Please learn from my mistakes

[emerymt]

I saw many able body people in rented EVCs, the crowning moment was a family of 4. Mom, Dad and 2 preteen DDs having a "blast" !! They told me how the rented them from scooterrama and took them to the parks in their rented minivan. I also so many morbidly obese couples on his & her EVCs'. I really think something should be done on a national level. Simmular to the H/C stickers for cars. My father has a card from medtronic explaining his "electrodes", I would love for that to happen.

First, thanks for writing this post. You maybe just changed my mind regarding getting an ECV rental. I have RA and can get around "okay" without any assistance, but not at WDW. But, I didn't want to inconvenience other people with my ECV. Well, to heck with that!

Second, I agree 100% with you regarding ECV abuse. I was at WDW a couple of years ago and there was a group of young adults whipping around EPCOT on ECVs like a slow-motion motorcycle gang. Unbelievable. Disney needs to require a note on an RX pad. People with real medical problems will probably already have that because you need it to submit for a medical spending account or insurance- if not, it takes 20 secs. for your doctor to write one and they won't mind (I know because I am one!)

 

[emerymt]

If you are injured on vacation, just get whomever you saw for your injury to write a little note. Or call your doctor at home and they'll take your word for it and fax you one. I'm very worried that Disney will just quit offering ECV rentals altogether, and that hurts disabled people more than asking for a little bit of paper. Disney already "knows" so much about everyone visiting the parks, what difference does it make?

 

[Michigan]

Disney needs to require a note on an RX pad. /QUOTE]

If Disney did they they would be in violation of the ADA law and be open for law suits. Under the ADA you do not have to prove your disability to anyone!

 

[Schmeck]

Also, how in the world can you limit the right to rent/purchase something to just a certain group of people? I have every right to use an ECV or a wheelchair if I want to, and no one else has the right to tell me I can't. Too bad for you if I'm fat or out of shape or lazy. If I want to ride in an ECV, who are you to tell me I can't? Or if I want to wheel myself around in a wheelchair, I can do that too. I don't have to be disabled to do that. Of course I'd have to buy or rent the equipment myself, as there is no medical need for me to have either, but I can get a wheelchair or ECV if I want one.

What WDW needs to do is set a speed limit for ECVs - walking speed only. People deliberately speeding/bumping/crashing should be expelled from the park.

 

[emerymt]

Schmeck, there are all kinds of laws limiting what can and cannot be rented or used by certain groups of people! Let's start with: cars, guns, cigarettes, alcohol, certain medications, illegal drugs, syringes, fireworks, Segways, certain chemicals, etc. etc. etc. Public safety outweighs the individual's right to choose in all of these circumstances. The same is true of ECVs in a crowded place. There is also the issue of "undue burden"- this is why Disney can make rides not everyone can ride.

Of course asking for proof of need would be in violation of the ADA. However, the ADA isn't perfect, no law is, because it can't anticipate every situation in every place. Laws backfire on the very people they're supposed to help all the time.

Exceptions to this law do occur, as in the HC parking example (of course, those laws antedated the ADA). If Disney or some other group would take it upon themselves to lobby for a change (require a HC hangtag on an ECV or get an RX for it) it could happen, especially in a localized area like Florida where Disney has pull, and if they demonstrated there were real problems going on.

Instead, what's likely to happen is that Disney will circumvent the spirit of the law because they're following the letter of it. They'll either raise the price on the rental ECVs so high that folks won't use them, or stop offering them altogether. This is a courtesy service, and if creates problems for Disney, it will just go away. Maybe they'll just disallow ECVs altogether, if they think it's too dangerous- who knows. The ADA specifies wheelchairs, not ECVs (unless there are amendments I don't know about, which could be).

 

[Cheshire Figment]

What WDW needs to do is set a speed limit for ECVs - walking speed only. People deliberately speeding/bumping/crashing should be expelled from the park.

However, whose walking speed?!

I am a native New Yorker. When I was healthier my normal walking speed was almost 6MPH because people learn to walk quickly in NYC.

Disney limits their rental ECVs to 2MPH. My personal one can go 4.5 MPH. I don't think Disney could control my speed.

However, I could be a real terror if I was careless. I will sometimes speed through the parks (especially Epcot) at maximum speed. However, I am not dangerous (I think) for a few reasons. One is I have my own ECV and am very used to it and what it can do. Another is I will concentrate on my driving and the road and people ahead of me and not being a gawking tourist. I have the ability to judge, with fairly high accuracy, what the tourists will be doing. I have had times I have come to a complete stop and someone has walked right into the front of my ECV, because they did not see me.

