Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reaction and Discussion *CONTAINS SPOILERS*

[TheMaxRebo]

Luke had zero training between 4 and 5. He then spent about a week (generously 2 weeks?) with Yoda

Luke did some self study and I suppose got some words of wisdom from Ghost Obi Wan, but definitely no formal training until he meets Yoda - and how long he is there is a big discussion point - was it 2 days, 2 weeks, 2 months? But clearly not a ton

Now, what I do think they did better in Empire is that whatever training he has it isn't a ton and while he is able to look competent he does ultimately fail against Vader .... I think it would have been nice to see some level of failure from Rey to show she has to grow (doesn't have to be via the old way, but still needs to learn). In TFA she was battling a wounded Kylo so while I still would think a well trained Force user should have been able to beat her, at least there is some reasoning for it. She never really fights another Force user in TLJ so hard to know how she would stack up yet (other than obviously not being able to withstand Snoke)

 

[KaptKaveman]

Nope. I’m completely sincere. I loved the force awakens. I hated the last Jedi. And it’s not because “ I didn’t get the answers I liked” it’s because the answers sucked!

Concur completely. The presentation of the answers sucked too. Almost reminds me of a line from the opening of Naked Gun 2 1/2..... "In all fairness I backed over the last two with my car...... Luckily they turned out to be drug dealers...."

As I said the only way this made sense is if Rey was Luke’s kid and he trained her until she was 8 and then he Mind-wiped her and hid her on Jakku (the lightsaber sequence in The Force Awakens hints strongly at this, plus she’s an excellent pilot like Anakin and Luke).

This is sort of where I thought it was going as well. I didn't think she had to be Luke's, she could have been a nobody that Luke was drawn to and started training her more in favor of Kylo. This could have been what led to Kylo straying to the dark side or atleast what gave Snoke is opening with Kylo. But nope.... Mary Sue, because PLOT TWIST!

For the record

1. Empire Strikes Back (The first Star Wars movie I saw in the theatre, first movie I can remember watching where the bad guys game out on top at the end... realtively)
2. A New Hope
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3. Return of the Jedi (Sure the Ewoks were bad but still love the first parts with Jabba and then ending of the story arc)
4. Force Awakens (Yes yes it was strikingly similar to the first movie BUT at the time I thought JJ was doing this to bridge the gap between longtime fans and newer fans)
5. Rogue one (would be lower without the last 5 - 10 minutes of the movie)
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6. Revenge of the Sith (If anything good came out of the Prequels it was the expansion on the character of Obi Wan, if not for Mcgregor's Obi Wan this movie would have been garbage) Honestly think if the prequels would have been done as one movie with a combination of the best parts of each movie you would have a fairly good movie.
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7. Attack of the Clowns (see above for Revenge of the Sith, plus the Yoda fight versus Dooku, like the Kamino part too)
8. Phantom Menace (Holy crud, loved Star Wars coming back but Jar Jar and Brat Anakin were nearly too much to take get points for Qui Gon and Dart Maul)
9. Last Jedi (Dumpster Fire)

 

[Redcon1]

I'll ad my rankings for the mix.

1) Empire
2) New Hope
3) The Last Jedi (I may move this to the 2 spot, just haven't been able to bring myself to do it yet)
4) Rogue One
5) Force Awakens
6) Return of the Jedi
7) Revenge of the Sith
8) Phanton Menace
9) Attack of the Clones

Yours is very close to mine although I would flip-flop ROTJ with TFA. I think TFA is quite over-rated, most likely due to it being the first decent SW film since '83. I'm also of the belief that history will be kinder to TLJ than TFA.

 

[PrincessWithABlaster]

This is sort of where I thought it was going as well. I didn't think she had to be Luke's, she could have been a nobody that Luke was drawn to and started training her more in favor of Kylo. This could have been what led to Kylo straying to the dark side or atleast what gave Snoke is opening with Kylo. But nope.... Mary Sue, because PLOT TWIST!

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That would have been a really good idea. It could also be an explanation for the connection Kylo and Rey have. It could have explained the lightsaber. It would have been a better explanation of the turn to the dark side than ‘I felt like murdering my nephew, and why Leia seems to know her. All while still allowing Johnson to have his desired plot point that she did not come from Jedi royalty. It would have been a nice call back to Obi Wan protecting Luke and Leia.

