So THAT'S how you get into Harvard, Update page 2

[Gumbo4x4]

Nothing wrong with Harvard's or any other private school's admission standards and practices.

I think they’re well within their rights to handle it however they choose. Not sure I’d go so far as to say there’s “nothing wrong” with it.

 

[DisneyOma]

I will read the article later. But I can bet the secret is: Don't be Asian.

Harvard (and many other colleges) discriminate against Asian Americans. That is a known fact.

Is the US made up of more than 23% Asian Americans? I thought it was around 5%, according to the census:

https://factfinder.census.gov/faces...ew.xhtml?pid=ACS_08_1YR_B02001&prodType=table

So how could having 23% Asian American in a class , when the US only has 5% of its population listed as Asian for race, be discriminating?

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Is the US made up of more than 23% Asian Americans? I thought it was around 5%, according to the census:

https://factfinder.census.gov/faces...ew.xhtml?pid=ACS_08_1YR_B02001&prodType=table

So how could having 23% Asian American in a class , when the US only has 5% of its population listed as Asian for race, be discriminating?

I believe the point was that Asians actually comprised MORE than 23% of the qualified applicants.

If I’m reading it correctly.

 

[bcla]

Is the US made up of more than 23% Asian Americans? I thought it was around 5%, according to the census:

https://factfinder.census.gov/faces...ew.xhtml?pid=ACS_08_1YR_B02001&prodType=table

So how could having 23% Asian American in a class , when the US only has 5% of its population listed as Asian for race, be discriminating?

The gist would be that it could easily be over 50% if it were based on grades and test scores, but that they find ways to reduce the percentage by claiming that many Asian-American students aren’t “well rounded”. PHarvard is already “majority minority” now.

Private schools have never really been true meritocracies due to numerous exceptions.

 

[gina2000]

The lawsuit is important. It seeks to abolish affirmative action. That's what's important about this - not legacy admissions, not money, not social standing. Harvard's admission policy is being used as a test case so that no minority, no group should given special consideration in American society.

 

[bcla]

I think they’re well within their rights to handle it however they choose. Not sure I’d go so far as to say there’s “nothing wrong” with it.

The need to be transparent about it. Public universities have well established policies that must be made available to the public via “sunshine statute” requirements in most state laws. Private schools often refuse to disclose their policies.

 

[DisneyOma]

I believe the point was that Asians actually comprised MORE than 23% of the qualified applicants.

If I’m reading it correctly.

Well, that goes for many students - which is why they look for other aspects as well. I've got a valedictorian and salutatorian in the family. One got into a highly selective college. The other one didn't. Not all qualified students get into the college of their choice. That's life.

The gist would be that it could easily be over 50% if it were based on grades and test scores, but that they find ways to reduce the percentage by claiming that many Asian-American students aren’t “well rounded”. PHarvard is already “majority minority” now.

Private schools have never really been true meritocracies due to numerous exceptions.

But I thought that the article stated that there were so many applicants with pretty much perfect records, perfect scores on SATs, that they could fill the entire class with perfect students:

"About 40,000 students apply each year, and about 2,000 are admitted for some 1,600 seats in the freshman class. The chances of admission this year were under 5 percent. Of the 26,000 domestic applicants for the Class of 2019 (the lawsuit is not concerned with international students), about 3,500 had perfect SAT math scores, 2,700 had perfect SAT verbal scores, and more than 8,000 had straight A’s."

So they have the cream to pick from - are you saying they have to take a percentage of race based on how many of that race apply?

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Well, that goes for many students - which is why they look for other aspects as well. I've got a valedictorian and salutatorian in the family. One got into a highly selective college. The other one didn't. Not all qualified students get into the college of their choice. That's life.



But I thought that the article stated that there were so many applicants with pretty much perfect records, perfect scores on SATs, that they could fill the entire class with perfect students:

"About 40,000 students apply each year, and about 2,000 are admitted for some 1,600 seats in the freshman class. The chances of admission this year were under 5 percent. Of the 26,000 domestic applicants for the Class of 2019 (the lawsuit is not concerned with international students), about 3,500 had perfect SAT math scores, 2,700 had perfect SAT verbal scores, and more than 8,000 had straight A’s."

So they have the cream to pick from - are you saying they have to take a percentage of race based on how many of that race apply?

I’m not saying they HAVE to do anything. The point is that one particular race is over-represented to the point they have said “no more, qualified or not”. How you feel about that is up to you, but I believe BCLA’s post about “transparency” applies here.

 

[DisneyOma]

I’m not saying they HAVE to do anything. The point is that one particular race is over-represented to the point they have said “no more, qualified or not”. How you feel about that is up to you, but I believe BCLA’s post about “transparency” applies here.

Still don't get it - they have to say no to a lot of students. They are saying yes to a lot of Asian American students, a much greater proportion than are represented in our national population. And since Harvard is accepting that greater proportion, I don't see why transparency is needed at all. Harvard is private, and this 'it's not fair' stuff is ridiculous, IMO. BTW, we are a legacy family, and neither of my girls wanted to go there.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Still don't get it - they have to say no to a lot of students. They are saying yes to a lot of Asian American students, a much greater proportion than are represented in our national population. And since Harvard is accepting that greater proportion, I don't see why transparency is needed at all. Harvard is private, and this 'it's not fair' stuff is ridiculous, IMO. BTW, we are a legacy family, and neither of my girls wanted to go there.

The reason transparency matters is because it’s important to be open and honest about something like admissions manipulation when you advertise yourself as accepting only the best of the best.

 

[tcufrog]

I wonder if a rich Asian family has to donate more than a rich white family to buy a spot in a Harvard freshman class.

