Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reaction and Discussion *CONTAINS SPOILERS*

[umichigan10]

I said crazy...didn't I? Understood.

As far as fisher...that was beyond a huge mistake...the could have used stock footage and body doubles do stage her shoving someone out of the airlock and pushing a button...

Also...since they bothered showing a hidden xwing...luck could have met the survivors on the falcon and led them to sanctuary after the ren diception...nothing had to change.

I think that's a catastrophic mistake...it's all on Kathy kennedy...some
Mistakes can't be undone

I will say the x wing in the water thing confuses me. I guess you could say it’s misdirection for his force projection thing but I think it could’ve been a bigger plot device, like as you said meeting up at the end etc.

I didn’t even mind how the movie ended, but I would’ve been ok with a different route too

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I will say the x wing in the water thing confuses me. I guess you could say it’s misdirection for his force projection thing but I think it could’ve been a bigger plot device, like as you said meeting up at the end etc.

I didn’t even mind how the movie ended, but I would’ve been ok with a different route too

I agree about the x-wing - especially being in water it seemed like a call back the Empire when Yoda raised Luke's x-wing out of the swamp

Maybe it wasn't just to foreshadow about Yoda's Force ghost appearing. Maybe we find out more in Episode IX. Maybe it's nothing

 

[Iowamomof4]

I often feel like I'm a page or two behind, but George Lucas really lost me not because of the prequels but rather because of the way he kept tinkering with the OT. My guess is he made it clear in the contract when he sold Lucasfilm to Disney that the OT as it was at the time of the sale (as in all edited/Greedo shoots first/etc...) is the way they must stay forever. I don't think we'll ever get a release of the OT as they were when they were first shown in theaters in 77, 80, and 83 and that is a real shame.

 

[ShadeDK]

These days with people who were kids and suffering from nostalgia, there would be a market for Luke merchandise if he wasn’t such a mess (I might even buy a t-shirt of his image when he was projecting). If Disney doesn’t know that there are 40-something’s who would buy Star Wars items, they need to re-read the owners manual on this property they bought because they’re missing a few features.

Speaking of missing a few features - I had some Luke action figures as a kid that may have lost a hand after I saw ESB. My parents were not thrilled about that, although they still laugh about it decades later.

And Disney is aware - take a look in Launch Bay at the high end items. I'm not a collector myself, but I do know people who buy the highly detailed figures that retail for about $300. Each.

Also...since they bothered showing a hidden xwing...luke could have met the survivors on the falcon and led them to sanctuary after the ren deception...nothing had to change.

The submerged X-wing bothered me but for a completely different (SW nerd) reason. Luke is on a remote planet accessible by hyperspace. Although X-wings are long range, they don't carry on-board navigation - that's one of the many reasons they have astromechs - which handle the navigation and light speed calculations. R2 wasn't onboard - and no indication of any other astromech on the island. So it wasn't exactly clear to me how he got there in an X-wing without navigation or hyperspace capabilities. Was this detail the least bit important to 99.9% of viewers? Nope. But showing the submerged X-wing wasn't necessary anyway - if they were trying to convey the idea that Luke intended to stay put by putting his X-wing underwater, well - we've already seen that underwater X-wings aren't a big challenge for Jedi Masters to retrieve. Was it sleight of hand to "explain" how he got to Crait before the twist? Maybe - but not a good one. I'd have just left the X-wing out entirely.

 

[Iowamomof4]

Speaking of missing a few features - I had some Luke action figures as a kid that may have lost a hand after I saw ESB. My parents were not thrilled about that, although they still laugh about it decades later.

And Disney is aware - take a look in Launch Bay at the high end items. I'm not a collector myself, but I do know people who buy the highly detailed figures that retail for about $300. Each.

