Childless By Choice

[DLgal]

I really don't understand how having kids to give back to society became part of the conversation. I don't know anyone who had kids, because they felt pressure to give back to society. That's a totally foreign concept to me.

Just to address this point, having kids is how societies continue on, so it's kind of necessary. When you are old and collecting social security or use Medicare, you are being supported by the younger generation of taxpayers. This is why the fertility rate of a country is so important and why, when it falls to levels too low to be considered "replacement", governments start to worry. This is a big issue in Japan, currently.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

Good luck! At least you've got a shot that one of them will do their duty. I've got all my proverbial eggs in one rather precarious basket and I pray daily DS marries a merciful woman!

Good luck!

I will say if you wouldn’t want kids b/c they would ruin your figure then you are most likely not going to be happy with the millions of other sacrifices that will be required. So, in that case, I think that’s just having good insight. But, perhaps, that’s what the pp meant that the person would be unhappy with making other sacrifices.

I disagree. Not wanting to wreck my body, both in the attractive-figure sense and in regards to the physical and medical issues that can occur as a result of pregnancy/delivery, was concern #1 for me when I considered having a child. I liked the body I had, both in appearance and health, and I didn’t want to lose it. That might be a selfish thought, but no worse than thinking “I like my financial status, I don’t want to be poor” or “I like my house, I don’t want to lose it in a fire.” Technically speaking, self-preservation is selfish. But it’s also just good sense and not something to be viewed negatively.

At the same time, I don’t consider motherhood to be a sacrifice. My son brings added value to my life, not “millions of sacrifices.” And I still care what my body looks like.

That's totally bizarre. I've never known anyone that admits to finding that attractive. If my DH suddenly gained 100 lbs., I'm sure I'd still find him attractive. That's looking through "love" glasses. I can't imagine finding anyone that I didn't love attractive under those circumstances.

ETA: Maybe, they're thinking about a man looking his age vs. a man that obsessed over his body & appearance in an attempt to appear younger. I don't find men with excessive muscles attractive, but that's a personal preference. That doesn't mean all women feel that way.

The dad bod thing took off a few years ago. Men were suddenly being celebrated for having less fit, flabbier physiques. Women, not so much.

I've never judged anyone who doesn't want to have kids. That's their choice & I respect it. As I mentioned earlier, I used to be one of them. I just have a problem with anyone saying people who choose to have kids are selfish. For the vast majority of people, having kids means they will no longer be the center of attention. They also won't have the amount of disposable income they once had to spend on themselves. How could anyone think that's a selfish decision? It's not an act of selfishness. It's an act of love.

Every single person who chooses to bring a child into this world is doing so for reasons that fulfill some desire within themselves. It is for *their* benefit. They want to have a family, they want to experience the parent-child relationship, they want someone to take care of them in old age, they want to continue the family line.... Is there any reason* for having a child that doesn’t begin with “I want”?

*I’m not referring to women who aren’t given the freedom to make their own reproductive choices. That’s an entirely different topic.

 

[Hikergirl]

We are all being selfish when we make decisions based on what we want or don't want.
Being selfish isn't always a bad thing, it isn't always a negative trait. There isn't always something wrong with being selfish.

 

[kdonnel]

I really don't understand how having kids to give back to society became part of the conversation. I don't know anyone who had kids, because they felt pressure to give back to society. That's a totally foreign concept to me.

Why do you think governments give tax breaks for having children? Tax breaks are often given as a way for the government to encourage certain activities. In this case procreation.

 

[Darcy03231]

DS#1 and his wife are childless by choice and very happy with their decision. I'm happy for them. They have a very busy life, are healthy and happy. That's all I want for them.

 

[Hikergirl]

Why do you think governments give tax breaks for having children? Tax breaks are often given as a way for the government to encourage certain activities. In this case procreation.

Do you have any data showing that is why?

 

[kdonnel]

Do you have any data showing that is why?

No data for this specific tax break but doesn't everyone understand that tax breaks and subsidies are there to encourage behaviors?

Tax breaks are used to encourage procreation, buying houses, going to college, to encourage some to work, etc.....

https://www.marketplace.org/2017/12/21/tax-shape-behavior-what-to-look-for/

Tax incentives, which include deductions and credits, have been a long standing part of the tax code – often benefiting individuals who buy homes, get married, and have children.

