Blackfish

[sonnyjane]

Alright off I go!! I'll be back with a review later this afternoon!

 

[mrsclark]

DH and I just saw the movie tonight - I will write a complete post with my response in the next day or two

 

[sonnyjane]

DH and I just saw the movie tonight - I will write a complete post with my response in the next day or two

Oooh okay curious to hear your take! Here is mine:

On the whole, I think it was well-done. Unlike some documentaries (think Michael Moore-esque), this one didn't read as an all-out biased attack against Sea World. There is definite allusion to the fact that Sea World has been covering up secrets for years, but the film, in my opinion, is really more a sad story documenting the journey of a few individual orcas, mainly Tilikum. I cried... a LOT.

Mrsclark, you were absolutely right about the whole "forced to live together" thing and as you know they talked about that a lot in the film. I didn't realize what the social interactions between the other whales and Tilly were, but now it's incredibly easy to see why he did(does?) what he did. I think anyone that's ever trained an animal, whether it's a dolphin, a bird, or a dog, has likely encountered a situation in which the animal get frustrated and snaps at them or bites them or growls, etc. The different between the animals that I work with and the animals in the film are that mine, while they can inflict some bites and scratches, aren't going to kill me. I think that while all stories should be taken with a grain of salt, it's very clear that SW knew much, much more about what was going on and kept it very hush hush, not just from the public but from the trainers that could have benefited from that information for safety reasons.

It was honestly a less sensationalist film than I expected, which I think actually helps its cause. I agree with some reviews I've read that the film offers no suggestions of alternatives or call to action so it just leaves you bummed rather than inspired to do something to change it. And of course I think it would be impossible for me to leave without a little bit of "animal trainer" guilt. The whales that they show in the end of the movie that the former trainers are viewing from the boat are the same ones that I followed in Washington. It made me really miss that and I hope to make it back there to work again. My friends that still work there said there haven't been sightings of the whales in a week... very unusual. Their food supply is unstable over the last few years and pollution really does a number on them as well. I hope they return to the area shortly. Sigh.

 

[mrsclark]

I know I said I would post in a day or two, but the movie has stuck with me so much, I am going to post my thoughts now and then add anything else I come up with later!

sonnyjane, I totally agree with you - for the most part the movie was very well put together and the movie seemed to have a lot of evidence to back up what many of the former Sea World trainers and orca experts said.

Especially shocking to me, at least, was the footage from an orca attack on a trainer at Sea World in 2006 during the evening finale show - the trainer stayed calm throughout the entire episode, which most likely saved his life, but the footage was very difficult for me to watch.

By the end of the film, I was shaking with anger - for the orcas that are in captivity, for the human trainers that have been injured or killed while working with them, and for the sheer irresponsibility of Sea World as a company. I understand their goal is to make a profit as with all for-profit companies, but no company should be allowed to make a profit at any cost (and in the end, it was Dawn Brancheau that payed the ultimate price and Sea World gets to continue business as usual with minor - in comparison - changes to its operations).

Out of curiosity, after seeing the film, I read Sea World's response, which to me was very weak and didn't address the real issues of the film. I will paraphrase each of Sea World's points about the film below and then address what I took from the movie with respect to each point. To see Sea World's complete response and the filmmaker's response to Sea World - follow this link: http://blackfishmovie.com/news?seaworld_reacts_button

Sea World's 1st point paraphrased by me: The movie makes it seem as if Sea World still takes orcas from the wild and puts them into captivity - which is untrue.

My take: The movie very clearly shows that the footage of orcas caught in the wild was from decades ago and uses it as an important point to show where the main character of the film (Tilikum) came from.

SW's 2nd Point paraphrased by me: Interviews in the movie make it seem like the average life of orcas in the wild is comparable to the average life expectancy for humans and that captive orcas only live to about half of that.

