Gator grabs 2 year old at Grand Floridian?

[ELSA711]

That would be the normal way to do risk assessment you know. You look at the history, you look to see if there is a change in patterns and you assess the need to change what you are doing. Alligators aren't a new thing on Disney property. I have photos from my 2011 trip where they were swimming in the water around the Beach Club.

You're fixating on these signs but we have nothing to say it would have made any difference. What you have is two data points, some rumors and a lot of supposition.

The one thing I am having trouble with and we never will really know but IMO there has been a change in patterns. More popping up, more reports of guests feeding them?!
Feeding a wild animal is extremely dangerous not to mention asinine. WDW should be reporting all guests that do that, if they can afford the price tag on the GF then they can afford a fine.

 

[Eoghann]

And as I've said before, if you are running a risk assessment, and it's 1 million that these things are going to cause bodily harm to someone, you put out a sign. You let someone know.

Especially if you have noted increased activity.

Statistics go out the window when you can literally see a danger.

For example, you are next to a great white. Do you still have a 1/billion chance of getting bit?????

What increased activity? There's been not a single confirmed bit of evidence of "increased activity".

And statistics never go out the window, they are just modified by circumstances. If I see a shark I get out the water, if I see an alligator I get away from it. A sign changes neither of these things. Your line of argument is entirely illogical.

 

[ParkHoppers]

First time I visited DW as a child in the mid seventies we stayed outside the park in a small resort. Behind the resort was a small man made pond. Well there were gator warning signs all over the place. Needless to say my parents didn't let me anywhere near that water. Just saying. IMO all resorts in gator country should have gator warning signs. All of them.

 

[Eoghann]

The one thing I am having trouble with and we never will really know but IMO there has been a change in patterns. More popping up, more reports of guests feeding them?!
Feeding a wild animal is extremely dangerous not to mention asinine. WDW should be reporting all guests that do that, if they can afford the price tag on the GF then they can afford a fine.

But that's it exactly. We don't have the data to stand in judgement.

You say they should be reporting these people? Do you know they don't? You'd need witnesses for the police to do anything of course.

What we think, what we feel, these are not facts or statistics.

 

[kellyjeanie]

There's no history of people getting hit by cars in the road outside my house, does that mean I'm going to stand in the middle of it and be surprised when I get run over?

Again... not blaming the family, don't know that they did anything wrong at all, but this line of argument is silly. Certain things are inherently dangerous and should be approached as such. It is in everyone's best interest to learn about their environment and what risks they are exposed to.

There's plenty of history of people getting hit by cars. It is common. People getting killed by alligators is exceedingly rare. The fact that the few cases of it actually happening are so high profile is proof of this. I'm glad you're not blaming the parents for this.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Right but in your examples, most of those lands are regulated by the state, parks, ie trailheads. etc.
This is a private property issue and with that then yes WDW needs to answer to the 'attractive nuisance' issue. IMO
If homeowners need a beware of dog sign, WDW needs beware of gators sign.

But people don't NEED a beware of dog sign if they have a dog in their backyards..do you see a "beware of dog" sign for every single yard that has a dog in it? And to be honest it's not the same thing..a dog is considered property of their owners and as such owners are responsible for their dog's actions. Regardless of a sign or not if a dog bites someone on your property it becomes your liability for any damage/harm caused. Alligators are wild animals not owned at all by Disney. If a gator bites a human in WDW property it is not the actual bite that would make Disney responsible (they are again wild animals) it would be other circumstances surrounding it that would make Disney responsible (not actually meaning this incident but as a general thing) if they actually were considered responsible.

 

[dlavender]

What increased activity? There's been not a single confirmed bit of evidence of "increased activity".

And statistics never go out the window, they are just modified by circumstances. If I see a shark I get out the water, if I see an alligator I get away from it. A sign changes neither of these things. Your line of argument is entirely illogical.

What's illogical is to simply say, "well history says you have a better chance of getting hit by lightning" when you are staring at a 7 ft gator. That's what is so illogical about this debate.

A sign tells someone, in case you didn't know, our resort lake has alligators. Stay out of the water.

