What do you consider a lot? Student debt?

[NHdisneylover]

Realistically, every one of us is qualified for /would enjoy a number of jobs. No one is saying, "You must go into ____ career for the money, even if it makes you miserable." Rather, the right answer is to help kids filter though multiple careers that would suit their personalities and abilities; often kids don't figure it out right away. For example, I'm in my third decade of teaching high school seniors, and I've never had a single one go away to college saying, "I'm going to be an accountant." But I've had a bunch come back saying, "I started in general business, but once I took my first accounting class, I knew I should change majors."
I don't think I've ever heard of anyone going full-scale drill-sergeant on their kids demanding, "You will study ___ and you will like it!"

So you pulled out one sentence from my post in which I tlk about a balance between supporting a student in doing something they want, which may not be a "money" driven career, and react as if I am saying everyone needs to do pnly what they are meant to do? weird. I fully agree with you that it is damaging and not relaistic to sell kids (or adults) the idea that they have one true passion or calling and nothing else is worthwhile (another problem with that is it supports the notion that the "right" job is always fun and fufilling, so then when they hit a hard period in their caeer they are more likely to give up, and think they chooe the wrong path).
I also think it is damaging to sell the idea that everyone is equally inclinced towards any career and that moeny or time off or job securit are the only parts to look at when choosing. I am big on people thinking about the whole picture, as much as they can anticipate it, and choosing wisely based on many factors.

Also, I have not full on drill serageant, but I have certainly known parents who started pushing a career on a kid when that child was junior high aged and never really let up just talking baout it as a done deal to the point that the kid didn't really even consider other options---or what all is involved truly in the option they started studying (sometimes the kid themself showd ineterest in that field as a tween or young teen and parents globbed onto that meaning the kid WILL do that---not leaving any space for growing and changing minds later, other times it was all parent driven). Heck, in this thread alone you can find examples of parents talking baout what kind of field their 12 year olds will be gping into. My oldest, at 12, was several years in to saying they wanted to go to MIT and study engineering. Now? Same kid is a senior at a state school studying to be a Special Education teacher and has zero interest in being an engineer.

A big part of that is that high school keeps getting easier and easier (as a high school teacher, I am not proud of that). We want a near-100% graduation rate, but many of our students are not willing to work like they did a generation ago -- and many families are just not supportive of education. A high school degree doesn't mean what it used to mean.
Mark Twain said, "I'm a great believer in luck, and I find that the harder I work, the more of it I have." The world isn't getting any easier, but I definitely see "life skills" slipping in my high school students over the years -- people skills too.
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Really? I do see a trend to make some things simpler (like being allowed to turn in late work with little or no penalty), and holding hands more as far as making sure they get work in, know what to study, et but overall, far more content is covrered in HS now than it used to be. The minimum math required for my kids was about the same as the "college prep" requirenment when I was in school 25 years earlier (basically becuase the new assumption is everyone is college prep) and my father in law said on moe than one occasion that his grandkids took more math in highschool than he did as a physics major in university.

 

[mjkacmom]

I don’t think high school is easier now than when I went. I only took 2 AP classes my senior year. Now, high school freshman can take AP classes and it seems like there’s an AP class for every single subject. Also, back in my day, you had to get a recommendation and have certain grades and pre requisites to be eligible to take AP classes. Those in the honors program had more AP classes. I have heard that these days they are open to everyone regardless of grades or pre requisites.

At our HS, you definitely need written recommendations for AP classes and it’s up to the students to request them. If there is an AP for a subject, there is no honors, just regular, so many kids push themselves and take AP. My senior has taken 9.

 

[kdonnel]

A big part of that is that high school keeps getting easier and easier (as a high school teacher, I am not proud of that). We want a near-100% graduation rate, but many of our students are not willing to work like they did a generation ago -- and many families are just not supportive of education. A high school degree doesn't mean what it used to mean.

I have seen the complete opposite from my kids middle and high school experience.

They were pressured by the school into taking high school classes starting in 8th grade. My kids each took 9th grade english, 9th grade biology, 9th and 10th grade math, and the first high school spanish all while in middle school.

Kids are pressured into paying to take health and PE online over the summer between 8th and 9th grade so their schedule opens up to allow more AP classes.

