Elephant in the room....

[Pooh12863]

If you use current year points for the reservation you’ll miss your banking window and those points will expire when you cross your use year, same deal if using borrowed points, once borrowed they’re stuck in the current use year and will expire when you cross your use year.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

The perfect example of a cure worst than the disease.

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but just like walking, booking day by day (from check OUT) was never a requirement. If you wanted to do it, you could. It also did not block rooms that another member wanted.
Some may have found it a pain in the rear if they opted to day by day book (but they would also probably be the walkers), but it is a completely fair way to book.

 

[Mikamarii]

If you use current year points for the reservation you’ll miss your banking window and those points will expire when you cross your use year, same deal if using borrowed points, once borrowed they’re stuck in the current use year and will expire when you cross your use year.

Ahhhhhhh yes that makes sense thanks. I forgot about that window. So i guess the longest a walk could go for is 8 mths if started day 1 of the use year.
While i'm still not a fan of the process at least there is a limit .

 

[Bearval]

Is there something within the booking system that would eventually block a walk? Like use year crossover or Something?

If not, then looking at the blt standard studio (for example), the most points for a week is 183. Given potential points fluctuations let’s say someone owned 400 pts. If at some point in the year they are able to snag two rooms for one week could they technically walk that Reservation for the life of the contract?

If that person leapfrogged the reservation they would essentially own a fixed week at any point they choose for the life of the contract. Whenever they decide to stay they still have the other room they are walking for the next year and at any point just pick up another walk.

I’m not being cheeky but just genuinely curious as to what the limit would be.

UY will block you but can walk for MONTHS depending on when you UY is and when you really want the reservation for.

 

[Bearval]

Ahhhhhhh yes that makes sense thanks. I forgot about that window. So i guess the longest a walk could go for is 8 mths if started day 1 of the use year.
While i'm still not a fan of the process at least there is a limit .

You can start your walk for a home resort 11 months prior to your UY but have to use the points before you cross it. UY is April 2020 for this example you can start a walk for your home resort in May 2019 by making a reservation for April 1st 2020 you can now walk it to March 2021.

 

[robinb]

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but just like walking, booking day by day (from check OUT) was never a requirement. If you wanted to do it, you could. It also did not block rooms that another member wanted.
Some may have found it a pain in the rear if they opted to day by day book (but they would also probably be the walkers), but it is a completely fair way to book.

Day by day absolutely blocked rooms that other members wanted. Day by day was used for the same kind of “high value” rooms that walking is used for now. If you wanted to book around NYE and into the first week of January in a boardwalk view studio and you waited until after Feb 1st to make your entire reservation on the 11th month check out day you would be sorely disappointed. Your reservation would have more holes than Swiss cheese because the day by day members already snapped up the days around NYE. I recall many angry people who said the exact same things about day by day members as they now say about walkers (cheaters, not fair, gaming the system, selfish, etc). Even if you did call day by day you could be shut out. I recall forgetting to set an alarm one day and calling an hour or two into the day and my studio I had been piecing together was not available. I waitlisted and eventually got it.

 

[robinb]

If you use current year points for the reservation you’ll miss your banking window and those points will expire when you cross your use year, same deal if using borrowed points, once borrowed they’re stuck in the current use year and will expire when you cross your use year.

You are confused about the banking window. The banking window is the first 8 months of your UY when you may cancel any reservation and those points that are from the current UY are eligible to be banked into the next UY. You run into trouble ("miss your banking window ") when the cancellation date for a reservation with dates in the last 4 months of your UY is made after those initial 8 months.

For instance, my UY is August and my banking window closes on March 31. If I make a reservation for July 30th with UY18 points, I can cancel it and bank any points forward to UY19 until March 31st. If I wait until April 1st to do it, I'm now in the last 4 months of my UY and those points are now stuck in UY18.

Since all walking activity, by default, happens in the 11th month (and sometimes 7th month) window all current UY points are booked and cancelled within the booking window.