Sad. What a waste of good mysteries and ideas. Supposedly Mark Hamill had a conversation where he told Johnson that he had 150 bad ideas that he would love to tell him because maybe one would spark a better idea in him than what he did with Luke. I wish Johnson had listened to him.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Luke did some self study and I suppose got some words of wisdom from Ghost Obi Wan, but definitely no formal training until he meets Yoda - and how long he is there is a big discussion point - was it 2 days, 2 weeks, 2 months? But clearly not a ton

Now, what I do think they did better in Empire is that whatever training he has it isn't a ton and while he is able to look competent he does ultimately fail against Vader .... I think it would have been nice to see some level of failure from Rey to show she has to grow (doesn't have to be via the old way, but still needs to learn). In TFA she was battling a wounded Kylo so while I still would think a well trained Force user should have been able to beat her, at least there is some reasoning for it. She never really fights another Force user in TLJ so hard to know how she would stack up yet (other than obviously not being able to withstand Snoke)

Yup. This is something I mentioned as well -- our whole family thinks Rey is just TOO perfect, without enough training -- and now also supposedly without even a JEDI ROYALTY bloodline -- to justify it.

And it's even more than that... there's something that feels like an inconsistency just WITHIN TLJ: she resists Kylo's offer to join him SO easily -- no conflict... even though with Luke, she goes "straight to the darkness" (or some such line) during her 2-minute "training". Meh. Not very tight from a story perspective to me.

 

[mcjaco]

Yup. This is something I mentioned as well -- our whole family thinks Rey is just TOO perfect, without enough training -- and now also supposedly without even a JEDI ROYALTY bloodline -- to justify it.

And it's even more than that... there's something that feels like an inconsistency just WITHIN TLJ: she resists Kylo's offer to join him SO easily -- no conflict... even though with Luke, she goes "straight to the darkness" (or some such line) during her 2-minute "training". Meh. Not very tight from a story perspective to me.

She went straight to the darkness in hopes of maybe finding her parents. Whereas she wholeheartedly does not agree with Kylo's methods. At least that's my take on it. Then again, I don't think too deeply about any of this, since it's a movie series with so many plot holes throughout....

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Yup. This is something I mentioned as well -- our whole family thinks Rey is just TOO perfect, without enough training -- and now also supposedly without even a JEDI ROYALTY bloodline -- to justify it.

And it's even more than that... there's something that feels like an inconsistency just WITHIN TLJ: she resists Kylo's offer to join him SO easily -- no conflict... even though with Luke, she goes "straight to the darkness" (or some such line) during her 2-minute "training". Meh. Not very tight from a story perspective to me.

Well, there has to be a first of that Jedi Royalty - Anakin wasn't part of Jedi royalty until he started it ... but I get it and agree with her being a bit perfect. Might have been part of why she challenges what Luke says and is willing to explore the dark side and stuff ... so at least she is a bit disobedient (though, it doesn't really cost her anything so not sure if any lessons were learned)

As for your last point, it is later in the movie and she had the other encounters with Kylo beforehand so I think she was more prepared for either him turning to join her, them doing something separate together or not agreeing with his "kill everything from the past" mentality. And also I think by that point she had come to terms a bit with her whole "who are my parents?" thing - as that is what drove her to be willing to explore the dark side, she wanted to know that

 

[pmaurer74]

Yup. This is something I mentioned as well -- our whole family thinks Rey is just TOO perfect, without enough training -- and now also supposedly without even a JEDI ROYALTY bloodline -- to justify it.

And it's even more than that... there's something that feels like an inconsistency just WITHIN TLJ: she resists Kylo's offer to join him SO easily -- no conflict... even though with Luke, she goes "straight to the darkness" (or some such line) during her 2-minute "training". Meh. Not very tight from a story perspective to me.

I would resist Kylo's offer to join him as well if he was willing to let everyone I cared about die especially since she has no one else.

 

[umichigan10]

I would resist Kylo's offer to join him as well if he was willing to let everyone I cared about die especially since she has no one else.

