Ever canceled a trip because kids didn't earn it?

[amberpi]

The thing I've found interesting about this thread is that people have focused in on tidying up v.s. a weekend trip to Disney. I guess that's because of the title, but really the issue here is disciplining for disobedience. It really doesn't matter if it's doing chores or following house rules or behaving in a certain way. I guess "obedience" is an antiquated concept but that's what's at the root of it. Simple instructions, clearly stated and well within their capabilities, yet the OP's kids chose to behave differently. Call me a grumpy old bat (or an authoritative parent - those words are synonyms in my dictionary) but I believe kids, especially young ones, should comply with their parent's requests.

Slow clap. We also are big believers in respect and consideration for others (manners are a big part of that - we don’t litter because it’s inconsiderate for instance). It’s not just old bats who share your views here.

Ours are too small to have many chores outside of putting away toys and when I do laundry they help me sort it, but that’s kinda a game.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Well, like I said, I guess the words "obedience" and "discipline" can only be seen as negative to some.

That would be a different parenting style---permissive

But between the two we were discussing it's a much as how obedience and discipline is being utilized.

My mom was mostly an authoritative parent, my dad was mostly an authoritarian parent (aside from what we've talked about already with trips and vacations because oddly that's one of the few things they fully agreed on); big differences in how they gained compliance, obedience and in majority of ways disciplined my sister and I.

 

[pahoben]

There's a difference in authoritative parenting style and authoritarian style.

Blind obediance without any sort of discussion is more characteristic of authoritarian style whereas authoritative is more about set standards with room for growing autonomy.

Aside from that your example you've used I'm assuming you are saying it for shock value because those aren't near the scenarios people are talking about.

The issue is that some people have the belief that they know always know what is best for any set of parents and children. Children are different and require different styles but the leaned ones always know best. They always have the one size fits all optimum parenting behavior. When you apply their general blanket statements to specific situations the cracks appear in their edifice of reason. I would hope that all parents demand blind obedience in some situations like street crossing etc. The expert approach that I often see is far too simple to provide optimum parenting for all children.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

The issue is that some people have the belief that they know always know what is best for any set of parents and children. Children are different and require different styles but the leaned ones always know best. They always have the one size fits all optimum parenting behavior. When you apply their general blanket statements to specific situations the cracks appear in their edifice of reason. I would hope that all parents demand blind obedience in some situations like street crossing etc. The expert approach that I often see is far too simple to provide optimum parenting for all children.

I agree with you but I don't know that people were really stating that. I remember seeing posts about how parents had to levy different consequences differently depending on the child. You can still have the same overall parenting style but utilize punishments according to the particular child.

I also don't think anyone was advocating that there aren't situations where you need to obey your parents regardless no ifs ands or buts--safety would absolutely be one of them. Heck even your permissive parent would hopefully teach you to look both ways before crossing the street, go to the crosswalk whenever possible, etc. Though given the amount of adults I see who just jaywalk their ways across the street maybe that's being missed from some parents lol.

 

[LSUmiss]

Well, like I said, I guess the words "obedience" and "discipline" can only be seen as negative to some.

Blind obedience is, yes, & is typically considered ineffective.

 

[LSUmiss]

The issue is that some people have the belief that they know always know what is best for any set of parents and children. Children are different and require different styles but the leaned ones always know best. They always have the one size fits all optimum parenting behavior. When you apply their general blanket statements to specific situations the cracks appear in their edifice of reason. I would hope that all parents demand blind obedience in some situations like street crossing etc. The expert approach that I often see is far too simple to provide optimum parenting for all children.

You can still discuss why obeying street crossing rules are important vs just saying don’t cross the street without looking both way b/c I said so. It would be more effective to explain why it’s so important.

 

[pahoben]

I agree with you but I don't know that people were really stating that. I remember seeing posts about how parents had to levy different consequences differently depending on the child. You can still have the same overall parenting style but utilize punishments according to the particular child.

I also don't think anyone was advocating that there aren't situations where you need to obey your parents regardless no ifs ands or buts--safety would absolutely be one of them. Heck even your permissive parent would hopefully teach you to look both ways before crossing the street, go to the crosswalk whenever possible, etc. Though given the amount of adults I see who just jaywalk their ways across the street maybe that's being missed from some parents lol.

Thank you for the clarification. It is interesting that some deride blind obedience but seem to be blindly obedient themselves to some set of principles.