Back to my UY for an example. If wanted to walk a reservation across my UY boundary (July 2020/Aug 2020), I would have to start booking July 2020 in August 2019 with my brand new UY19 points. As I cross the UY, I cancel the July 2020 dates and book the August 2020 dates with UY20 points. BUT, since I'm canceling in SEPTEMBER 2019 those UY19 points are still perfectly valid to be banked all the way until March 31, 2020.

 

[Frederic Civish]

As I’ve said earlier in this thread.
The old day by day booking solves the walking issues once and for all. It gives everyone the exact same chance to get the room.
Again, I have no dog in this fight, but I’m just offering a solution.

It gives everyone the exact same chance to have their vacation shredded, by being able to get some rooms, but not others. Talk about a lot of work and insecurity.

If I want 7 days at Bay Lake Tower in a Standard View Studio (because, let's assume that is all I can afford, and that is also the exact time I need), then every day, at 8 AM I would have to be signed on, ready to go (By the way, this is 6 AM for me, and 5 AM for people in California). And then, I would watch the rooms I want disappear, before I could get them. If I was lucky, I might get MOST of the 7 days I need, but I am very unlikely to get all. If they are popular days, you literally have SECONDS at the 11 month window and 8 AM Eastern Time, and by seconds, I mean that I get an accurate time, set on Disney time, and I watch it like a hawk, and THE MOMENT I SEE THE CLOCK TICK OVER TO 8 AM, I HIT THE ENTER BUTTON. And then, I often get the message that nothing is available. I know this, because I have done this, with BLT in mid October. So, that is the reality at the cusp of the 11 month window, for more popular units and dates. AT 11 MONTHS! Now, you might claim that if we just didn't have Walkers, then the time would be available for all. I think that is pie in the sky. Does anyone have any evidence that is the case? And you can't quote about 'how it used to be, before walking' because how it used to be is no longer valid. With the rise of the new online booking system, and its confluence with the Points Rental System, AND the effects of the 'Points Grab' by Disney with the Poly Bungalows, AND the fact that almost everyone who is currently buying HHI, VB and SSR points is doing so in order to trade (though that actually affects the 7 month windows) you have to realize that EVERYTHING REALLY COULD BE GONE, the moment you hit the 11 month and 7 month windows. It is a new age. And walking is an effective tool. Unless Disney thinks they can come up with another solution, I believe it is safe to say that we will never go back to the old system, and the 'old ways.'

 

[Frederic Civish]

Is there something within the booking system that would eventually block a walk? Like use year crossover or Something?

If not, then looking at the blt standard studio (for example), the most points for a week is 183. Given potential points fluctuations let’s say someone owned 400 pts. If at some point in the year they are able to snag two rooms for one week could they technically walk that Reservation for the life of the contract?

If that person leapfrogged the reservation they would essentially own a fixed week at any point they choose for the life of the contract. Whenever they decide to stay they still have the other room they are walking for the next year and at any point just pick up another walk.

I’m not being cheeky but just genuinely curious as to what the limit would be.

If you use current year points for the reservation you’ll miss your banking window and those points will expire when you cross your use year, same deal if using borrowed points, once borrowed they’re stuck in the current use year and will expire when you cross your use year.

Yes, the end of the Use Year forms a real barrier. You cannot leapfrog it. You must start with another reservation on the other side, along with the loss of current points and change to new points, as has been indicated. Though, if you ARE able to jump the barrier, and you are doing it at the 7 month or 11 month windows, it still should not be a problem to Bank your points, after you change the reservation.

 

[Frederic Civish]

Day by day absolutely blocked rooms that other members wanted. Day by day was used for the same kind of “high value” rooms that walking is used for now. If you wanted to book around NYE and into the first week of January in a boardwalk view studio and you waited until after Feb 1st to make your entire reservation on the 11th month check out day you would be sorely disappointed. Your reservation would have more holes than Swiss cheese because the day by day members already snapped up the days around NYE. I recall many angry people who said the exact same things about day by day members as they now say about walkers (cheaters, not fair, gaming the system, selfish, etc). Even if you did call day by day you could be shut out. I recall forgetting to set an alarm one day and calling an hour or two into the day and my studio I had been piecing together was not available. I waitlisted and eventually got it.