My kids covered more material in more depth in high school then I remember covering in my college classes.

With the Move On When Ready (MOWR) program in my state my daughter and others are pressured into taking college classes in place of high school classes starting in 10th or 11th grade. My daughter was seen as a low achiever compared to others in the program because she graduated high school with only a semester and a half of college credit. The high achievers graduated high school having already completed two to two and a half semesters of college credit.

I was against all the pressure and was a big advocate for letting kids be kids, let college students be college students, and let young adults be young adults, but my kids both caved to peer pressure and joined the accelerated programs. I did limit my daughter to just a few college classes while in high school. I want her to be able to experience college for all four years. I see college is as much about maturing as it is about learning and skipping that maturing process puts someone at a disadvantage as a young adult recent college graduate.

Perhaps high school difficulty is regional or even local to each individual high school?

 

[MrsPete]

Yeah, I'm not sure how high school has gotten easier over the years. If anything, I think the college-for-all push has made it harder, adding graduation requirements that didn't exist a generation ago

Several people made similar comments -- I was incomplete in my statement. I was responding to the comment that employers expect more than a high school diploma these days, and I understand why -- essentially we have two high schools today:

Our average and below-average students really are doing far less to earn their diplomas. We have lowered "passing" from 70 to 60, and we no longer give homework -- students won't do it, and parents don't support it. Attendance is more flexible than it was in the past, and second chances are offered for ... well, everything; we aren't allowed to give zeros unless the student has had a chance to make up the work during school hours (even weeks and weeks later). If your goal is JUST to get a diploma, you have to be a real slack-off not to do it. I teach this group, and it's getting harder every year; it really makes me worry about our future as a society.

Our upper echelon students -- those who are taking AP classes and are pushing themselves for more than simply a diploma -- those who are headed for college -- are far surpassing those minimal requirements. I'd say they make up 25-30% of our student body, but I wasn't thinking about them when I commented yesterday.

 

[Hrhpd]

Several people made similar comments -- I was incomplete in my statement. I was responding to the comment that employers expect more than a high school diploma these days, and I understand why -- essentially we have two high schools today:

Our average and below-average students really are doing far less to earn their diplomas. We have lowered "passing" from 70 to 60, and we no longer give homework -- students won't do it, and parents don't support it. Attendance is more flexible than it was in the past, and second chances are offered for ... well, everything; we aren't allowed to give zeros unless the student has had a chance to make up the work during school hours (even weeks and weeks later). If your goal is JUST to get a diploma, you have to be a real slack-off not to do it. I teach this group, and it's getting harder every year; it really makes me worry about our future as a society.

Our upper echelon students -- those who are taking AP classes and are pushing themselves for more than simply a diploma -- those who are headed for college -- are far surpassing those minimal requirements. I'd say they make up 25-30% of our student body, but I wasn't thinking about them when I commented yesterday.

That must be very disappointing that your district has lowered the standards so much. It is the complete opposite in our district and most of the state.

You have posted many times before how dismal today's school systems are. You must be blindsided by the incredibly poor standards of your school district. Since you are so unhappy and pessimistic, you should get out and teach in the better districts, which make up the majority of schools in this country, that do not hold such low standards for their students.

 

[LongLiveRafiki]

Perhaps high school difficulty is regional or even local to each individual high school?

I think it definitely depends on the school. I graduated in 2007. I moved to a different state part way through my freshman year of high school and there was a massive difference in curriculum and academic expectations. I went from a school with loads of choices and opportunities from tech paths with local colleges and advanced courses as well as basic graduation paths for those without college goals to a school that was basically 2 years behind my old one in its honors curriculum and had no opportunities other than a basic graduation path. I ended up in classes as a freshman with juniors and seniors in their honors program, and had fully exhausted their core classes by my junior year. I had to petition the school board to be permitted to go to college early because there were no academic classes left unless I wanted to repeat a class. They still don't really have a college-bound curriculum.