I am still proud to say I have never accidentally run into someone with my ECV.

I did however, last month, run over a woman's foot. There had been a large group of people stopped on Main Street in MK during MVMCP. I politely asked them if I could go past and when they stepped aside I then started up. The woman, when she moved, managed to put one foot under my ECV and the right rear tire ran over her foot. How she managed that I don't know, since I had been at a dead stop and just starting back up.

 

[SueM in MN]

Disney needs to require a note on an RX pad.

If Disney did they they would be in violation of the ADA law and be open for law suits. Under the ADA you do not have to prove your disability to anyone!

If you are injured on vacation, just get whomever you saw for your injury to write a little note. Or call your doctor at home and they'll take your word for it and fax you one.

I don't think that would solve anything. What would prevent someone from telling their doctor that they needed a note when they just wanted to rent an ECV (didn't need one)?
And, some people might have an injury, but either not see a doctor or the doctor feels they don't need an ECV or wheelchair? The doctor doesn't know how much pain they are in, so why would the doctor be in charge of whether or not they need an ECV? Or maybe the doctor would agree to sign a note, but the person doesn't think they need an ECV, so they don't get a note. Should they have to go back to the doctor a few days later just to get a note when they realize they really do need an ECV?

(require a HC hangtag on an ECV or get an RX for it) it could happen, especially in a localized area like Florida where Disney has pull, and if they demonstrated there were real problems going on.

Since the ADA is federal, Florida could not make a law that supercedes it.

Also, someone may be using their handicapped hangtag already for their vehicle, so they would not have one to use on the ECV.

 

[SueM in MN]

What WDW needs to do is set a speed limit for ECVs - walking speed only. People deliberately speeding/bumping/crashing should be expelled from the park.

As Cheshire Figment mentioned, the ECVs rented out by WDW at their parks have a limited speed.

People who are renting them from the parks can get the ECV they are renting confiscated from them if they "mis-behave" with it.
I have seen CMs talk to people who were speeding/bumping/crashing their own or outside rental ECVs. Their ECV could obviously not be confiscated, but they could be expelled from the park if they are warned and then continue to cause problems.

 

[cupcake]

I have extra bones in my feet. I am not the most svelte person in the world, and it doesn't help that I have limited mobility. Yet, I can walk in spurts (not even close enough to enjoy even a few hours at a park). Goodness knows what people think when they see me hop off my scooter for an attraction or to get the blood flowing by walking through a shop. You would never know what my issues were by just glancing at me. But I am certainly not going to let that ruin my vacation, although I do NOT like it. If anyone is reading this and thinking gosh, I won't rent something to help me because of what people will think, please reconsider. It is your vacation, and you know what your needs are and what will help you really enjoy your trip w/o spending it all sitting on a bench worried about what others will think.

I don't know about theme park rentals, but it seems that most people are not going to go to the hassle and cost of renting off site for the heck of it. I can think of many things to do that are more fun than trying to get an ECV onto a crowded bus. Personally, I think the internet is the cause of the increase in ECVs and wcs over the past few years. Whereas before, people with mobility issues would sit on a bench, now they or their family members poke around and find a better way. The first time I rented a wc, I was sitting crying in Pecos Bills bc my feet hurt so much (one of the bones had actually moved and I later found it had hit a nerve and had to be manipulated back). I had overdone it bc I wasn't being sensible and I really wanted to get around. My dh went and got one for me and it was a miracle. I rented a wc at WDW for years before finding this board and the courage and facts to use an EVC and rent from offsite.

I remember seeing a young woman being pushed fast into into the parade wc seating area by a young man during my last trip, laughing, saying "race you!'" or the like and seeming like they did not have a care in the world. We were all chatting while we waited, and she told me she had bone cancer and her fiancee was taking her to WDW before her next round of treatment. Just another example of the fact that one never knows.

In all honesty, this is a depressing thread.

Cupcake

 

[SueM in MN]

I don't know about theme park rentals, but it seems that most people are not going to go to the hassle and cost of renting off site for the heck of it. I can think of many things to do that are more fun than trying to get an ECV onto a crowded bus. Personally, I think the internet is the cause of the increase in ECVs and wcs over the past few years. Whereas before, people with mobility issues would sit on a bench, now they or their family members poke around and find a better way...........