You are EXACTLY right. Going back to the Day by Day system would be a disaster, given the current lack of 'wiggle room' in DVC.

 

[Frederic Civish]

I don't really think walking is all that much of a problem. I strongly agree with others' comments that 99 percent of room inventory does not need to be walked. Some categories are always going to be high demand as they are very limited. Nothing is going to change that. The current system as is allows everyone an equal opportunity at those rooms and maintains great flexibility in its model. In my mind, this is very positive. I think the best solution to reducing walking overall is a point reallocation to increase point totals for popular times i.e., late fall. One more point I would make to anyone seeing increased walking over the last few months is to keep in mind that is a busy time anyway and it also is corresponding to when SW is likely to open...

(I know that I use a lot of capitalized words in my writing. I really am not YELLING as some people have suggested in the past. All CAPS to me is just a way of emphasizing certain words or phrases, without having to use BOLD or Italics. I think Bold often looks distracting, and Italics are often hard to see. And that is why I use ALL CAPS for some words. So, please excuse me. I mean no disrespect.)

Greg, I agree with EVERYTHING you said. And if 99% of room inventory doesn't need to be walked, if it isn't really very much of a problem, then why do so many people have their noses out of joint?

I don't know why I keep chewing on this thread. I really don't have that much invested in Walking. I do it sometimes, but not often. I guess I am here, hanging on this board because I want people to know that DVC HAS CHANGED, and WALKING has become a valid and a NECESSARY tool. And that is all that it is. It isn't a sin. It isn't immoral. It isn't cheating. It helps people to get the exact reservations they want, in a way that the Day by Day system, and other proposed solutions can't and won't. AND, it is something that EVERYONE has the EXACT SAME ACCESS TO, so, really, HOW CAN IT BE UNFAIR?

Walking is a tool that is available to everyone. You still have JUST AS MUCH CHANCE OF GETTING YOUR ROOM AS YOU DID BEFORE. But it just may require you to PLAN MORE THAN 11 MONTHS IN ADVANCE, and get up early in the mornings and do some extra work. So you CAN do it. And if you don't want to do it, because you see it as too much work, then why complain about people who don't see it as too much work?

There will always be some inequities built into the DVC system. These inequities ARE BASED ON WHERE YOU OWN AND HOW MUCH YOU OWN! They are inherent in the system. For example. I own at BLT, Poly and Animal Kingdom Lodges. For the period of October 19th through November 1st, of this year, I have a Studio AND a 2-Bedroom booked at EVERY ONE OF THOSE RESORTS, AT THE EXACT SAME TIME (well, at Poly it is 3 studios). Why? BECAUSE I HAVE ENOUGH POINTS TO DO THAT, AND I KNOW THAT I WILL BE TRAVELING, BUT I AM NOT YET SURE OF MY PLANS, or the desires of my family who I will be traveling with. So, I am sitting on almost 2 weeks of rooms at 3 different resorts, popular resorts in very desirable times, but I will eventually settle it down to no more than 1/3rd of my current total, because, no matter how I split up the stays, we will only be staying in one resort at a time. So, 2/3rd of the days I have reserved (or more) will NOT be used by me, but are being blocked by me. How fair is that? And yet, what I am doing is entirely reasonable. See what I mean about inherent inequalities in the system?

 

[robinb]

Yes, the end of the Use Year forms a real barrier. You cannot leapfrog it. You must start with another reservation on the other side, along with the loss of current points and change to new points, as has been indicated. Though, if you ARE able to jump the barrier, and you are doing it at the 7 month or 11 month windows, it still should not be a problem to Bank your points, after you change the reservation.