Kai Ryssdal: So there is a word a lot of people use for the tax code: social engineering, is what a lot of people call it.

Just google "tax social engineering" and there are lots of articles explaining the hows and whys.

Here is one that dates back to 1985.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-06-08-8502060183-story.html

 

[GrnMtnMan]

Do you have any data showing that is why?

https://www.usdebtclock.org/

 

[Hikergirl]

No data for this specific tax break but doesn't everyone understand that tax breaks and subsidies are there to encourage behaviors?

Tax breaks are used to encourage procreation, buying houses, going to college, to encourage some to work, etc.....

https://www.marketplace.org/2017/12/21/tax-shape-behavior-what-to-look-for/





Just google "tax social engineering" and there are lots of articles explaining the hows and whys.

Here is one that dates back to 1985.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-06-08-8502060183-story.html

You asked what we thought and I think the child tax credit was not implemented specifically to encourage procreation but rather to help low and middle income earners who have children. And yes it does encourage certain behavior- more money to spend on their family therefore helping our economy.
I'm not finding anything on Google stating it was implemented to encourage procreation. Thought maybe you did.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R41873.pdf

https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/policy-basics-the-child-tax-credit

https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/R45124.html

 

[ashley0139]

The way the term is being used here is in the context that people choose to have kids because they want them. Of course raising and nurturing kids, when done properly, is all about putting their needs before your own - nobody says otherwise. But the initial decision to have them (if it is made purposefully) is all about the desires of the parents. Creating a family (regardless of how the children come into it) is as much a lifestyle choice as anything else.

As many have said, they always knew they wanted children; had a strong desire to have them. I doubt very many people are doing it with a clear objective of bettering society or for the good of the species, or even for the sake of the yet-to-exist new human being. It’s about you/me/they wanting children. For ourselves and to have the kind of life we desire.

Every single person who chooses to bring a child into this world is doing so for reasons that fulfill some desire within themselves. It is for *their* benefit. They want to have a family, they want to experience the parent-child relationship, they want someone to take care of them in old age, they want to continue the family line.... Is there any reason* for having a child that doesn’t begin with “I want”?

*I’m not referring to women who aren’t given the freedom to make their own reproductive choices. That’s an entirely different topic.

Thank you both for putting it into words better than I was able to!

 

[kdonnel]

You asked what we thought and I think the child tax credit was not implemented specifically to encourage procreation but rather to help low and middle income earners who have children.
I'm not finding anything on Google stating it was implemented to encourage procreation. Thought maybe you did.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R41873.pdf

https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/policy-basics-the-child-tax-credit

https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/R45124.html

I was not specifically stating the child tax credit was designed to encourage procreation and never mentioned that specific credit. I was speaking in general tax terms. There are a lot more tax breaks associated with child dependents then just the relatively recent child tax credit.

When all of them are combined together I don't have a doubt that it is a social engineering, making an expensive proposition(raising a child) slightly less so, so as to encourage procreation.

Other tax breaks that are closely related to having a child:
Until last tax year there were exceptions associated with dependent children.
Care for other dependents tax credit
Child and dependent care tax credit
Earned Income Tax Credit
Adoption Tax Credit
American Opportunity Credit
Lifetime Learning Credit
Student Loan Interest Tax Deduction
Treatment of dependent earned income
Treatment of dependent investment income
Health insurance deductions for children of self employed
etc
etc
https://www.irs.gov/credits-deducti...-income-tax-credit/child-related-tax-benefits

Taken as a whole, taxes are being used to encourage procreation.

 

[Hikergirl]

I was not specifically stating the child tax credit was designed to encourage procreation and never mentioned that specific credit. I was speaking in general tax terms. There are a lot more tax breaks associated with child dependents then just the relatively recent child tax credit.

When all of them are combined together I don't have a doubt that it is a social engineering, making an expensive proposition(raising a child) slightly less so, so as to encourage procreation.