Although I will say that “let the past die” and his whole spiel could be a nice segue for any potential future breakups anyone has planned. Maybe even include a lightsaber duel afterwards too

 

[pmaurer74]

I just wish everyone would wait until the last movie and give the whole story a chance. There are likely things in that movie that will pull things together (I hope). I have a friend that has a very interesting theory about Snoke that if true would be an interesting twist and explain a lot. I am not going to say what it is because it is WAY out there but I have not seen this theory from anyone yet. I think Rey did fail. She failed to turn Ben to the light side and she was naive to think she could turn anyone... they have to do it themselves. I think she likely will fail big time and likely severely injured in the last movie.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

I hear what some are saying about Rey to explain her perfection -- I just don't think it held together all that well. Went to the darkness to find out about her parents?? OK. Resisted an offer to RULE THE GALAXY with no real training because she was protecting people she basically just met a little while ago? OK. She failed to turn Kylo? I guess I missed her really trying. OK. Meh.

I leave room for the possibility that this will all be tied up in a satisfying bow with the next film. Just seems like a tall order. Not just with Rey and her story, but without Luke/Leia, with the inconsistencies between 7-8, etc.

But as I've said, I still liked TLJ on balance, and will certainly see the next one. There are still several things that I think made it a far better individual movie than a piece of a 9-movie Skywalker saga (especially if you cut out the whole Finn/Rose section, IMO). But there's only so much I'll ever get worked up about a movie. Bigger fish to fry and all.

 

[skier_pete]

I will admit this - the ease with which Rey uses the force in BOTH movies is a little beyond anything we've seen before. Even in TPM young Anakin who is supposed to be off-the-chart strong in the force isn't floating stuff through the air. This would indicate she is by far the most powerful force-wielder that anyone has ever seen. Luke compares him to Kylo, who has certainly had a lot of training (between Luke and then Snoke) and is able to do some pretty impressive things. (Remember he is reading minds in TFA.)

However, it is also repeatedly pointed out that the Force appears to have been "triggered" in her. (This is pre-TLJ.) TFA shows her being much surprised at her abilities as they happen. This makes me wonder if she is the TRUE "chosen one" that Anakin was mistaken for. That would indeed explain her instant abilities.

And I hate to point this out to all the haters, but it's hard to blame Rian Johnson solely for the things that are perceived as "bad" here. He ran all these things through the Lucasfilm brain-trust and it all was approved. The fact that Rey is a "super Jedi" came well before he came along. So it's unlikely you are going to start liking these movies again.

Maybe the reason I enjoy this - even being a Star Wars fan - is that I realize that it's a flipping movie. I take each movie on it's own for it's entertainment value. I can see the point above that Rey's character does not really "fit" with what has gone before, but in the end it doesn't bother me. (And I think that kid force-pulling the broom at the end may be the best ending to a Star Wars movie period.) I listen to all the arguments and then I go back and think "Nope, still loved the movie". I must be pretty stupid.

 

[skier_pete]

Yup. This is something I mentioned as well -- our whole family thinks Rey is just TOO perfect, without enough training -- and now also supposedly without even a JEDI ROYALTY bloodline -- to justify it..

I don't get so many talking about inherited Jedi powers. There's literally only ONE family in the entire galaxy in which it was known to be inherited - the Skywalkers - and that's only for 3 generations. No other Jedi that we know of became a Jedi or Sith because of their parents. This is the world of Harry Potter we are talking about.

All this discussion sort of makes me wish there were no Skywalkers' in this new trilogy.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

I don't get so many talking about inherited Jedi powers. There's literally only ONE family in the entire galaxy in which it was known to be inherited - the Skywalkers - and that's only for 3 generations.

Yeah. Ok. The ONE this saga is about. The bloodline of “the chosen one”. Which MIGHT justify harnessing the force with basically no training the way Rey does.

That was my point — that perhaps the special “chosen one” bloodline could justify Rey being so strong with essentially no training. Without that, her character seems a tad ridiculous to me. Chosen One - Part Two as an explanation — eesh... to me. My point was never that all jedis inherit their powers.

Meh. I’m talked out on this one. Just a movie.

 

[jknezek]

I will admit this - the ease with which Rey uses the force in BOTH movies is a little beyond anything we've seen before. Even in TPM young Anakin who is supposed to be off-the-chart strong in the force isn't floating stuff through the air. This would indicate she is by far the most powerful force-wielder that anyone has ever seen. Luke compares him to Kylo, who has certainly had a lot of training (between Luke and then Snoke) and is able to do some pretty impressive things. (Remember he is reading minds in TFA.)