I've never tried to book a reservation spanning UYs but I would assume that you could call MS and have them do it and over the phone. From my reading you would have 2 separate reservations but I believe that MS can override the 11-month window and book the back end of the reservation for you in the new UY.

 

[Mikamarii]

Walking is a tool that is available to everyone. You still have JUST AS MUCH CHANCE OF GETTING YOUR ROOM AS YOU DID BEFORE. But it just may require you to PLAN MORE THAN 11 MONTHS IN ADVANCE, and get up early in the mornings and do some extra work. So you CAN do it. And if you don't want to do it, because you see it as too much work, then why complain about people who don't see it as too much work?

The access to information is much different than it was 10 -20 years ago. So while it always may have occurred the potential for it to become more prevalent exists everyday and the potential for it to grow will be exponential.

The need to walk may not be required but so many people reading the many many discussion boards may create an artificial need to do it thinking its the only way to get what they want. How many times has it been stated in this thread 'walking guarantees you get what you want'. IF this happens then yes walking we be a problem. Only time will tell

It reminds me of disney cruises. The cheapest time to get a stateroom is opening day. As rooms sell the price goes up. Deposits are fully refundable so Many will book opening day and the price starts to climb. Then people cancel before PIF date. Some feel the need to book a cruise just to get the best price with no actual plan to cruise at that time.

The day they release cruise dates is crazy. When they released the last round some categories booked up within hours. Then once the dust settles its thread after thread of "DCL is too expensive". I get this example is slightly different as it involves cash but more of an example of an artificially created problem that doesn't violate any rules. We're doing a cruise next jan and i remember when they released the dates i frantically checked my phone hoping my TA booked early as i watched the price climb.

I'm not expecting to change yours or anyones opinion of it. Just my 2 cents

 

[twinklebug]

I think this statement is important and needs to be reiterated.

The need to walk may not be required but so many people reading the many many discussion boards may create an artificial need to do it thinking its the only way to get what they want.

I agree. The need to walk most units is totally artificial. When spread out over the year the 11 month out demand on the DVC rooms has not increased and never will.* There are just as many owners out there as there always has been since each of the resorts sold out. There may be changes to the demand for certain times of year due to Disney celebrations, and there may be changes to what owners want to experience if they bring different sized groups with them or if they've been reading fantastic reviews about a certain category (ex: BLT theme park views).

It should not be any harder to secure that room category you are looking for at your home resort 11 months out than it was when the resort was initially sold out.

Walking anything other than the very smallest of inventory makes no sense.

* There is one exception to saying demand will never increase: that is when DVD adds rooms to an existing resort. We've seen this happen with SSR when they added the tree houses, (although the impact there was very small given the sheer size of SSR) and when Kidani was added to Jambo, however at that point the Club level rooms had only just come online, so demand was never lower.

 

[ParkHoppers]

I think this statement is important and needs to be reiterated.


I agree. The need to walk most units is totally artificial. When spread out over the year, the demand on the DVC rooms has not increased and never will.* There are just as many owners out there as there always has been since each of the resorts sold out. There may be changes to the demand for certain times of year due to changes in Disney celebrations, and there may be changes to what owners want to experience if they bring different sized groups with them or if they've been reading fantastic reviews about a certain category (ex: BLT theme park views).

It should not be any harder to secure that room category you are looking for at your home resort 11 months out than it was when the resort was initially sold out.

Walking anything other than the very smallest of inventory makes no sense.

* There is one exception to saying demand will never increase: that is when DVD adds rooms to an existing resort. We've seen this happen with SSR when they added the tree houses, (although the impact there was very small given the sheer size of SSR) and when Kidani was added to Jambo, however at that point the Club level rooms had only just come online, so demand was never lower.

