dec cut-off). She was the youngest in her class, struggled in some things, did well in other things. But she was ready, and I didn't want her to ever think "you didn't think I could handle being in my proper grade???"

 

[Leajess99]

I'm sure she realized it. How could you not realize it? I don't know why she just felt the need to point it out. And to be clear, she said she decided to send him to 2nd grade again because he was "young"...it was her choice, not something that was chosen for her based on an academic or developmental issue. She said she pulled him out of the public school and sent him to the Catholic school specifically so he could repeat the grade because the public school wouldn't let her do that and he was "too young". Unless she's lying? Who knows...

This is a 2nd grade basketball clinic, so clearly not a big deal. At all. Like I said before - she has the right to do as she wishes, I have the right to disagree with it and be annoyed by it. And I will be especially annoyed by it if the kid is allowed to continue playing a year down in sports because of his grade - it could effect the participation of other kids that are "true" grade level - mine or someone else's. Thankfully they're in different schools, so academically it doesn't directly effect my son at all.

I so get your vent. My daughter had a kid on her basketball team last year that was also in 1st grade (basketball was done by grade level while soccer is done by ages) and he was turning 8 while she turned 7. His parents held him back from starting and not because he had a close to cutoff birthday. He had an early in the year birthday like Feb or March and my youngest has a Jan birthday. The kid was the biggest one on our team and just did not really fit with the younger kids. Now this year he will again be with the 1st and 2nd graders while he should be with the 3rd and 4th graders. There were at least 2 others in the same situation on other teams and it is sad. No, it does not matter 20 years down the road but it does matter to these kids who are half their size and 1 to 2 years younger than them playing where they are supposed to be playing. My daughter is not small for her age but she also spent a couple of games defending against these should be 3rd graders who would have fit more appropriately with their own peers.

Soccer and many other sports here are done by ages so even though my youngest is in the same grade with some of her friends they play in a younger league due to their birthdays. My daughter does play up in soccer though as she has the speed and ability and just got so bored at her age appropriate league.

 

[Leajess99]

Most of the kids that are held back if they are so advanced will be placed in advaned classes later. Everyone blossoms at a different rate. Judging others is so elementary. Many kids may be behind when the choice is made and later blossom and excel. No one can predict when or if this will happen. What happens if your child falls behind so much do you push her ahead because she might be tall even if she cant read at the right level HMMMM

I'm sorry but that is not true in all school districts. Our school district does not allow for early move up anymore and if you delay your child from starting on time, most administrators will not even consider early move up. My youngest was in a class with kids who were delayed from starting on time and these kids were a constant disruption. There parents were teachers in the school so the teacher would be spending a lot of time chasing down these other teachers and doing for them while the younger kids were left to struggle or the kids needing inhalers went without their inhaler (my daughter was one of these and no matter what she would not get her inhaler). The school had math groups and of course these kids went to the advanced math group because they would have been in 1st grade already had they started on time. The teacher would give more challenging work to these kids to try and keep them from disrupting class but it did not help. On the playground it became dangerous for the younger kids because these ones would run them over or try and push them out of the way if they were not moving fast enough. Yes, this could happen to age appropriate kids that are just big as well but these kids had a whole different level than the 4 year olds turning 5 shortly after starting K since many were already 6 turning 7 by the end of the school year.

 

[Leajess99]

I may be totally wrong on this but I believe in my school district how my kids perform on the 4th grade MCAS test is a big factor in determining which tract they are placed on in 6th grade (beginning of middle school in my district.)So the National Norm isn't that big of deal but the State Norm is as well as the individual schools that filter into the middle school in determining the next few years in school.

To address the other poster as to why I care how my child compares to others on a standardized test the above reason is why. The schools place so much on 1 test.

I personally don't but a lot of stock into standardized tests in determining overall success as an adult or high school/college student. I also agree that kids blossom at different ages. But there is a self confidence that comes with people believing that you are smarter than the average kid in your grade or better in some other way, that a younger child *may not* experience if compared with children much older.