I remember seeing a young woman being pushed fast into into the parade wc seating area by a young man during my last trip, laughing, saying "race you!'" or the like and seeming like they did not have a care in the world. We were all chatting while we waited, and she told me she had bone cancer and her fiancee was taking her to WDW before her next round of treatment. Just another example of the fact that one never knows.

In all honesty, this is a depressing thread.

Cupcake

I agree with you

One of my friends and her husband took her 2 sons, who were then something like 6 and 9. The family had rented a wheelchair and pushed it around, even though no one was usually in it. Sometimes the younger boy sat in it. Sometimes the 2 boys were running and racing each other. Occasionally, the older boy sat in the wheelchair. But, only when he was really, really worn out.
They had all the 'facts' that people usually cite in saying someone doesn't need the wheelchair.
- children who could walk and even run
- a wheelchair that sometimes wasn't being used at all
- a wheelchair with different people riding in it at different times

Many people would have taken all that as sure "proof" that they didn't need the wheelchair.

In fact, the older boy had a heart condition that wasn't totally fixable by surgery. His parents had been told he would probably not survive much into his teens.
One morning, just after his 18th birthday, when his mom went to see why he had not gotten up for school, she found he had died during his sleep.

So much for being able to judge who is/isn't in need of a wheelchair at WDW.

 

[bzzymom]

I think there is a lot of judging going on about peoples abilities/disabilities. I think that there are many people who think that if they are in a wheelchair or scooter they will not have any lines at WDW and think if the person doesn't look "impaired" that they are cheating the lines and such. This is absolutely false.

Most of the time that I ravel to WDW with the kids, I am also with my mom and dad. They are disneyholics. My mom is overweight, and has had 2 surgeries on her feet, and one on her knee. She suffers from back pain often, and though she doesn't own a ecv, she uses the courtesy ones at target, walmart and our local grocery store. She doesn't even walk into our mall anymore, she only goes into a department store and finds a seat to rest in if I have more shopping to do. She loves to see my children enjoy WDW. The only way she can do that is to rent an ecv at the parks. On our last trip, she didn't go into the parks the last 2 days she was there because she was in so much pain from the small amount of walking she did. She was able to sit in a chair out by the pool. I felt really bad for her.

 

[emerymt]

Actually, I don't think there is any judging going on on this particular thread, (well, except fot the first poster who made a comment about weight). The fact is, weight makes it very hard for people to get around. Everybody posting on this thread knows there are quite a few people who don't look disabled, but are. I'm one of them.

On the other hand, we all know there are people who abuse the ECV's because they think they are fun or just don't feel like walking. These people are a problem for the rest of us. The point is, the more ECV's there are, the more potential problems can occur as a result, the more likely it is that Disney will take a dim view of them.

Sue in MN, your point about the ADA being a federal law is a good one, but Disney does have parks in two states, which makes it a federal issue. Even better, if all the theme parks and big malls really cared, they all could get together and do something. But, it's too hard. So in the end, what they'll do is get rid of ECV rentals on site, and if that doesn't fix the problem with ECV abuse, they'll just ban them entirely. How does that help the disabled? I still maintain it's easy to get a doctor's note. And yes, we can tell if people are lying about an injury, just like we can tell if people are lying about needing drugs or anything else folks call up and ask about (well, most of the time). But, just having that little precaution will deter a lot of folks from renting an ECV for fun. For instance, one poster referred to an entire family who rented them for fun- I really don't think the family doc is going to believe they all sprained their ankles simultaneously at WDW.

 

[OneMoreTry]

My 2 cents.

Our daughter has to have a wheelchair. She can walk maybe 100 yards or on a fantastic day she may walk even a half mile. Until she has a myoclonic seizure, which she has had daily for 6 years. Or gets tired. There's no way she could walk around any of the Disney parks all day, although you may see her walking for a bit.

So you'll see us with a wheelchair and a pillow and fans and spray mist blowing all over the place. And if we need to use the wheel chair entrance we will.

Because if we don't we can't go to WDW. And I don't need nor care about anyone's opinion on the matter because actually there's not many who've walked in our family's shoes. If someone ever got in my face about it I would offer to trade them my daughter's illness for a three hour wait at every attraction in WDW.

(PS And that's why I don't judge fat people any more. Because I haven't been in their shoes.)