To your point of demand for rooms should never change I was thinking about if DVC bought back say a bunch of 300 point contracts and then in turn broke those up into smaller 50 point contracts and resold them. Not saying the number is that significant but I don’t know for sure. This might create new studio members buying the 50 point contracts. Which could change demand for studios from which it originally was when home resort sold out. Just a thought.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Day by day absolutely blocked rooms that other members wanted. Day by day was used for the same kind of “high value” rooms that walking is used for now. If you wanted to book around NYE and into the first week of January in a boardwalk view studio and you waited until after Feb 1st to make your entire reservation on the 11th month check out day you would be sorely disappointed. Your reservation would have more holes than Swiss cheese because the day by day members already snapped up the days around NYE. I recall many angry people who said the exact same things about day by day members as they now say about walkers (cheaters, not fair, gaming the system, selfish, etc). Even if you did call day by day you could be shut out. I recall forgetting to set an alarm one day and calling an hour or two into the day and my studio I had been piecing together was not available. I waitlisted and eventually got it.

Huh?? EVERYONE had the same exact opportunity to book day by day. I do not see how it blocked rooms that were not going to be used.
NO rooms were ever blocked because the original booker didn’t intend to use them.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Huh?? EVERYONE had the same exact opportunity to book day by day. I do not see how it blocked rooms that were not going to be used.
NO rooms were ever blocked because the original booker didn’t intend to use them.

You seem to believe that day by day was how things were directed to be booked but it wasn't. The actually directive was to book at 11 months from your day of check out. Day by day did leave people with holes in their reservation but they might not even know that was going to happen until they finally hit that day where others beat them to the room. And then their second choice they might have booked very likely was gone too (thinking BWV standard and boardwalk views especially). And so many complaints and upset owners who now did not have a reservation for their stay. Day by day for VGF or CCV studios - whew. The boards would be blowing up with complaints.

I'll take walkers vs swiss cheese thank you very much!

 

[Frederic Civish]

I've never tried to book a reservation spanning UYs but I would assume that you could call MS and have them do it and over the phone. From my reading you would have 2 separate reservations but I believe that MS can override the 11-month window and book the back end of the reservation for you in the new UY.

You might be right. You can't do it on the website, but maybe Member Services could bridge the Use Year barrier for you. I have never tried, so I don't know.

When spread out over the year, the demand on the DVC rooms has not increased and never will.* There are just as many owners out there as there always has been since each of the resorts sold out. There may be changes to the demand for certain times of year due to changes in Disney celebrations, and there may be changes to what owners want to experience if they bring different sized groups with them or if they've been reading fantastic reviews about a certain category (ex: BLT theme park views).

It should not be any harder to secure that room category you are looking for at your home resort 11 months out than it was when the resort was initially sold out.

I really have to disagree with you here. Demand on DVC rooms HAS increased and will continue to increase. The number of owners and points in any sold out resort do not change, but the DEMAND does. Why? Because, once again, almost any SLACK in the system comes from people NOT using their points. These points expired. Any rooms that sit empty because no one reserves them, no matter which resort and what time of year, represent points which were not used and have now expired. Previously, that was more common than it is now. And even if the room is 'reserved' it STILL could represent expired points. Because Disney can take the Breakage and book ANY AVAILABLE ROOM in ANY AVAILABLE RESORT, for CASH (to Disney) once that room reaches 60 days from expiration and it is not booked. And the points from that room go unused.

Why is it less common for points to expire? (I am not saying that some people's points don't still expire. They do. But it is less common.) People who used to let their points expire, now with the online system need less effort to overcome inertia and less effort to go to the work of making a reservation. The online members reservation system makes things quicker, clearer and easier. This by itself helps people use points more efficiently, so less likelihood of loss.

Second, more and more people are Renting Out their points. In many cases, these are points which would have expired in the past. Now, rather than let them expire, people are turning them into cash.

And, third, when HHI, VB and SSR were originally sold, the people that bought them probably bought them because they liked their location, options were limited, and most of them probably planned to mostly use their points at their home resort. But that has now changed. Almost every contract which now appears on the Resale market for VB, HHI and SSR (and maybe to a lesser degree, OKW) is purchased by people who INTEND FROM THE BEGINNING to mostly use those points to stay somewhere else. Look at VB and HHI right now. Rooms are available, today, in most categories. I know it is winter, but this STILL represents lost points. OR points which are being spent on another resort, thus increasing the demand on the other resort.