The submerged X-wing bothered me but for a completely different (SW nerd) reason. Luke is on a remote planet accessible by hyperspace. Although X-wings are long range, they don't carry on-board navigation - that's one of the many reasons they have astromechs - which handle the navigation and light speed calculations. R2 wasn't onboard - and no indication of any other astromech on the island. So it wasn't exactly clear to me how he got there in an X-wing without navigation or hyperspace capabilities. Was this detail the least bit important to 99.9% of viewers? Nope. But showing the submerged X-wing wasn't necessary anyway - if they were trying to convey the idea that Luke intended to stay put by putting his X-wing underwater, well - we've already seen that underwater X-wings aren't a big challenge for Jedi Masters to retrieve. Was it sleight of hand to "explain" how he got to Crait before the twist? Maybe - but not a good one. I'd have just left the X-wing out entirely.

I could be wrong, but I think the compass in his hut might be how he was able to navigate in an x-wing without a droid.

 

[PrincessWithABlaster]

Speaking of missing a few features - I had some Luke action figures as a kid that may have lost a hand after I saw ESB. My parents were not thrilled about that, although they still laugh about it decades later.

And Disney is aware - take a look in Launch Bay at the high end items. I'm not a collector myself, but I do know people who buy the highly detailed figures that retail for about $300. Each.

The submerged X-wing bothered me but for a completely different (SW nerd) reason. Luke is on a remote planet accessible by hyperspace. Although X-wings are long range, they don't carry on-board navigation - that's one of the many reasons they have astromechs - which handle the navigation and light speed calculations. R2 wasn't onboard - and no indication of any other astromech on the island. So it wasn't exactly clear to me how he got there in an X-wing without navigation or hyperspace capabilities. Was this detail the least bit important to 99.9% of viewers? Nope. But showing the submerged X-wing wasn't necessary anyway - if they were trying to convey the idea that Luke intended to stay put by putting his X-wing underwater, well - we've already seen that underwater X-wings aren't a big challenge for Jedi Masters to retrieve. Was it sleight of hand to "explain" how he got to Crait before the twist? Maybe - but not a good one. I'd have just left the X-wing out entirely.

Hmmm. Good points. I would think it wouldn’t be too far of a stretch to say that he Force navigated there. But one of the things they didn’t explain well was why there was a map and how or why R2 had it. Maybe R2 was with him for a time. Not sure how he would then have gotten home (some subplot involving Maz that also explained how she got the lightsaber maybe). I though the x-wing was just a call back to ESB. I agree it wasn’t very useful in the story.

 

[jade1]

So it wasn't exactly clear to me how he got there in an X-wing without navigation or hyperspace capabilities. Was this detail the least bit important to 99.9% of viewers? Nope. But showing the submerged X-wing wasn't necessary anyway - if they were trying to convey the idea that Luke intended to stay put by putting his X-wing underwater, well - we've already seen that underwater X-wings aren't a big challenge for Jedi Masters to retrieve. Was it sleight of hand to "explain" how he got to Crait before the twist? Maybe - but not a good one. I'd have just left the X-wing out entirely.

Interesting. So I guess when he and Leia communicated his only timely option was a possible projection to offer any help.

 

[pmaurer74]

Speaking of missing a few features - I had some Luke action figures as a kid that may have lost a hand after I saw ESB. My parents were not thrilled about that, although they still laugh about it decades later.

And Disney is aware - take a look in Launch Bay at the high end items. I'm not a collector myself, but I do know people who buy the highly detailed figures that retail for about $300. Each.

The submerged X-wing bothered me but for a completely different (SW nerd) reason. Luke is on a remote planet accessible by hyperspace. Although X-wings are long range, they don't carry on-board navigation - that's one of the many reasons they have astromechs - which handle the navigation and light speed calculations. R2 wasn't onboard - and no indication of any other astromech on the island. So it wasn't exactly clear to me how he got there in an X-wing without navigation or hyperspace capabilities. Was this detail the least bit important to 99.9% of viewers? Nope. But showing the submerged X-wing wasn't necessary anyway - if they were trying to convey the idea that Luke intended to stay put by putting his X-wing underwater, well - we've already seen that underwater X-wings aren't a big challenge for Jedi Masters to retrieve. Was it sleight of hand to "explain" how he got to Crait before the twist? Maybe - but not a good one. I'd have just left the X-wing out entirely.