 

[NYCgrrl]

It's a lawsuit and the merits have not yet been defended or discussed by the court system.
I'm interested in the allegations on many levels and will continue to follow the case.

FWIW, I'm an Ivy Leaguer, who is neither rich, white, a man, a legacy, or identified as Asian ethnicity (got cousins who could do that though), when I attended. I also paid my own way although received help from my father's death benefits. I thank him for inadvertently doing something useful.

 

[bcla]

The reason transparency matters is because it’s important to be open and honest about something like admissions manipulation when you advertise yourself as accepting only the best of the best.

I think it's been pretty obvious over the years that "highly selective" private universities have made extensive exceptions over the years for the children of deep pockets donors.

I'm all for admissions that seek to diversify admissions. Harvard and other similar schools have been known to have geographic diversity as one of their admissions criteria. However, the thing that really bothers many is that they seem to be using codewords in their admissions process to try and reduce the proportion of Asian-American kids being admitted as undergrads. There have been many Asian-American kids who were wondering why their white classmates with poorer grades, fewer extracurriculars, etc were getting into these same schools that were rejecting them.

It was pretty well established that Jewish kids were systematically prevented from being admitted to Harvard in proportions relative to their qualifications. I think they called it "The Harvard Plan" and back at that time they were upfront that they felt they had "too many Jews" and were deliberately marking down Jewish applicants.

 

[tcufrog]

Seriously, though I do worry about how being half Indian will affect my sons’ college chances. Hopefully this problem will be dealt with before they apply.

 

[NotUrsula]

You probably needn't worry about that; in US college admissions terms, South Asians don't normally fall victim to this pattern. What Harvard is weeding for is East Asian ethnicity, because that is what they feel they have a glut of in their applying cohort.

The reason that the plaintiff in this case has standing to sue is that Harvard is the recipient of a large swath of Federal Research Grant funding. If you take that money, you also agree to follow Federal anti-discrimination rules.

 

[bcla]

You probably needn't worry about that; in US college admissions terms, South Asians don't normally fall victim to this pattern. What Harvard is weeding for is East Asian ethnicity, because that is what they feel they have a glut of in their applying cohort.

The reason that the plaintiff in this case has standing to sue is that Harvard is the recipient of a large swath of Federal Research Grant funding. If you take that money, you also agree to follow Federal anti-discrimination rules.

Huh? Several of the complainants in this current complaint are Indian-American students and Indian-American organizations. Here are parts of the complaint:

https://www.chronicle.com/items/biz/pdf/Final Aisan Complaint Harvard Document 20150515.pdf
210. In recent years, The Harvard Crimson has been surveying incoming freshmen. In 2013, nearly 80% of the incoming class of 2017 responded to its survey. According to the survey, the average SAT of respondents was 2237 (on a 2400-scale), while the average SAT of individual ethnic groups varied widely: 2299 for East Asians and Indians, 2107 for African-Americans, and 2142 for Native Americans). Given this reporting, the average SAT for non-Hispanic Whites is at or somewhat below the overall median.

211. This class average (2237) corresponds to roughly the 99.5 percentile of the SAT, meaning that Harvard draws half of its class from students scoring in the top 1/2 of 1 percent of the SAT I distribution. The ‘East Asian and Indian’ average of 2299 corresponds to the 99.9 percentile of the SAT, meaning that Harvard draws about half of this ethnic group from the top 1/10 of 1 percent of the SAT I distribution. That is a dramatically higher standard of academic performance. Harvard requires much more of its Asian-American applicants than it requires of other races and ethnicities.​

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Update: There were protests on both sides today. Case comes to court tomorrow. Stay tuned.

https://www.wcvb.com/article/protests-held-ahead-of-harvard-admissions-lawsuit/23764320

 

[slpeters]

I'm curious to see how it all pans out. They're my alma mater and from where I sat they were always pretty upfront about the fact that building a diverse student body was one of the principal goals of the admission process--twenty-five years ago when I applied that was already very apparent. As far as the legacy and donor spots I feel like that was always a pretty open secret--I mean when I applied the application flat out asked you to list any alum relatives. I know there were probably people who bought their way in, but I also know that some of that was how Harvard managed to not only pick up my tuition but a significant potion of my room and board because my family couldn't afford it...,

 

[bcla]

I guess nobody commented on this after the lawsuit was decided in favor of Harvard, and then upheld on appeal to the First Circuit.

I was thinking of this because there was a lawsuit filed by the US Dept of Justice against Yale claiming that they discriminated against white and Asian students in admission.

https://apnews.com/article/justice-department-drops-yale-lawsuit-9587f156426b3cd905be373e41bb12d7

 

[MrsPete]

Gee is anyone surprised that being the son/daughter of a wealthy alumni donor gives you a boost?

What surprises me is that they freely admit this fact.

Be white and rich is not a secret.

Not really what the article says.

Getting an Ivy League education was never about education. It’s about making sure the haves & have nots maintain their proper stations.

Eh, the vast majority of "haves" don't get into Harvard. Sure, they have a higher acceptance rate than we peasants, but a very small percentage of Americans of any social class will get into Harvard.

I just looked it up, and apparently they reject 95% of their applicants.

What strikes me as wrong is that they advertise (advertise very heavily) that any admitted student whose family earns less than $65,000 can attend Harvard for free. We all know that grades and income tend to track together ... so I wonder just how many people actually take advantage of this "deal".

Not all qualified students get into the college of their choice. That's life.

Yes, I've been teaching high school a long time, and here in NC a large percentage of the top students want to get into UNC. Over and over I've seen students rejected even though they literally have never made a B, have taken loads of AP classes, and have top SAT scores. Students who have "just academics" are often rejected. They take kids who have top academics AND leadership AND unique stories. This often surprises those tip-top students, who figured their excellent academics made them a sure thing.