My first two points, above, represent increased demand for the entire booking season, 0 to 11 months, whereas the HHI, VB and SSR purchases mostly only affect the 0 to 7 month window. But it is till more stress on the system.

So, you can see why I disagree. I think DEMAND has increased, and the trend is still upwards.

 

[twinklebug]

I really have to disagree with you here. Demand on DVC rooms HAS increased and will continue to increase. The number of owners and points in any sold out resort do not change, but the DEMAND does. Why? Because, once again, almost any SLACK in the system comes from people NOT using their points. These points expired. Any rooms that sit empty because no one reserves them, no matter which resort and what time of year, represent points which were not used and have now expired. Previously, that was more common than it is now.

Why is it less common for points to expire? (I am not saying that some people's points don't still expire. They do. But it is less common.) People who used to let their points expire, now with the online system need less effort to overcome inertia and less effort to go to the work of making a reservation. The online members reservation system makes things quicker, clearer and easier. This by itself helps people use points more efficiently, so less likelihood of loss.

Second, more and more people are Renting Out their points. In many cases, these are points which would have expired in the past. Now, rather than let them expire, people are turning them into cash.

And, third, when HHI, VB and SSR were originally sold, the people that bought them probably bought them because they liked their location, options were limited, and most of them probably planned to mostly use their points at their home resort. But that has now changed. Almost every contract which now appears on the Resale market for VB, HHI and SSR (and maybe to a lesser degree, OKW) is purchased by people who INTEND FROM THE BEGINNING to mostly use those points to stay somewhere else. Look at VB and HHI right now. Half the rooms are available, today. I know it is winter, but this STILL represents lost points. OR points which are being spent on another resort, thus increasing the demand on the other resort. My first two points, above, represent increased demand for the entire booking season, 0 to 11 months, whereas the HHI, VB and SSR purchases mostly only affect the 0 to 7 month window. But it is till more stress on the system.

So, you can see why I disagree. I think DEMAND has increased, and the trend is still upwards.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I have seen no proof that many owners would "let" their points expire. We all bought in at considerable expense, we all pay dues. For any owner to just let their points evaporate like that shows ignorance.

Complaining about improvements to the booking system is pointless. They're not increasing demand, just making it easier and hopefully decreasing the amount of work MS has to do.

And yes, the 7 month out demand will increase for the more popular resorts. Hence the old adage "Buy where you want to stay."

ETA: What is increasing the perceived overall demand are the walkers (who don't need to walk) as outlined by many others above, and specific weeks during the year in which WDW has done a magnificent job of marketing. Note that the increase in demand for those specific weeks is offset by even lower demand other weeks. The question then becomes do I need to see F&W, or is F&G just as good?

I will not complain about WDW's successes in marketing: they make the product we bought into look even better.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

You seem to believe that day by day was how things were directed to be booked but it wasn't. The actually directive was to book at 11 months from your day of check out. Day by day did leave people with holes in their reservation but they might not even know that was going to happen until they finally hit that day where others beat them to the room. And then their second choice they might have booked very likely was gone too (thinking BWV standard and boardwalk views especially). And so many complaints and upset owners who now did not have a reservation for their stay. Day by day for VGF or CCV studios - whew. The boards would be blowing up with complaints.

I'll take walkers vs swiss cheese thank you very much!

Never had a Swiss cheese moment when I booked day by day, but than again I always got my behind out f bed to do it first thing AM. It would be extremely hard to have holes in the ressie that way. I only booked day by day for certain ressies, such as a Vero Cottage during summer. I certainly knew the rules and did not book every ressie day by day.
I do understand the pain in the rear part of day by day, but it’s hard to deny it was fair.