My take: I agree with SW that the movie was misleading on this point - the filmmaker does have more facts posted in the link mentioned above, but I still think the movie did a poor job of conveying accurate information on this topic

SW's 3rd point paraphrased by me: Orcas in the wild also get into tussles and "rake" each other with their teeth to prove dominance

My take: While probably is true, I would like to see peer-reviewed documented evidence (or at least a link to such evidence so that I could read it and judge for myself) to determine if the damage suffered by captive orcas is comparable to fights between wild orcas. My hunch is that the damage is less in the wild, because there are endless places to escape (flight rather than fight). SW saying that just because the same type of behavior happens in the wild does not convince me that the severity or duration of the behavior is the same.

SW's 4th point paraphrased by me: SW does not break up animal families and only separates unweaned babies away if the mom is rejecting them - they say that the film implies otherwise

My take: This is where I wonder if SW even watched the whole film - I heard or saw no accusation in the film about unweaned calves. The film does talk about mothers and babies being separated, but nothing is mentioned at all about weaning. The point was that families in the wild stay together and removing it from its mother would cause great stress to both of them.

SW's 5th point paraphrased by me: SW says the film states SW uses punishment to get the animals to perform. SW also says all behaviors performed by orcas are what they do in the wild anyway.

My take: Again, not sure that SW watched the movie all that closely. The film states that the first non-Sea World park Tilikum was at used punishment to train him. The only reference to "negative" training at Sea World is withholding food to make treats tastier later during a show. While not exactly nice or fair, as long as the orcas are fed in the end (ie not starved and received their daily rations one way or another either at normal feeding times or during the show), I wouldn't exactly classify this as classical punishment. That doesn't mean I don't find it unsavory, but I think if this were SW's only problem, it could be a difference of opinion on training techniques. When I think punishment, I think physical corrections - such as shock collars (I know I can't imagine an orca with a shock collar on) or hitting or using loud noises (loud enough to damage the whale's hearing). Many people use positive reinforcement (ie treats, belly rubs, play time) to train their dogs. The film mostly showed SW trainers using food to get what they wanted from the killer whales. So, while I understand SW's point, it doesn't hold that much weight with me.

SW also says all behaviors performed by orcas are what they do in the wild anyway. Killer whales do not on command lay on their side and purposely wave at humans they come across or let humans surf on their backs in the wild - enough said on that point.

SW's 6th point as paraphrased by me: All trainers at SW knew that Tilikum was potentially dangerous

My take: The interviews in the film convinced me otherwise. The number of orca/trainer "incidents" at SW over the years makes me doubtful that trainers were fully aware of the dangers inherent on the job BUT especially with Tilikum and especially between parks (it seemed that an incident at one park was not widely reported to the trainers at another park). That is just my opinion, if SW could produce things such as training manuals, tapes of trainers being trained, etc. that would be more convincing to me. This is an issue, based on the evidence we currently have, that each person will have to judge on their own.

SW's 7th point paraphrased by me: SW claims that law enforcement not SW itself made the statement that Dawn Brancheau slipped, fell into the pool, and was then drowned by Tilikum.

SW also says they have never blamed Dawn for her own death.

My take: The film does show a sheriff saying right after the incident on a TV interview that Dawn did slip and fall into the pool. BUT unless the sheriff or another law enforcement officer was present at the actual event of Dawn Brancheau's death, then they had to get the information from somewhere. It happened on SW property and I am sure they spoke with many SW employees, this leads me to believe SW gave them this information. If SW supplied the story then it doesn't matter that law enforcement was the one to say it to the media, SW was still the source. The only way SW could get me to concede this point is if it proved that the sheriff only got the slip and fall story from park visitors and NO ONE at SW told him this story. Based on the video of Dawn laying down just before being pulled over the edge, I doubt that anyone would have said this, but if so I would like to see the proof.

Again, not sure they have watched the movie closely
SW also says they have never blamed Dawn for her own death. SW says the movie shows them blaming her - my take: An ex-SW employee does say this (and sickeningly says that Dawn would say the same thing were she still alive today), but he is clearly marked on the film as an ex employee, so no one claims in the movie that SW or their spokesperson blames Dawn.