Not, "no swimming", interpret as you wish.

Not really sure what is illogical about that line of thought......

Exactly, statistics need to be modified. Reports of feeding, reports of 7 ft gators being relocated, guest sightings.......Modify and warn appropriately. You agree, you just don't know it yet.

 

[angelmav]

And as I've said before, if you are running a risk assessment, and it's 1 million that these things are going to cause bodily harm to someone, you put out a sign. You let someone know.

Especially if you have noted increased activity.

Statistics go out the window when you can literally see a danger.

For example, you are next to a great white. Do you still have a 1/billion chance of getting bit?????

This, exactly. As we learn more, you can throw the statistics out the window, and even if someone was prepared, they would not know the information that only Disney was aware. Namely, that guests were feeding the Alligators, and two, that there had been reports of the alligators now swimming too close to these areas and recommendations to change that. Clearly, as this information gets out, the only one that could make an honest risk assessment was Disney. And while it is understandable that they still hadn't been more proactive, all of the warning signs that the likelihood of something like this occurring were starting to form.

 

[ELSA711]

But that's it exactly. We don't have the data to stand in judgement.

You say they should be reporting these people? Do you know they don't? You'd need witnesses for the police to do anything of course.

What we think, what we feel, these are not facts or statistics.

Yep, agree. And as I stated before, it's up to the legal teams to sort all that out. Way to emotional for me as a mother to judge that. I can freely admit that I can't separate that, which is why I'm not in those jobs.

 

[Delgado]

I'm not buying the argument that people should know that by staying on the 7 Seas Lagoon, that they are assuming the same risk as if they were camping in the middle of the Everglades.

Keep selling it, but I'm not buying it.

To add..
This is where I struggle with these arguments also. People dont go to disney to enjoy nature. Everything about disney is artificial but so real to the senses. Why do people not think disney doesnt have the responsibilty to warn against actual dangers, Like they do for many other things.

 

[LSLS]

I have seen statements about knowing about increases in alligator populations in Florida. Do we have factual evidence on this? I know the population has grown and was delisted in the mid 80s. But how many gators have been trapped/observed around the resorts currently vs 30 years ago. Now the next question out of this is would it change your opinion if the resorts have not seen an increase in gator activity? Not sure on that.

 

[ELSA711]

But people don't NEED a beware of dog sign if they have a dog in their backyards..do you see a "beware of dog" sign for every single yard that has a dog in it? And to be honest it's not the same thing..a dog is considered property of their owners and as such owners are responsible for their dog's actions. Regardless of a sign or not if a dog bites someone on your property it's becomes your liability for any damage/harm caused. Alligators are wild animals not owned at all by Disney. If a gator bites a human in WDW property it is not the actual bite that would make Disney responsible (they are again wild animals) it would be other circumstances surrounding it that would make Disney responsible (not actually meaning this incident but as a general thing) if they actually were considered responsible.

Yep, you are right. Dogs are property, wild animals are not. I realized that after I typed it. Not the same thing.

I was just thinking of my sister who was just ordered by her insurance co and the township to put up beware of dog sign, because her dog is part pit bull, even with no issues with the dog or history.

 

[ELSA711]

But people don't NEED a beware of dog sign if they have a dog in their backyards..do you see a "beware of dog" sign for every single yard that has a dog in it? And to be honest it's not the same thing..a dog is considered property of their owners and as such owners are responsible for their dog's actions. Regardless of a sign or not if a dog bites someone on your property it becomes your liability for any damage/harm caused. Alligators are wild animals not owned at all by Disney. If a gator bites a human in WDW property it is not the actual bite that would make Disney responsible (they are again wild animals) it would be other circumstances surrounding it that would make Disney responsible (not actually meaning this incident but as a general thing) if they actually were considered responsible.

I guess I just don't understand how WDW is suppose to control the wild animals. To me it comes down to the beaches being an 'attractive nuisance'. Are they or are they not.
Thank goodness someone else has to determine that, not me.