However, it is also repeatedly pointed out that the Force appears to have been "triggered" in her. (This is pre-TLJ.) TFA shows her being much surprised at her abilities as they happen. This makes me wonder if she is the TRUE "chosen one" that Anakin was mistaken for. That would indeed explain her instant abilities.

For all intents and purposes Annakin fulfilled his role as the chosen one. He was to bring balance to The Force and at the end of the prequels, there are 2 Sith, one the master of the order and the other a great weapon. There are 2 Jedi, one a master of the order and the other a great leader. Before Annakin the light side was dominant for thousands of years. Annakin brought balance, just not the way the Jedi expected. Later we learn Maul survived for a while, as did Ahsoka. In Rebels we see a few more Force users, but it's always pretty much in balance. It's one of the few redeeming qualities of the prequels is Annakin fulfilled the prophesy in an entirely entertaining and twisted way. If only the stories themselves had been so clever...

And I hate to point this out to all the haters, but it's hard to blame Rian Johnson solely for the things that are perceived as "bad" here. He ran all these things through the Lucasfilm brain-trust and it all was approved. The fact that Rey is a "super Jedi" came well before he came along. So it's unlikely you are going to start liking these movies again.

Yeah. I've made it quite clear that I think Kathleen Kennedy failed horribly at her job. She would be gone for this debacle if it was up to me. Fortunately for her, it's not up to me.

Maybe the reason I enjoy this - even being a Star Wars fan - is that I realize that it's a flipping movie. I take each movie on it's own for it's entertainment value. I can see the point above that Rey's character does not really "fit" with what has gone before, but in the end it doesn't bother me. (And I think that kid force-pulling the broom at the end may be the best ending to a Star Wars movie period.) I listen to all the arguments and then I go back and think "Nope, still loved the movie". I must be pretty stupid.

It is just a movie. But whereas you go back and say "nope, still loved the movie" I got back and say, "nope, that was a truly terrible addition to canon." It's not a matter of stupidity, it's just an opinion.

 

[TomServo27]

For all intents and purposes Annakin fulfilled his role as the chosen one. He was to bring balance to The Force and at the end of the prequels, there are 2 Sith, one the master of the order and the other a great weapon. There are 2 Jedi, one a master of the order and the other a great leader. Before Annakin the light side was dominant for thousands of years. Annakin brought balance, just not the way the Jedi expected. Later we learn Maul survived for a while, as did Ahsoka. In Rebels we see a few more Force users, but it's always pretty much in balance. It's one of the few redeeming qualities of the prequels is Annakin fulfilled the prophesy in an entirely entertaining and twisted way. If only the stories themselves had been so clever...

Anakin brought balance to the force by killing the emperor and himself. And saving Luke.

 

[jknezek]

Anakin brought balance to the force by killing the emperor and himself. And saving Luke.

How is it possible to bring balance to something by destroying one entire side to the equation? That makes no sense and never has. The two sides to the Force are Light and Dark. You can't have balance if there is only Light or only Dark. Heck, even TLJ brings this up. It might be the only? useful explanation of canon given in the entire film.

The prophecy was a function of the prequels, not the OT.

 

[umichigan10]

How is it possible to bring balance to something by destroying one entire side to the equation? That makes no sense and never has. The two sides to the Force are Light and Dark. You can't have balance if there is only Light or only Dark. Heck, even TLJ brings this up. It might be the only? useful explanation of canon given in the entire film.

The prophecy was a function of the prequels, not the OT.

Because one side outnumbered the other vastly. The sith has rule of two and the Jedi has dozens if not hundreds of followers

 

[jknezek]

Because one side outnumbered the other vastly. The sith has rule of two and the Jedi has dozens if not hundreds of followers

Not at the end of Revenge of the Sith. At the end, there is 1 Emperor, 1 Jedi Grand Master. 1 Apprentice, 1 Jedi Master. That is balance. That is what Annakin did by destroying the Jedi. He brought balance. At the end of Return of the Jedi there is 1 Jedi, no dark side. Until some point in the future where Luke tries to make more Jedi and Snoke appears. But again, this is between 30 and 50 years after the Chosen One completed his prophecy.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Because one side outnumbered the other vastly. The sith has rule of two and the Jedi has dozens if not hundreds of followers

Well, that's only after Darth Bane formally instituted the rule of 2 - before that there were also tons of Sith (with tons of infighting which led to the rule of 2) ... so theoretically there was "balance" then as there were a ton on north sides