SW's 8th point as paraphrased by me: Tilikum attacked Dawn because her ponytail interested him not out of frustration, boredom, or psychosis

My take: The movie (and the movie's response to this point on the website linked above) convinces me otherwise. They show photos of other trainers with ponytails interacting with orcas where no such incidents occurred. The film also provides evidence that Dawn was pulled in by her arm, not her ponytail. Again, each person will have to weigh the evidence and come to their own conclusion on this one, but for me SW's evidence is weak at best.

More importantly than a lot of the items above that SW did chose to comment on, there are issues I would have liked SW to address, but they did not, namely:

What are the qualifications and training needed to become a SW trainer? The film says the main requirements were physical fitness combined with strong swimming skills (I would add that all the trainers shown in the SW shows seem to be young and/or attractive and able to perform for a crowd)? Is this true or untrue?

Is it true that SW owns orcas at a park in the Canary Islands called Loro Parque? Even if SW does not own them now, did they retain ownership of them during the three years Loro Parque was still under construction while the orcas were in residence at the park? During that three year period, the orcas were eating the concrete pools they were living in and as a result had to have endoscopies to check for resulting problems. Does SW admit that they trained the trainers of Loro Parque (despite overwhelming evidence that SW did so, the head trainer at SW under oath said otherwise)?

As of 2012, OSHA ruled that trainers at SW must stay behind a barrier when working with orcas (SW is appealing). What do you say to the accusation that Tilikum lives in almost complete isolation and is only trotted out to pose for photos towards the end of a show?

What peer-reviewed scientific research do you have that killer whales thrive in captivity and social behaviors between orcas in captivity mimic exactly the social behaviors of orcas in the wild?

Finally, other than training for shows, what mental enrichment do you provide for the orcas? For example, dogs can use puzzle toys to "work" to get their food and elephants can use "tools" to work for their food as well (Toledo Zoo is a great example of this). What comparable activities do you have for SW's orcas?

SW is, of course, under no obligation to answer any of my questions, but as I have stated before, I am voting with my money and SW will not be getting my business as a tourist/consumer now or in the future. DH said after viewing the film that he was sick we went there in 2007 on our honeymoon (and to Discovery Cove). If either or both of us knew then what we know now, we wouldn't have gone.

sonnyjane, I am interested in further hearing your thoughts about the above and to anyone reading this thread who has seen the movie, please post your review here as well!

 

[sonnyjane]

For the most part I agree with your comments, so I'm only skipping through quoting the ones that I have something to add/ask about

SW's 2nd Point paraphrased by me: Interviews in the movie make it seem like the average life of orcas in the wild is comparable to the average life expectancy for humans and that captive orcas only live to about half of that.

My take: I agree with SW that the movie was misleading on this point - the filmmaker does have more facts posted in the link mentioned above, but I still think the movie did a poor job of conveying accurate information on this topic

Just curious what part do you think is misleading about this? Orcas in the wild really do live 60-80 years, with the outliers near 100. This is documented photographically through annual census data.

SW's 3rd point paraphrased by me: Orcas in the wild also get into tussles and "rake" each other with their teeth to prove dominance

My take: While probably is true, I would like to see peer-reviewed documented evidence (or at least a link to such evidence so that I could read it and judge for myself) to determine if the damage suffered by captive orcas is comparable to fights between wild orcas. My hunch is that the damage is less in the wild, because there are endless places to escape (flight rather than fight). SW saying that just because the same type of behavior happens in the wild does not convince me that the severity or duration of the behavior is the same.

This one is tricky. Raking is absolutely natural and dolphins/orcas do it regularly. In fact one type of dolphin called a Risso's dolphin (google image it) appears white from a distance because they are so badly scarred from rakes. It's totally natural for them. The raking footage in the movie is hard because it's fresh so they are bleeding. In the wild I don't know if that's a typical depth of a rake or if that's just how bad it looks when it first happens.

SW's 5th point paraphrased by me: SW says the film states SW uses punishment to get the animals to perform. SW also says all behaviors performed by orcas are what they do in the wild anyway.