I know some find these discussions uncomfortable because of the disagreements. Actually most people here always hope to be even better parents and a thread like this does offer the possibility to think about your parenting and maybe find new ideas that may be applicable. Someone mentioned this earlier.

If there was some simple formula then life would be so much easier knowing that your child(ren) enjoyed the best possible parenting.

 

[pahoben]

You can still discuss why obeying street crossing rules are important vs just saying don’t cross the street without looking both way b/c I said so. It would be more effective to explain why it’s so important.

There are some children that you could explain the danger of street crossing to many many times without effect. You could explain the danger of climbing on balcony rails or stair bannisters without effect. In the moment blind obedience is required no matter if you explained the danger or not.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Thank you for the clarification. It is interesting that some deride blind obedience but seem to be blindly obedient themselves to some set of principles.

I know some find these discussions uncomfortable because of the disagreements. Actually most people here always hope to be even better parents and a thread like this does offer the possibility to think about your parenting and maybe find new ideas that may be applicable. Someone mentioned this earlier.

If there was some simple formula then life would be so much easier knowing that your child(ren) enjoyed the best possible parenting.

In the realm of the discussion it was blind obedience when used no matter the situation and there was never a discussion to be had--think "I'm the parent, you're the child you'll do as I say" but applied to just about everything.

 

[LSUmiss]

There are some children that you could explain the danger of street crossing to many many times without effect. You could explain the danger of climbing on balcony rails or stair bannisters without effect. In the moment blind obedience is required no matter if you explained the danger or not.

If you have explained it, then you’re not requiring blind obedience. Authoratative parenting doesn’t mean there are no consequences for disobedience. I think some ppl are so ready to dismiss the experts/professionals b/c they resent recommendations b/c parenting can feel so personal that they don’t fully understand what they’re arguing against or how to implement the recommendations.

 

[LSUmiss]

In the realm of the discussion it was blind obedience when used no matter the situation and there was never a discussion to be had--think "I'm the parent, you're the child you'll do as I say" but applied to just about everything.

Thank you. And for the most part, that is not effective. If the punishments are harsh enough, you may get compliance, but at what cost?

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Just like the Penelope Leach suggestion I mentioned in my first post here, where dessert is part of dinner and not to be used as a bargaining chip in order to avoid food battles, I sort of think of vacations the same way - they're part of family life as much as going to the dentist, going to church, going to grandma's to visit, going to school, going to work, etc. I don't differentiate close to home vacations vs those far away. If I have to pack and plan, and have some good times planned for our family, it's a vacation, regardless. And not something I'm going to cancel for behavior issues, especially what I consider minor ones. In my way of thinking it would cause resentment, and that's not something I want in my family unit if I can help it. (Thank you, Penelope, for teaching me that.)

By the same token, going away as a family for something fun will hopefully bring us closer together and increase our bond, so that if there are some behavioral issues brewing, a closer relationship can only help work them out (as opposed to resentment). Vacations are so infrequent and cost so much in time, resources and energy, we all value them very highly. The only way I would cancel one is due to illness or something like that. That doesn't mean we're not going to deal with behavioral issues in another way.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Thank you. And for the most part, that is not effective. If the punishments are harsh enough, you may get compliance, but at what cost?

Oh so agree.

One time my dad's punishment for not calling to inquire on my cat's health (we had had the cat for 7 or 8 months but she developed fatal kidney disease) in the 4 days since I had seen her was to put her to sleep before I could say goodbye--followed by "well it's your fault you never called to ask how she was". There was a long period after that where I never stepped out of line--lesson learned I guess.

 

[pahoben]

If you have explained it, then you’re not requiring blind obedience. Authoratative parenting doesn’t mean there are no consequences for disobedience. I think some ppl are so ready to dismiss the experts/professionals b/c they resent recommendations b/c parenting can feel so personal that they don’t fully understand what they’re arguing against or how to implement the recommendations.

I think you are mistaken in this view. They don’t accept the one size fits all expert view because they know their children and what may be effective in the specific situation they are faced with.

Let’s leave my generation out of it and accept that my parents generation had generally more authoritarian parents. Let’s contrast my parents generation with the Millenials whose parents had the benefit of oodles of experts and their research. In my opinion my parents generation had more effective adults then the current Millenial adults. I believe the reliance on experts in parenting has worsened the outcome of children becoming adults.

 

[Southernmiss]

Respect for all kids and adults also goes a long way. Coming home with a heavy hand is not respect.