He did use part of the wing as his door to his hut. Maybe it was to demonstrate his intent that he was there permanently and not going anywhere.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Maybe it was to demonstrate his intent that he was there permanently and not going anywhere.

That was my thought.

 

[sachilles]

I feel like Rey will go back there and resurrect it. The resistance is decimated. They need every ship they can muster.

 

[Iowamomof4]

I don't think we'll ever see Ahch-To in a movie again. They rarely revisit planets anyway and now that Luke is gone and the books are gone, why would they go back?

 

[jknezek]

I don't think we'll ever see Ahch-To in a movie again. They rarely revisit planets anyway and now that Luke is gone and the books are gone, why would they go back?

Because the caretakers were the funniest part of the movie?

 

[sachilles]

....and they need an x wing....especially one with provenance.

 

[TomServo27]

I often feel like I'm a page or two behind, but George Lucas really lost me not because of the prequels but rather because of the way he kept tinkering with the OT. My guess is he made it clear in the contract when he sold Lucasfilm to Disney that the OT as it was at the time of the sale (as in all edited/Greedo shoots first/etc...) is the way they must stay forever. I don't think we'll ever get a release of the OT as they were when they were first shown in theaters in 77, 80, and 83 and that is a real shame.

I feel like if anyone was trying to kill my childhood it was Lucas with the crap he did to the OT. I was hoping with the purchase of Fox they could release the original New Hope.

 

[DVCcurious]

OK - you are just pulling our legs now, eh?

Nope. I’m completely sincere. I loved the force awakens. I hated the last Jedi. And it’s not because “ I didn’t get the answers I liked” it’s because the answers sucked!

How good would Empire have been if they killed Vader in the middle of it? The big bad mysterious villain... and they kill him with no backstory, no explanation of who he is? Why even introduce Snoke as a character? He had literally no impact on the plot of either movie. You could have had the same story without Snoke existing.

The Force Awakens had a coherent plot, you cared about Rey and Finn (not so much Poe). You could believe Finn’s obsession with saving Rey as she was the first “real” person he’d ever had any connection with. Rey is waiting for her family to return to give her life purpose. “The belonging you seek isn’t behind you, but in front of you.” Powerful stuff that shows you the motivation of the 2 main characters. He wants to run, she wants to belong. He finds his reason to stay in her, she finds her “home” is with the rebellion. Emotionally fulfilling story.

The Last Jedi was this big “fake out” movie. You thought Snoke was powerful? Fake out! You thought Rey must have learned the force young to be so proficient? Fake out! You thought Luke would train Rey? Fake out! You thought The First Order was crippled after Starkiller Base was destroyed? Fake out!

The problem isn’t that I disliked the answers. The problem is the answers suck.

It takes Luke 3 years of training between 4 and 5 to be able to move his lightsaber in the Yeti cave. But some stupid kid can move a broom with no training? And you think that’s good writing?

Star Wars has years of back story and “rules”. You don’t just become a Jedi by accident, it takes years of focused training. The Last Jedi craps all over that. It says anyone can do what Jedi do without putting in the effort. It takes the Star Wars mythology and throws it out the window. And you think that’s good writing?

And when I watched The Force Awakens I was going under the assumption Rey had significant Force training that she had forgotten about. Like she was Lukes kid who was trained until she was 8 and then Kylo rebelled and Luke “mind wiped” Rey and left her on Jakku to protect her. And when the time was right he’d finish her training. So now that I know that was not what happened and Rey is just “magically awesome” with no study or effort I think TFA kinda sucks too.

 

[DVCcurious]

Why was there a negative reaction? Was there something wrong with the movie itself? The cannon?