My take: Again, not sure that SW watched the movie all that closely. The film states that the first non-Sea World park Tilikum was at used punishment to train him. The only reference to "negative" training at Sea World is withholding food to make treats tastier later during a show. While not exactly nice or fair, as long as the orcas are fed in the end (ie not starved and received their daily rations one way or another either at normal feeding times or during the show), I wouldn't exactly classify this as classical punishment. That doesn't mean I don't find it unsavory, but I think if this were SW's only problem, it could be a difference of opinion on training techniques. When I think punishment, I think physical corrections - such as shock collars (I know I can't imagine an orca with a shock collar on) or hitting or using loud noises (loud enough to damage the whale's hearing). Many people use positive reinforcement (ie treats, belly rubs, play time) to train their dogs. The film mostly showed SW trainers using food to get what they wanted from the killer whales. So, while I understand SW's point, it doesn't hold that much weight with me.

As an animal trainer, that line perked up my ears because we use food to train our animals and call it "positive reinforcement". In other words, if they do the desired behavior, they get treats. Calling it punishment for NOT giving the food is a way of saying the same thing but making it sound bad. It's like saying "if you clean your room, I'll give you a cupcake". If you don't clean your room and therefore I don't give you the cupcake, is that really "punishment"?

SW also says all behaviors performed by orcas are what they do in the wild anyway. Killer whales do not on command lay on their side and purposely wave at humans they come across or let humans surf on their backs in the wild - enough said on that point.

Interestingly, if you listen to the clip that I believe Dawn is saying during the show, she says "All of their behaviors are extensions of behaviors they perform in the wild". That's PR speak. In their defense, I think what they mean is that jumping out of the water, etc. is not unnatural for them. It's not like making a dog jump rope or a parrot ride a bike.


More importantly than a lot of the items above the SW did chose to comment on, there are issues I would have liked SW to address, but they did not, namely:

What are the qualifications and training needed to become a SW trainer? The film says the main requirements were physical fitness combined with strong swimming skills (I would add that all the trainers shown in the SW shows seem to be young and/or attractive and able to perform for a crowd)? Is this true or untrue?

This is absolutely true and I can attest to that. You can find that out if you ever see a job posting for SW mammal trainers online. They don't come up very often. Most are internal positions that only current employees can see, but every so often one comes up that's posted externally. You need a high school diploma, you have to pass a pretty decent swim test that includes underwater breath holding and diving to the bottom of a very cold, very deep pool, and then you have to immediately pop out onto the deck and do a peppy smiley presentation with a script. You do not have to have any marine mammal experience. You do not have to have any training experience. These swim tests are offered a few times a year and gather dozens of applicants. Your physical appearance is VERY MUCH considered. As was shown in the movie, it's a lot of luck falling into those positions, not necessarily skill.

Is it true that SW owns orcas at a park in the Canary Islands called Loro Parque? Even if SW does not own them now, did they retain ownership of them during the three years Loro Parque was still under construction while the orcas were in residence at the park? During that three year period, the orcas were eating the concrete pools they were living in and as a result had to have endoscopies to check for resulting problems? Does SW admit that they trained the trainers of Loro Parque (despite overwhelming evidence that SW did so, the head trainer at SW under oath said otherwise)?
I don't know the conditions of that transaction. It sounds like they were sold to Loro Parque and not on loan. That situation is RIDICULOUS. They should not have shipped them if it wasn't ready.

sonnyjane, I am interested in further hearing your thoughts about the above and to anyone reading this thread who has seen the movie, please post your review here as well!

I posted my review above but yours is WAYYY more detailed lol! Well done, I'm not sure what your background is but you're really quite knowledgeable about a lot of this stuff. I'm glad you got to see it. I posted about the movie on my facebook and a lot of my animal trainer friends told me that they don't think they can see it because they can't handle it. I told them that I felt I had to see it out of obligation. For example if you're going to eat meat (which I do), I feel like you are at least obligated to educate yourself about the plight of animals raised for consumption (and I have... and unfortunately I'm still a big jerk and eat them). If I'm going to work with animals in captivity, I feel like I have to see this side of the story and then decide how I feel about things. At this point, I'm still okay about the fact that my institution is a not-for-profit and that all profits go toward conservation of endangered species, research, and facility improvements. If that weren't true I think I'd be really torn with it.