There are still vast differences between the district DD is in and our neighboring district, netiher of which are ones that I went to scchool in. One has just a basic high school curriculum with pretty lax homework and expectations, the other has loads of advanced courses and college-prep courses. The teachers I've spoken with say it all goes back to Elementary and the way classes are taught there. The "hard" district separates kids by grade for core classes, with an easy, medium, and more advanced level of work depending on where that individual is at. The "easy" district keeps all kids together and focuses the teaching toward the kids who are struggling most, which leaves those who have mastered the material without options to really be challenged. By high school, there's a huge difference in what the kids have learned between the two districts.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

This has become a tough thread, @HeatherC

I guess we can put education up there with parenting, breastfeeding and line cutting on the Dis!

 

[kdonnel]

This will be my first tax year with a college student. I have been trying to read up on the various tax credit and tax deduction options.

I am eagerly awaiting the 1098-T.

I was not aware that there was the American Opportunity Credit. I thought the only option was deductions via itemizations.

The American Opportunity Credit could amount to as much as $10,000 in tax CREDIT over 4 years. That is huge!

It is like the Federal government is paying $2500 ($1,000 is refundable and could just be given to the tax payer without even having a tax liability) a year for my child's college.

Thanks American tax payers for kicking in and paying for my child's college education.

 

[disykat]

We used tax credits as part of our college planning. I've always wondered why some parents won't at least pay enough of their kid's tuition to get this tax benefit. It seems like a no brainer.

We found that a lot of these little pockets of money (tax credit, small college savings we accumulated starting when they hit middle school, freed up money from our paid off mortgage, etc. along with their jobs and some small scholarships) went a long way towards helping our kids through school with way less trouble than we assumed it would be.

I think a lot of parents think there's no way they can pay the whole thing (since they didn't start socking away thousands from the time they were infants like you see recommended) so they give up on trying to help. Then students think "what's the difference between 20 or 50K (or 150!) in debt" and start making rash choices. IMO, smart decisions about the money/debt would solve a lot of the "student debt crisis."

 

[Colleen27]

Our average and below-average students really are doing far less to earn their diplomas. We have lowered "passing" from 70 to 60, and we no longer give homework -- students won't do it, and parents don't support it. Attendance is more flexible than it was in the past, and second chances are offered for ... well, everything; we aren't allowed to give zeros unless the student has had a chance to make up the work during school hours (even weeks and weeks later). If your goal is JUST to get a diploma, you have to be a real slack-off not to do it. I teach this group, and it's getting harder every year; it really makes me worry about our future as a society.

See, here has been the exact opposite. A 60% was passing when I was in school, but it takes 70%+ now. There were different ability tracks when I was in school, and those on the lowest could get through English by learning to write memos instead of essays and graduate without ever getting further in math than advanced algebra. Now even at the alternative high school, kids have to write five-page essays analyzing Beowulf and turn out a poem in iambic pentameter and take four years of math (the default goes through pre-calc) and at least two years of a foreign language. The state-mandated graduation requirements are aligned with the admissions requirements for our flagship university, which is commonly referred to as one of the so-called "public Ivies". Attendance policies can be downright draconian, but that was true in the 90s too - then and now I knew kids held back because of homelessness and other home-life dramas, and parents who had to appeal to the school board to avoid denial of credit over serious illness. The strictness or lenience of deadlines seems to be the only major difference between the regular HS and the alternative program, which does give kids a lot of room to work at their own pace.

 

[LSUmiss]

Several people made similar comments -- I was incomplete in my statement. I was responding to the comment that employers expect more than a high school diploma these days, and I understand why -- essentially we have two high schools today:

Our average and below-average students really are doing far less to earn their diplomas. We have lowered "passing" from 70 to 60, and we no longer give homework -- students won't do it, and parents don't support it. Attendance is more flexible than it was in the past, and second chances are offered for ... well, everything; we aren't allowed to give zeros unless the student has had a chance to make up the work during school hours (even weeks and weeks later). If your goal is JUST to get a diploma, you have to be a real slack-off not to do it. I teach this group, and it's getting harder every year; it really makes me worry about our future as a society.

Our upper echelon students -- those who are taking AP classes and are pushing themselves for more than simply a diploma -- those who are headed for college -- are far surpassing those minimal requirements. I'd say they make up 25-30% of our student body, but I wasn't thinking about them when I commented yesterday.

Your first category is the case for the district I work in & for the nearby district I live in. It was like that when I was a kid too but has gotten way worse. Unfortunately, for us, that means all of my friends & family have attended private school & so will/do our kids.