 

[SueM in MN]

Sue in MN, your point about the ADA being a federal law is a good one, but Disney does have parks in two states, which makes it a federal issue. Even better, if all the theme parks and big malls really cared, they all could get together and do something. But, it's too hard. So in the end, what they'll do is get rid of ECV rentals on site, and if that doesn't fix the problem with ECV abuse, they'll just ban them entirely. How does that help the disabled? I still maintain it's easy to get a doctor's note. And yes, we can tell if people are lying about an injury, just like we can tell if people are lying about needing drugs or anything else folks call up and ask about (well, most of the time). But, just having that little precaution will deter a lot of folks from renting an ECV for fun. For instance, one poster referred to an entire family who rented them for fun- I really don't think the family doc is going to believe they all sprained their ankles simultaneously at WDW.

I still disagree with you.
Although, the 4 people spraining ankles simultaneously does have a certain interesting angle. The person who posted that said it was a mom, dad and 2 kids. The WDW parks and most of the off-site companies do not rent ECVs for use by someone under the age of 18. When my FIL rented an ECV from the parks (and last year from Randy's) part of the rental agreement was that no one under the age of 18 would be allowed to ride on or drive the ECV. So, if someone did have their 2 kids riding them, they were not in compliance with the rental agreement.

First of all, just because Disney has parks in 2 states, does not make it a federal issue. They are providing ECVs as a courtesy (and possibly because they make money on them). If they did not provide them, people would still be able to get them. They would just rent them from one of the off-site companies, like many people already do.

Pain is the hardest thing for anyone other than the person who has it to know about - there are no tests that conclusively show how much pain someone has and there are no tests that definately show many injuries. So, a doctor is not going to be able to judge the need for an ECV or wheelchair - they have to take the patient's word for it. Yes, there are some signs that can be used as 'markers' for pain - like changes in vital signs, but no one but the person with the pain knows for sure (which is one of the reasons nurses use pain scales to have the patient 'rate' their pain when assessing reaction to pain medication).

You are not going to convince me and I don't think I can convince you, so we may as well agree to disagree.

 

[cupcake]

Another reason there are many wcs and ECVs is that WDW is really good about wanting to accommodate people with different needs. Thus, I'd guess that it attracts those people in greater percentages than other vacation destinations. In my book, that is a good thing, not a bad thing. So it's a positive thing if the percentage of people using some sort of mobility assistance is greater than what you'd see elsewhere.

And as I mentioned before, the internet educates people who in the past would have sat on a bench during their Disney vacation. So that's another addition to the crowd of wc/EVC users. And we have people with mobility restrictions who decide to retire to the WDW area bc it's so hc friendly. So there's even more people.

On the flip side, we have the alleged abusers. Setting aside people who play with the temporary transport wcs in the parking lot here and there, how many people are really renting for the heck of it, esp offsite? It's expensive: the 4 person group of alleged ECV abusers are adding ~$150/day on top of all the other expenses. It poses logistical challenges: witness all the questions posted on this board. And critically, there is no longer any incentive to using a wc or ECV even if you rent from the parks (which, by the way, have those lame 4 wheel ECVs that are not exactly joyrides). In fact, you may well wait longer with your EVC.

Finally, WDW specifically encourages people with limited mobility to rent a wc or ECV. You do not have to be disabled in the sense of qualifying for a hc permit to rent. Let's all recall the big to-do when DL switched over to the policy that WDW where there is no preferred access. Like WDW, if you can't do the distances or wait in the queues, you have to rent a wc or ECV and wait it out in the mainstream line. People were really mad bc they felt DL was stamping them as "disabled" but it did take away the special treatment, which can lead to abuse.

In short, no one can tell why another person is using a wc or ECV. The benefit/burden analysis of renting offsite or in the parks favors renting only if the positives outweigh the negatives. The positive side of the equation does not include special treatment, and if someone doesn't know that when they pay up and rent, they will find out soon enough. Anyone who's spent a day in a wc or fighting the crowds in an EVC where people play fun games like "cut off the ECV" knows it is no picnic, although it's well worth it if it's that or being miserable. WDW supports renting to assist with mobility even if the guest is not eligible for a placard.

More power to WDW for creating a destination that is so appealing to a wide variety of people. If someone is creating a dangerous situation, whether they are guests on foot playing high speed tag in a crowd or using a wc or ECV in a reckless fashion, WDW needs to deal with that. But that does NOT mean that all EVC users are fakers or that the increase in EVC users means there's an abuse problem.

OK, off my soapbox. I too will agree to disagree, but wanted to get that off my chest!