Other tax breaks that are closely related to having a child:
Until last tax year there were exceptions associated with dependent children.
Care for other dependents tax credit
Child and dependent care tax credit
Earned Income Tax Credit
Adoption Tax Credit
American Opportunity Credit
Lifetime Learning Credit
Student Loan Interest Tax Deduction
Treatment of dependent earned income
Treatment of dependent investment income
Health insurance deductions for children of self employed
etc
etc
https://www.irs.gov/credits-deducti...-income-tax-credit/child-related-tax-benefits

Taken as a whole, taxes are being used to encourage procreation.

We will have to disagree on this, I don't see the government setting up these credits specifically to encourage people to have kids, if people choose to use them as their own encouragement that is different.

 

[Soldier's*Sweeties]

We are all being selfish when we make decisions based on what we want or don't want.
Being selfish isn't always a bad thing, it isn't always a negative trait. There isn't always something wrong with being selfish.

I agree.

 

[kdonnel]

We will have to disagree on this, I don't see the government setting up these credits specifically to encourage people to have kids, if people choose to use them as their own encouragement that is different.

The US attempts at encouragement are certainly more subtle then other countries.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/33485/6-creative-ways-countries-have-tried-their-birth-rates
https://ifstudies.org/blog/how-far-should-government-go-to-encourage-couples-to-reproduce/
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/11/03/141943008/when-governments-pay-people-to-have-babies
https://www.mercatornet.com/demography/view/what-can-governments-do-to-increase-birthrates/16578

This one shows that the encouragement is not always in your face direct.

One of the biggest concerns that South Korean parents have is being able to pay for their children’s care and education, so the government is promising to greatly expand the network of low-cost governmental childcare facilities, and is actively trying to weaken the perception that a college degree is necessary for success.

 

[cabanafrau]

I think whatever decision someone makes about having children or not is the right decision if they've made it based on truly knowing themselves. I'd rather see 100 people decide that having children isn't for them and live their life accordingly than I would for one to decide to have children for the wrong reasons and the kids pay the price for it.

People are individuals. We're all not wired the same, not all attuned to the same frequencies. Each one of us has to decide what works for us, and we're the only ones that can make the decision for ourselves.

 

[amberpi]

Why do you think governments give tax breaks for having children? Tax breaks are often given as a way for the government to encourage certain activities. In this case procreation.

But you save so much money by not having children.

 

[Maggie Gallagher]

People need to mind their own business. My best friend is a very charitable person who chose not to have kids, and her other friends and family drove her nuts butting into her life and judging her.

Personally, I think that people need to do what is right for themselves. Children need parents that are 100% happy with their role as parents, because it's a very tough job. If someone isn't 100% invested in raising children, then they shouldn't have to feel pressured by society to procreate.

Live and let live.

 

[Maggie Gallagher]

I am a mother but I could care less what others choose to do. I don’t care and I’m positive most people don’t care if other people become parents. Seems like it’s just you trying to make this about yourself when reality is most people just don’t care.

Not true.

Many childless people are judged and pressured by family members and friends. I've seen it happen to my friends and colleagues. It really stinks when they are grilled by people who don't know how to mind their own business.

 

[cabanafrau]

Not true.

Many childless people are judged and pressured by family members and friends. I've seen it happen to my friends and colleagues. It really stinks when they are grilled by people who don't know how to mind their own business.

People are judged and pressured by others about a myriad of things every day -- where they work/chosen career, how they spend their time, how they spend their money, whether they should worship/where and how they should worship, where they go on vacation, where they live, what they wear, what they eat/don't eat, whether they choose to marry/not marry, etc., etc. Having children or not isn't any different in that regard.

By the same token many people are indifferent to whether someone else chooses to have children or not.

 

[MIGrandma]

I think it’s very nosy to ask anyone why they don’t have kids, when they’re going to, etc. It isn’t anyone’s business. I didn’t even ask our DD and SIL about it. Not my business. When they first got married she didn’t want kids at all. I was fine with that, as I said it wasn’t my business. But 5 years later she changed her mind. They have a 14-year old son and 10-year old daughter.

It’s up to each person/ couple to decide if they want kids or not. Nobody else’s business. I’m sorry some of you “childless by choice” people have to deal with rude people butting into your lives, whether it be family, friend or stranger.