The problem isn't me. The problem is how our schools judge/compare our children.

My young child is doing very well as I said and I don't expect it to hold her back in any way.

And I am no way judging those that do choose to hold their children back. I had the same choice. I am just trying to point out that there is another way of looking at the red shirt phenomenon that is going in some of our schools. I

It can also put more pressure on our teachers as their are more gaps in what the children are capable of.

In reference to the bolded, this is how it is done for my middle daughter as well. somewhere along the line last year someone messed up and they had placed her in the wrong Math class so we had to jump through hoops with additional testing for her but otherwise it was all done in comparison scores like her Math class this year. This year the school decided to keep the group together for advanced math and they will stay together next year as well. All of this was based off of their test scores in comparison to each other.

 

[GinnyEmma]

I realize my opinion is unpopular. I just believe that you and yours have he right to do what you think best, as do I and mine. If you don't like the way your school deals with it, I'd find another school. If my kid was put in the wring math class, I'd have it changed. If my kid needs more help, I help them. There are just games I dont play.

 

[Colleen27]

I can understand where the mom is coming from. We didn't hold our son out but we should have, and we ended up doing something similar to the changing schools (we homeschooled several years when he was crying and making himself sick over having to go to school, and then had him placed according to his counselor's and reading specialist's evaluations, which put him where he would have been if we'd held him out).

But despite knowing that he's right where he should be academically and socially, I did worry about him being so much bigger than his peers when he was younger. That's the kind of thing kids tease over, and my son's a big kid even with kids his own age (5'5" and 140# at 12). I'm sure there are other parents who are annoyed that my son will be playing football with their much smaller boys, though it hasn't come up yet because he's still in age-division rec ball; school teams don't start until 8th grade. But you know what, I just don't care what they think - they have no idea what we went through with the kid to get him to this point, and opinions formed from only part of the picture just aren't worth worrying about.

 

[mom2aredhead]

I realize my opinion is unpopular. I just believe that you and yours have he right to do what you think best, as do I and mine. If you don't like the way your school deals with it, I'd find another school. If my kid was put in the wring math class, I'd have it changed. If my kid needs more help, I help them. There are just games I dont play.

You're absolutely right. Everyone is allowed to do what they want. In this case that's kind of my problem. This mother I was speaking about in my original post didn't like that our school had a strict rule and wouldn't let her son repeat 2nd grade based on her opinion that he was young. So she changed schools. Is it fair to the kids in the new school that she made that choice? He's already been through the 2nd grade curriculum once, is familiar with it, and now the other kids in the class will be compared to him. That's absolutely not fair to them and gives him an advantage. And that's why parents "care what other people do". Because unless you live in a bubble, chances are that some of your decisions or choices will effect someone other than you.

People have the right to do what they think is best. But if it effects my son - whether it be something silly like not making the basketball team, or something important struggling in school because his class has older kids in it that should be a grade up - I have the right to be annoyed by it.

 

[mom2aredhead]

I'm sure there are other parents who are annoyed that my son will be playing football with their much smaller boys, though it hasn't come up yet because he's still in age-division rec ball; school teams don't start until 8th grade. But you know what, I just don't care what they think - they have no idea what we went through with the kid to get him to this point, and opinions formed from only part of the picture just aren't worth worrying about.

I believe football has more of an age/weight requirement and doesn't go by grade.
And I know you don't care - but I have to say that I would care. Absolutely. If your child is a year or 2 older, and as a result a year or 2 larger, but is allowed to play on the team with younger/smaller kids because they're in the same grade, I would absolutely have a problem with that if I were one of the other parents. It bothers me because it not only gives one child an unfair size advantage over the others, but it could discourage the kids that are age/grade appropriate but now compared to the older kid.

And if any of the younger & smaller kids got hurt because of being hit/tackled/tagged/fouled/whatever by a kid that is older and bigger and should be on a different team, I would be absolutely furious.