Yes. The Last Jedi craps all over Star Wars lore.

As far as I’m concerned, this movie killed Star Wars. If anyone can use the Force why were there ever Jedi? Or a Jedi Academy? This movie destroys everything that was built over 40 years.

Why should I care now? The whole thing is a freaking deus ex machina. I’m sure in Episode 9 everyone will be Jedi! Yippee! Everyone gets a trophy! There are no skill inequalities!

On Episode 4 why didn’t Luke walk around his farm using the Force? I mean The Last Jedi says anyone can use it at any time. When Luke is running around on Cloud City what is he holding? His blaster. Jedi don’t carry blasters so why did Luke have one? Because he was NOT A JEDI! “The Force is with you young Skywalker, but you are not a Jedi yet”. After 3 years of training plus a month with Yoda!

Episodes 1-6 plus the EU tell us Jedi must have years of focused training from a very young age. At age 9 Anakin was too old to begin training because he already missed too much time. However, since Anakin was “special” with his midichlorian count he was able to overcome the late start. In Attack of the Clones Anakin has 8 years of experience learning under a Jedi Knight. In Empire Strikes Back Luke had 3 years of training. He still has trouble moving rocks! In Return of the Jedi Luke has 6 years of training and he is finally a Jedi Knight who can consistently do Jedi things (the sarlac pit sequence). It took 6 years of training for Luke to use the Jedi Mind Trick.

Rey does the Jedi Mind Trick with no training. She’s proficient with a lightsaber, she can resist the mind power of a trained Sith with 10 years of experience! As I said the only way this made sense is if Rey was Luke’s kid and he trained her until she was 8 and then he Mind-wiped her and hid her on Jakku (the lightsaber sequence in The Force Awakens hints strongly at this, plus she’s an excellent pilot like Anakin and Luke).

But she’s related to nobody? Why the &+|^ did she hear Obi-Wan’s voice? Why not Kit Fisto? It makes no sense!

The movie tries so hard to play Gotcha! that it ends up sucking.

Frankly we’re going the way of Itchy and Scratchy: “when you see something inconsistent, a wizard did it”

 

[DVCcurious]

I’m beating this horse dead but one last point:

If A New Hope was written using The Last Jedi “rules” then when Luke saw Kenobi and Vader dueling he would have walked over and cut Vader in half with one blow. After all he trained against a remote on the Millenium Falcon which is way more training than Rey had. If she was able to beat a Sith in a lightsaber duel with no training then Luke would definitely have won after a couple hours of training.


Anakin: I don’t understand.
Qui-Gon: with time and training, Anakin, you will.

Gee, I guess that means Jedi who lived around Yavin-30 must be really weak since they needed time and training, whereas people who live Yavin +35 can be proficient with no time or training!

 

[skier_pete]

How good would Empire have been if they killed Vader in the middle of it? The big bad mysterious villain... and they kill him with no backstory, no explanation of who he is? Why even introduce Snoke as a character? He had literally no impact on the plot of either movie. You could have had the same story without Snoke existing.

Pretty sure that Snoke is the equivalent of the emperor - NOT Vader. And I very, very much remember a LOT of fan complaints when ESB and especially RotJ came out, people complained that Vader had been the big bad of Episode IV, but suddenly the Emperor was the big bad and Vader was just a lap dog and it neutered Vader in a lot of fans eyes (at the time).

That said, I understand the hate for TLJ. I just don't agree with it.

It takes Luke 3 years of training between 4 and 5 to be able to move his lightsaber in the Yeti cave. But some stupid kid can move a broom with no training? And you think that’s good writing?

I was always under the impression (at least when I was a kid) that Luke had zero training between 4 and 5. He then spent about a week (generously 2 weeks?) with Yoda, and then between 5 and 6 "completed his training", again completely by himself. (The implications in 6 are he never went back to Yoda until he stopped there after rescuing Han.) Really it's the PREQUELS that started saying "Oh you need to be trained from the age of 3 in order to be a Jedi." and put all these rigorous rules and midichlorians and all that BS.