Yes, our kids knew when we meant business. Someone upthread mentioned litter. Several times when my kids were little and not getting along, I told them that apparently they needed more to do. So I would find a safe place that we could pick up litter together--side of our neighborhood streets, the school playground, etc. You can bet none of them have ever littered.

Heading into the parking lot for the grocery store and carts are littering the available parking places, my kids were sent out of the car to pick up 3 or 4 carts and put them back in the cart corral to allow room for other cars to have those places.

Got my message across with respect and concern for others.

Just like the Penelope Leach suggestion I mentioned in my first post here, where dessert is part of dinner and not to be used as a bargaining chip in order to avoid food battles, I sort of think of vacations the same way - they're part of family life as much as going to the dentist, going to church, going to grandma's to visit, going to school, going to work, etc. I don't differentiate close to home vacations vs those far away. If I have to pack and plan, and have some good times planned for our family, it's a vacation, regardless. And not something I'm going to cancel for behavior issues, especially what I consider minor ones. In my way of thinking it would cause resentment, and that's not something I want in my family unit if I can help it. (Thank you, Penelope, for teaching me that.)

By the same token, going away as a family for something fun will hopefully bring us closer together and increase our bond, so that if there are some behavioral issues brewing, a closer relationship can only help work them out (as opposed to resentment). Vacations are so infrequent and cost so much in time, resources and energy, we all value them very highly. The only way I would cancel one is due to illness or something like that. That doesn't mean we're not going to deal with behavioral issues in another way.

Exactly. I attended a MOM's group at church when my kids were young.

One of the things we did was to learn how to be better parents using the Systematic Training for Effective Parenting (STEP) program. Still used today and recommended by those who must retrain parents in government programs. It really shook a lot of our preconceived parenting methods, many of them mentioned in this thread.

It was so very beneficial and we took these concepts home and helped our husbands to see how their notions of parenting could also be done differently. Was not easy, but the techniques work.

Several of us moms still are very close. Our children are mostly grown and have become amazing, caring, productive members of society. I had 2 of these moms in my office today sharing how they're now babysitting grandchildren using techniques learned in that program.

 

[ronandannette]

You can still discuss why obeying street crossing rules are important vs just saying don’t cross the street without looking both way b/c I said so. It would be more effective to explain why it’s so important.

Apparently you think one precludes the other.

 

[CdnCarrie]

The thing I've found interesting about this thread is that people have focused in on tidying up v.s. a weekend trip to Disney. I guess that's because of the title, but really the issue here is disciplining for disobedience. It really doesn't matter if it's doing chores or following house rules or behaving in a certain way. I guess "obedience" is an antiquated concept but that's what's at the root of it. Simple instructions, clearly stated and well within their capabilities, yet the OP's kids chose to behave differently. Call me a grumpy old bat (or an authoritative parent - those words are synonyms in my dictionary) but I believe kids, especially young ones, should comply with their parent's requests.

Obedience such as not trespassing?
You seem to be lecturing others and patting yourself on the back yet have often stated examples of lax parenting from your social circles.

Isn’t breaking a computer shooting yourself in the foot?
How do the kids do their homework now?
How about donating the computer rather than destroying it.?
What a dumb parenting move showing kids it’s okay to destroy property.
I don’t see any lesson being learnt..

 

[PollyannaMom]

Let’s leave my generation out of it and accept that my parents generation had generally more authoritarian parents. Let’s contrast my parents generation with the Millenials whose parents had the benefit of oodles of experts and their research. In my opinion my parents generation had more effective adults then the current Millenial adults. I believe the reliance on experts in parenting has worsened the outcome of children becoming adults.

I agree with this, and I think most of it has to do with mixed messages. Today's parents hear so many different opinions, from so many different experts, that they don't trust themselves! I think it's actually better to be a little less than perfect, but confident that you're doing your best, than to have better theories at your disposal, but constantly question yourself. - Kids pick up on that way more than people think.

 

[ronandannette]

Ob

Ob

 

[gwynne]

Oh so agree.

One time my dad's punishment for not calling to inquire on my cat's health (we had had the cat for 7 or 8 months but she developed fatal kidney disease) in the 4 days since I had seen her was to put her to sleep before I could say goodbye--followed by "well it's your fault you never called to ask how she was". There was a long period after that where I never stepped out of line--lesson learned I guess.

I am so sorry this happened to you.