Cupcake

 

[Marie14625]

Interesting discussion. I am going in November..to help Kim, who uses a chair. She has CP, so needs the chair.

But this response is about me. I work as Kims personal assistant. I am in my early 50's. I also am considered obese..and also have arthritis in my knees and hips. I usually get around OK.. but at times walking long distances is hard on me. Another person who will be traveling with us said that I should consider renting a WC or a ECV...in case the walking is too much for me.

It is because of the way some people see heavy people who use "help" I told this person I do not want to rent a chair. I do not want to be frowned upon by folks who will assume I am using the chair simply because of my weight, and not my mobility difficulty. I would rather just walk and take frequent breaks as needed.

 

[Cheshire Figment]

It is because of the way some people see heavy people who use "help" I told this person I do not want to rent a chair. I do not want to be frowned upon by folks who will assume I am using the chair simply because of my weight, and not my mobility difficulty. I would rather just walk and take frequent breaks as needed.

Please ask yourself the following questions. Here are the suggested answers to go with them.

1. Are you disabled (even temporarily)? Yes.

2. Do the people you are travelling with, such as your family, know you are disabled? Yes.

3. Do you expect to meet anyone you know during this trip who may not know you are disabled. Probably No!

4. Do you expect to meet a bunch of people who you will probably never meet again in your life? Probably yes!

5. Is there any reason at all that you should care what these people think about you? Absolutely No!!

6. Will using a wheelchair or ECV make for a better vacation for you and your family? Absolutely YES!

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

I told the CM my dad could w/c transfer so we would not take a spot from someone else who could not. What happens? An able bodied family sits right down in h/c seating in front of us. My Mom who is also boiling at me for making my Dad transfer . . .

This bothers me much more than your comment about the weight.

Your father is an adult, why on earth would you speak for him, or "make" him transfer. If for some reason he is unable to indicate where he wants to sit or whether he wants to transfer, why wouldn't you defer to your mother who presumably lives with him day to day, and knows best what's comfortable for him and what he likes to do?

 

[emerymt]

I still disagree with you.
Although, the 4 people spraining ankles simultaneously does have a certain interesting angle. The person who posted that said it was a mom, dad and 2 kids. The WDW parks and most of the off-site companies do not rent ECVs for use by someone under the age of 18. When my FIL rented an ECV from the parks (and last year from Randy's) part of the rental agreement was that no one under the age of 18 would be allowed to ride on or drive the ECV. So, if someone did have their 2 kids riding them, they were not in compliance with the rental agreement.

First of all, just because Disney has parks in 2 states, does not make it a federal issue. They are providing ECVs as a courtesy (and possibly because they make money on them). If they did not provide them, people would still be able to get them. They would just rent them from one of the off-site companies, like many people already do.

Pain is the hardest thing for anyone other than the person who has it to know about - there are no tests that conclusively show how much pain someone has and there are no tests that definately show many injuries. So, a doctor is not going to be able to judge the need for an ECV or wheelchair - they have to take the patient's word for it. Yes, there are some signs that can be used as 'markers' for pain - like changes in vital signs, but no one but the person with the pain knows for sure (which is one of the reasons nurses use pain scales to have the patient 'rate' their pain when assessing reaction to pain medication).

You are not going to convince me and I don't think I can convince you, so we may as well agree to disagree.

Doctors judge levels of pain every day, "based on the patients word for it." But, doctors are also trained to spot malingerers, too. This is part of the "art" of medicine. We get our handicapped plates because they do- we get our authorizations for assistive devices to submit to third-party payers because they do- we get our medications and surgeries because they do. I think we can can count them to do the right thing.

But, the fact remains, ECVs are a courtesy and Disney doens't need to allow them at all if they perceive there is abuse, not to mention the current fact that if the rentals run out, why don't they increase they rental pool? Because they don't want to encourage their use. So, to think their helpfulness is going to continue as more and more folks decide to use ECVs is only true up to a point. If they start causing significant problems for other park visitors, they'll be banned on safety reasons.

I'm just looking for a way out of this that would preserve the rights of the disabled.

 

[LindsayDunn228]

This bothers me much more than your comment about the weight.

Your father is an adult, why on earth would you speak for him, or "make" him transfer. If for some reason he is unable to indicate where he wants to sit or whether he wants to transfer, why wouldn't you defer to your mother who presumably lives with him day to day, and knows best what's comfortable for him and what he likes to do?

Thank you, I wondered this as well.