 

[jknezek]

It takes Luke 3 years of training between 4 and 5 to be able to move his lightsaber in the Yeti cave. But some stupid kid can move a broom with no training? And you think that’s good writing?

Star Wars has years of back story and “rules”. You don’t just become a Jedi by accident, it takes years of focused training. The Last Jedi craps all over that. It says anyone can do what Jedi do without putting in the effort. It takes the Star Wars mythology and throws it out the window. And you think that’s good writing?

I think this is very fair criticism. Canon does put 3 years between ANH and ESB, a period where the Marvel comics take place. Luke does do a lot of independent study during this time. BUT... canon does go back and forth on "accidental magic". Luke has to be coached into feeling the Force by Obi-won, which is the reason he can then feel it in the X-wing at the end of ANH. He does struggle with training in ESB and gets cut to pieces by Vader. When you compare that to Rey it is aggravating. However, in the prequels, Annakin is not coached into feeling the Force BUT Qui-gon implies that the only way he is competitive in the pod race is because he is using it instinctively. So there is room for accidental magic, but it's not real strong on using the physical side of the Force, more on early stage "let it guide you" type of stuff. There is also, I think, either six months or a year between ESB and RotJ, so again, Luke can incorporate his training with self study for a period of time. Since the total timeline of TFA and TLJ is probably less than a month, you just can't say the same about Rey.

So the kid with the broom isn't total anathema, it's just Johnson wanting to beat a topic into our heads that has limited support. I don't think the point is "anyone can use the Force." I'll be surprised if they go this way. I think they are just pointing out you don't have to be a Skywalker or related to a Jedi family to have the Force. This is 100% canon, as Jedi were forbidden attachments and didn't have kids (I think the Ruusan Reformation was mentioned in Clone Wars, making it canon, but regardless canon is quite clear on Annakin and Padme). Over thousands of years they would have bred the Force out of existence if it didn't spontaneously manifest on a regular basis in new kids. Plus they wouldn't have to go looking for Force sensitive kids, they could just track families. So I have no problem whatsoever with random kids developing a connection, I would have a huge problem if all kids developed a connection.

I do think there is room for a lot of complaints about TLJ. In my opinion Johnson took too many liberties with canon. But again, Star Wars has never been the most orthodox of canons because so many fingers have stirred the plot. Sure there are 2 trilogies with Lucas's fingerprints, but those total around 12 hours of story. There are over 30 hours of Clone Wars shows, around 20 hours of Rebels, many comic episodes, some novels... all canon without dipping into the now defunct EU. So there is wiggle room and fans need to accept that so many viewpoints have impacted the canon that a single orthodox interpretation is almost impossible.

Ruining Luke, however, is still unforgivable.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

If A New Hope was written using The Last Jedi “rules” then when Luke saw Kenobi and Vader dueling he would have walked over and cut Vader in half with one blow. After all he trained against a remote on the Millenium Falcon which is way more training than Rey had. If she was able to beat a Sith in a lightsaber duel with no training then Luke would definitely have won after a couple hours of training.

Well, if Vader had been shot by a Wookie bowcaster and already been through one duel then Luke may have been able to do some damage - but Vader was fresh in ANH so very different situation. Plus, Snoke makes it clear that "Kylo is no Vader". And Ray spent her life fighting for herself to survive, etc and is clearly much more of a "fighter" than Luke is at the beginning of ANH

Plus it is just a different time - During the prequels it is at the height of the Jedi order so all the training was very structured, etc. and then even in ANH that is still what Obi-wan grew up in .... whereas Luke has now spent 30 years on his own contemplating things, trying the formal training again and seeing issues with it, etc. - so i think that is the point: The Jedi methods of the past are maybe not the way to go.