 

[summerrluvv]

I'm so glad I found this thread, and have enjoyed reading everyone's point of view. After reading all of the things I've read about SW, the Orcas, Dawn's death, etc., I'm ashamed that I took my son there several years ago. He has special needs, and loved every second of watching the Orcas during the show. I've never seen him smile and clap so much. But alas, we won't be going again. My 6 y/o daughter loves dolphins and orcas, and I had to explain to her why we won't be going to Sea World when we go to FL this month. I also told her that SW has done a really great job at tricking everyone into thinking that the Orcas really enjoy being there. But they don't. I'm so glad she "gets" it.

Anyway, hoping to see the movie soon! I came across the trailer a few weeks ago, and have been very eager to see it!

 

[sonnyjane]

I'm so glad I found this thread, and have enjoyed reading everyone's point of view. After reading all of the things I've read about SW, the Orcas, Dawn's death, etc., I'm ashamed that I took my son there several years ago. He has special needs, and loved every second of watching the Orcas during the show. I've never seen him smile and clap so much. But alas, we won't be going again. My 6 y/o daughter loves dolphins and orcas, and I had to explain to her why we won't be going to Sea World when we go to FL this month. I also told her that SW has done a really great job at tricking everyone into thinking that the Orcas really enjoy being there. But they don't. I'm so glad she "gets" it.

Anyway, hoping to see the movie soon! I came across the trailer a few weeks ago, and have been very eager to see it!

Funny what you said about not visiting SW this month. One of the perks of my job is that we get 4 free tix to SW every year. I was going through my drawer and found the passes and thought "ugh, I don't even want to use these, maybe I'll give them away", but then I thought "I can't give them away because then someone ELSE will go and have a wonderful time and spend money!"

I don't know what I'm expecting. I don't expect them to release them all tomorrow. What I do want is some acknowledgement that what's shown in the film is true. Some form of apology and a plan of action moving forward. As I've mentioned, I have several friends that work there and they had a meeting about the film. They were told that they were never asked to comment (the film says they declined to comment repeatedly) and that the trainers interviewed are all lying. When you see them telling their stories, crying regrettably about what their involvement, I don't believe they are lying. Full disclosure, I do believe that at least some of the trainers interviewed were fired so have bad blood, but I don't doubt that what they say is true. I've been against orcas in captivity for a while but this film takes it off the back-burner for me and I'm feeling very strongly about it now.

 

[lexandme]

I urge everyone that has read this thread, has seen the movie or thinks cetacean captivity is wrong to continue to research and learn about it. Very good resources are Sea Shepherd Cove Guardians or the Ric O'Barry Dolphin Project. (Both have Facebook pages) They continue to fight the good fight and I urge you all to remain involved. I love the passion I'm seeing here!
As horrible as Sea World is, there are some that are much worse. The Miami Seaquarium, Marineland in Niagara Falls Canada are hell on earth for these beings.
Can they all be rehabbed and released? I don't know. What I do know is we need to try. And breeding in captivity must stop. We can no longer allow this to continue.

"No sooner does man discover intelligence than he tries to involve it in his own stupidity.
No aquarium, no tank in a marine land, however spacious it may be, can begin to duplicate the conditions of the sea. And no dolphin who inhabits one of those aquariums or one of those marine lands can be considered normal."

Jacques-Yve Cousteau

 

[sonnyjane]

Lexandme, Miami Seaquarium is the WORST. I lived there for 7 years and absolutely refused to go. Awful. Just awful. Lolita has surpassed my wildest expectations as far as lifespan in those conditions but unfortunately that just means she has had to live longer and longer in that tiny tiny pool.

 

[JakeJenna]

I'm all for animal rights but just out of curiosity I searched human trafficking on this board and the last thread here was 17 months ago and only two pages. That's where I would personally love to see outrage and demands of action. But I guess we will just focus on whales for now.