 

[angelmav]

I have seen statements about knowing about increases in alligator populations in Florida. Do we have factual evidence on this? I know the population has grown and was delisted in the mid 80s. But how many gators have been trapped/observed around the resorts currently vs 30 years ago. Now the next question out of this is would it change your opinion if the resorts have not seen an increase in gator activity? Not sure on that.

You also have to factor in not just the increase in gator numbers, but the increase in people staying on the property in general. How many more people are exposed to a risk today vs 30 years ago? And the real kicker, and IMO, this is probably the series of events that made this tragedy a more likely occurrence, the bungalos on the water from which 'reportedly' people were feeding the alligators. If true, a dangerous association was formed that could have altered the behavior of these animals in an already altered landscape.

It was not just one thing that caused this, but a chain of events that made it possible to happen.

 

[Delgado]

I am a Disney lover and DVC owner. Though I am not going lay blame I do get the feeling that Disney didn't have gators signs is because it doesn't go well with the Happiest Place on Earth vibe that they are trying to sell. I mean how many people would have been using those beaches had the signs already been in place. Just the feeling I have on this sad,sad event.

I really really appreciate youre input. So many think that any blame being placed on disney is coming from a negative place. It is not. I love disney, it is my favorite place ever. Id rather go there than anywhere but that doesnt make it hard for me to say what is wrong is wrong.

 

[ck2d]

The reason people try to blame the parents is because of their own fears. They think if they can find some nitpicky thing the parent did wrong, then they can delude themselves that they were in that situation they could have done something different to prevent it. Which is asinine.

I think a lot of the anger people have now, especially toward the parents, is because now all of a sudden there is something else to be afraid of that they never thought of before. You can't predict everything that can possibly happen. The only way to completely avoid alligators is to never be in their habitat, in other words, don't ever go to Disneyworld.

This parent was walking his son in water that was shallow and clear at the edge of the shore. Of course he didn't think there was an alligator lurking nearby, or he wouldn't have let his son be in that area. And of course Disney didn't think it would happen either, or they would have taken further precautions. They thought they were pulling all the alligators. Well, it's a big lake, and a few slipped by them. Think about it, that is a huge body of water, and they only found 5 alligators - anywhere else there would have been dozens of them, at least.

The only way I'm going to listen to anyone trying to blame the parents is if they post a video of themselves telling their own kids to stay away from the shoreline in case there's an alligator from before this incident happened. There isn't one anywhere in the world or it would already have been posted and gone viral.

You're trying to make yourself feel better, feel like you would be in control in an uncontrollable situation, that's all you're doing when you're trying to blame the parent. You think somehow you'll be able to protect your child from everything? I'm sorry to give you the wake up call, but you're wrong.

 

[Delgado]

Who if anyone regulates how signage must be Posted on property. Is it disney discretion? I'm sure lawyer and insurance input. But I'm making can the government in anyway make then put signs up for things (before the tragedy)

 

[ELSA711]

Who if anyone regulates how signage must be Posted on property. Is it disney discretion? I'm sure lawyer and insurance input. But I'm making can the government in anyway make then put signs up for things (before the tragedy)

Well, in my example about 'beware of dog' it was private property so it was the township (local govnt and insurance) requirement.
I'm guessing insurance mostly in WDW case. I don't know how every state is but the state of PA mandates an 'equestrian risk' sign at all horse farms as well.

 

[DudeOfDiz]

Well, it's certainly negligence if they didn't follow up on the reports of alligator activity in the area or stopping people from feeding the gators to begin with. There's no concrete evidence of either, though.

I think it would be wise if legal team asked if Disney has video surveillance recorded of this activity.

 

[STLstone]

Due diligence goes both ways. If I go to hike a trail it is absolutely on me to check the weather, study a map and take the time to learn what wildlife I might encounter.

There's insufficient evidence to say if a different sign would have changed anything here. in fact there are far too few data points to draw any general conclusions about anything beyond the fact that alligator attacks on Disney property are an exceptionally rare event.

When you go on a hike, you are making a decision to go "into the wild." The average person does not view going to Disney's premier luxury resort as going "into the wild." They just don't. They should not reasonably be expected to research dangers beyond what would exist at every other luxury resort - without being given some sort of heads up.