 

[sonnyjane]

I'm all for animal rights but just out of curiosity I searched human trafficking on this board and the last thread here was 17 months ago and only two pages. That's where I would personally love to see outrage and demands of action. But I guess we will just focus on whales for now.

There's no universal rule that the mistreatment of humans has to take priority over the mistreatment of animals in MY level of outrage. It's perfectly fine if that's how your hierarchy works. There's a lot of crap happening in the world. Should someone be upset at someone for wanting to cure cancer instead of AIDS when both are legitimately terrible?

 

[Dsnyfireman]

There's no universal rule that the mistreatment of humans has to take priority over the mistreatment of animals in MY level of outrage. It's perfectly fine if that's how your hierarchy works. There's a lot of crap happening in the world. Should someone be upset at someone for wanting to cure cancer instead of AIDS when both are legitimately terrible?

But both of those effect humans, more so than animals! If people learned real respect than neither human or animal abuse would occur. I have no issue with sea world or a zoo or AK having animals, that is how most of us ever see some of these animals. I think people that put animals in the same league as humans need some real help! People come first! Just be kind to both.

 

[sonnyjane]

But both of those effect humans, more so than animals! If people learned real respect than neither human or animal abuse would occur. I have no issue with sea world or a zoo or AK having animals, that is how most of us ever see some of these animals. I think people that put animals in the same league as humans need some real help! People come first! Just be kind to both.

Really? Look, I'm not a bleeding heart PETA person or anything but I take offense to that. If there were a fire and I could only save one - my husband or my pet - I would save my husband (and consequently be devastated). I understand that the life of an animal is not 100% equal to the life of a human. That absolutely doesn't mean I have to care about human trafficking more than I care about issues like animal abuse. Not. At. All. If I need "some real help", I promise I have tons of friends that will all be seeking help together.

And that "People come first!" mentality is a real reason our planet is totally screwed up right now and while it helps the "people" that are alive and dwelling on earth currently, generations from now, because "people came first", people are going to be in a really bad spot.

 

[MagicallyDelicious]

I think people that put animals in the same league as humans need some real help!

Looks like I need real help then. Thanks for the diagnosis.

 

[sonnyjane]

Looks like I need real help then. Thanks for the diagnosis.

 

[TinkerBelled]

But both of those effect humans, more so than animals! If people learned real respect than neither human or animal abuse would occur. I have no issue with sea world or a zoo or AK having animals, that is how most of us ever see some of these animals. I think people that put animals in the same league as humans need some real help! People come first! Just be kind to both.

Depends what you mean. If you mean people who think animals should vote, I agree with you. If you mean people who think animals deserve compassion, I don't.

Look, if the deal was that Sea World existed and in exchange, presto, there was no more cancer, I'd be humanly selfish and say keep it. But the deal is that Sea World exists so that humans can have some entertainment, and I don't think that's a fair exchange.

 

[sonnyjane]

Depends what you mean. If you mean people who think animals should vote, I agree with you. If you mean people who think animals deserve compassion, I don't.

Look, if the deal was that Sea World existed and in exchange, presto, there was no more cancer, I'd be humanly selfish and say keep it. But the deal is that Sea World exists so that humans can have some entertainment, and I don't think that's a fair exchange.

I may have to use this in potential future arguments. Storing it in my brain

 

[Zooshoveller]

Again, please note, all comments below are made with the disclaimer that I am not a biologist, animal behaviorist, vet or any other professional wildlife/animal specialist, just an animal lover that is especially interested in the topic of animal intelligence, cognition and social behavior.

I HAVE thought deeply about the role of zoos and places like Animal Kingdom in our modern world. As noted by pp sonnyjane, I think whether it is "ok" or not to keep an animal in captivity is determined by whether the species in general tends to thrive, survive, or do worse in captivity than in the wild.

I also think it is important to examine the institution holding the animal and judging what its care standards are - first, basics like cleanliness and providing food, water and medical care. Second, is providing adequate living space and proper social companions (where possible and appropriate). And third, one of the things I think is often overlooked, but ever more crucial as we learn more and more about animal intelligence and cognition, is proper outlets for natural behavior AND a varied and challenging enrichment program. A good book on the topic which I thoroughly enjoyed is A Different Nature: The Paradoxical World of Zoos and Their Uncertain Future by David Hancocks. (Another book I own, but have not read yet, so I can make no recommendation about, that covers this topic is Zoo Story: Life in the Garden of Captives by Thomas French).

As an example, I was at the Toledo Zoo last year and was very impressed with the design and animal enrichment activities taking place at the new elephant space. And frankly, with as much poaching as there is going on in Africa right now for the ivory trade, I am happy that elephants are being well cared for and mentally stimulated here in responsible institutions.

And it is not just because SeaWorld rather than Disney is holding the orcas that I find it objectionable. I think each species should be evaluated on how well that species does in captivity and a personal judgement made from there. For me, orcas in capitivity do not meet requirements that I am number one: comfortable with and number two: going to pay for/support with my dollars.

I agree that the issue of captivity is best broken down by species rather than in generalizations. I believe zoos and places like AK play a vital role in reconnecting or introducing a largely urban and suburban audience to nature - provoking awe is one way to get people to care about what is happening in the wild. I once visited a penguin at our local zoo that was swimming by me behind a plexiglass barrier - the penguin looked me right in the eye, whipped its tail at me, splashed water over the top of the barrier and right onto my head! Real connections between animals and people can make a world of difference when it comes to thinking about human trash, pollution, global warming, habitat destruction, etc and bring it down to a very real, individual level. Zoos can make the abstract and far away seem more real and important.

Responsible zoos also play a role in properly managing species breeding AND many have field projects to save animals in the wild. For example, the St. Louis Zoo has a program in place to breed Ozark hellbenders - not exactly the glamorous mega fauna like the killer whale, but an important conservation project. So I do think zoos have an important place in our world.

I think another problem I have is I just don't believe SeaWorld is putting animal welfare ahead of everything else including profits. Case in point is Tilikum. Tilikum is a wild-caught orca (caught near Iceland in 1983) who was acquired by a now-defunct marine park and then later by SeaWorld. Tilikum has participated in/the cause of three human deaths. After the latest death in 2010, Tilikum was kept out of the shows at SeaWorld, but then was returned to the shows (to the best of my knowledge) as of spring 2011 - about one year after the death of the last trainer he killed. Tilikum is literally a wild animal and obviously dangerous. He has been in captivity for too long to safely or humanely return him to the wild, BUT is the best answer to this problem really putting him back on display in a show where orcas do the famous Shamu smile and are there to entertain a paying audience??? Is that the best SeaWorld could come up with?

Even though no trainers are allowed in the water with him at this time, when he killed the last trainer, no one was supposed to be in the water with him either - the trainer was pulled off the ledge she was on. Wouldn't it be best to retire him from the show and build a holding area or sea pen for him rather than putting him back on "exhibit?" There are no easy answers as to what to do with a wild-caught dangerous animal that that proves just how dangerous he is and perhaps no perfect solution, but I find it distasteful that he is still performing to crowds under the banner of Shamu-entertainment.

My proposed solution:
First, I think breeding of orcas in captivity for the purpose of putting them in an entertainment setting such as shows at SeaWorld should stop.

Second, I do not believe that any of the orcas currently kept in captivity at SeaWorld should be returned to the wild - that would surely be a death sentence. BUT that does not mean that just because we cannot release them that we should just keep the status quo. As I mentioned above, I think animals like Tilikum should be retired from show business. I also believe that with all the animal lovers in the world and all the sanctuaries that have been created and continue to be supported for chimps, former pet parrots, and even some farm animals, etc. that an innovative and creative team of people could come up with a non-profit solution of where to house and keep Tilikum and others like him IF SeaWorld agreed to give them up (which I have no faith they would do because Shamu is a major profit center for them).

Third, just because orcas should not be kept in captivity does not mean no animals should ever be kept in captivity - see my first points at the top of the thread - each species needs to be judged on its own. For example, humpback whales are not kept in captivity and I am not sure there are many people that would argue they should be due to sheer size. Great white sharks are another species that tend to do poorly in captivity (for a great documentary look at a Great White kept temporarily in captivity, then released back to the wild and tracked to see what would happen afterwards see Nature on PBS - Episode Oceans In Glass: Behind The Scenes of the Monterey Bay Aquarium), but does that mean goldfish or starfish or pufferfish or clown fish shouldn't be kept in an aquarium - to me that argument just doesn't follow logically - again see my criteria at the top of the post.

Finally, if an animal species were alive ONLY in captivity (ie extinct in the wild) then it would be imperative to breed and keep said species while under the moral obligation to provide, care, socialization and mental enrichment. If orcas were extinct in the wild, I would still object to them being entertainment at a for-profit company because as a species they tend to do poorly in that environment, BUT I would have less objection to them being bred and kept at SeaWorld. HOWEVER, as we are not at the point where SeaWorld has the only living orcas on earth, this is moot.

I am a professional and this is one of the most beautifully written statements! Thank you!

 

[lexandme]

Jakejenna - I'm sure if you started a thread to discuss human trafficking you could begin a spirited discussion.

This thread was started to discuss "Blackfish". And that's ok. I have appreciated the intelligent and thoughtful statements and responses I have been reading.

Dsnyfireman - I've been told by many people that I need help!

We all have our causes. Just because someone is passionate about animal rights doesn't mean they care less about human rights. Here's my story - I am a 59 year old grandmother, a bleeding heart old hippie. My husband and I are raising our 5 year old grandson because our daughter is currently incapable. My husband teaches special education in a public high school. I work as a social worker assisting homeless veterans. You know, the brave men and women that fought for our country, came home and cannot find work and have no resources to pay for shelter for themselves, spouses and children. Most have been diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder and/or traumatic brain injury and cannot work. Social workers do not make a lot of money. So in order to pay for our Disney trips I work a second job writing behavioral plans for mentally challenged adults. I would love to take on the cause of human trafficking but I cannot. I think I give back a lot to my community.
As stated in a previous post I have championed the rights of cetaceans for 40 years. My brother and I took a trip to Sea World in Ohio (now closed) in the early 70's. I left there sickened. I still feel the same way. I'm not giving up now. I'll continue to educate others about this injustice until my last breath. If this makes me a crazy person in need of help, so be it. Better to act on your passion than sit and do nothing except point a finger.

 

[mrsclark]

I'm all for animal rights but just out of curiosity I searched human trafficking on this board and the last thread here was 17 months ago and only two pages. That's where I would personally love to see outrage and demands of action. But I guess we will just focus on whales for now.

But both of those effect humans, more so than animals! If people learned real respect than neither human or animal abuse would occur. I have no issue with sea world or a zoo or AK having animals, that is how most of us ever see some of these animals. I think people that put animals in the same league as humans need some real help! People come first! Just be kind to both.

This thread has a natural home on the Disboards because SW is a topic of these boards and a theme park. I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that all of us have in common an interest in theme parks which is why we joined these boards in the first place. Logically following, there is a brand new film out about a theme park a lot of us theme-park goers have been to (or in some cases still go to), so it seems very natural to me that this a topic of conversation here.

If you would like to start a thread about human trafficking (or AIDS or cancer) and how that relates to the theme park world, I would be more than happy to read it and add my thoughts if I think I have anything useful to say on the topic.

Animal intelligence and cognition are topics of very deep interest to me. You didn't ask, but I also happen to be interested in literature, kids/YA literature, history (economic, social, military and political/diplomatic history), nature, science, current events (both national and international) and the criminal justice system. I am happy that different people are deeply passionate about different topics - the world would be one-dimensional if everyone had the same level of enthusiasm about exactly the same things. I happen to think that it is our different passions that can, in the end, make the world a better place for all living creatures - I am sorry that we seem to disagree on that point.