HELP me get my 6 month old to sleep! PLEASE! (update post 74)

[badblackpug]

People have said mean things about my method of raising my daughter, and it doesn't offend or insult me. I think you need to turn down the sensitivity meter when posting online.

Additionally, there are studies that show CIO is detrimental to a child. I don't know if I can post links on this board or not, but I'd be happy to PM them to you, if you'd like to look at them and see that I am backing up what I am saying. Additionally, I pointed out that there are extremes.

For instance, one guy at work told me that he let his 1 year old cry for 5 hours in her bed until she passed out. He said, in a joking way, that she was very hoarse the next day. But, "she learned her lesson!" This is not the only case of extreme CIO that I have heard of personally. For some reason, all my co-workers have suddenly decided to share un-solicited parenting advice with me, and they all did CIO. If I have to listen to one more person brag about how after 3 weeks, there kid stopped crying, I'm going to start crying!



Good for your child. That is most certainly not the case with all babies.



So, I'm not allowed to say I don't understand?

What if someone said to you, "I hate Disneyworld. It's boring, stupid, and I didn't have any fun when I was there. Food was awful, rides were dull, and the characters were silly." Would you say, "Oh, I completely understand!" No, you'd probably say, "I don't get that. We have an awesome time. Maybe you had a bad experience? I could offer some tips to you that might help you have more fun next time?"

But because I love nursing and parenting my daughter to sleep, there is something wrong with me saying that I don't understand why people don't enjoy doing that?



You really are comparing me not putting my daughter in a crib and letting her cry herself to sleep to letting her do whatever she wants?

Thank you for making two points for me:

1. People who don't do CIO with their babies are viewed as wishy-washy parents who don't have boundaries and discipline.

2. People often mistake babies for tiny adults and try to act the same way towards both. Thinking that you need to "teach" your baby to sleep now or all h-e-double hockey sticks will break loose when she is 13 is just plain silly. Babies are incapable of manipulation, for instance. My daughter cries to fill a need- I'm sick, I'm hungry, I hurt, I'm cold, I'm sleepy, I'm lonely, I'm scared. She doesn't think, hmmm, I really would like to eat right now, but I know I just ate an hour ago. Maybe I can trick mom into feeding me some more. You cannot attribute cognitive skills that are far beyond a baby's capability. Babies only know needs, not wants. They can't manipulate until they are older. They can't understand cause and effect until they are older.

When my daughter is a teenager, of course I won't still be fitting my life around hers. That was a plain ridiculous assumption to draw from what I said.

You really just don't get it, do you? No one gives a rat's behind how you choose to parent your child. It's your kid, do what you want. The issue here is you have offered a ton of unsolicited and, frankly, insulting opinions about other people's parenting choices. The Op asked for suggestions about how to get her child to sleep. You went on a diatribe about other people's advice. You offered a lot of quite insulting opinions about other peoples parenting methods. You suggested that people who did not agree with your methods were psychologically damaging their children. You made the implication that people who chose other methods were bad parents. Do you truly not understand why people are insulted? Seriously?

...and as a PP said, if you do a web search you can basically find any information you want supporting your opinion. I can find hundreds of articles stating that "attachment parenting" is a bunch of hooey. I can find hundreds of articles that stating that sleeping with your children is psychologically damaging and physically dangerous. ....in addition, as a nurse, I can offer up 4 actual cases of babies who died as a result of sleeping with their parents.... etc...etc...etc..

The point is, you need to do what is right for you, and let others do what is right for them. No one solicited your opinion about their parenting techniques. The OP asked for advice on how to get her 6 month old to sleep. The productive thing would have been to offer her that advice, and keep the opinions to yourself.

 

[tiffjoy]

You really just don't get it, do you? No one gives a rat's behind how you choose to parent your child. It's your kid, do what you want. The issue here is you have offered a ton of unsolicited and, frankly, insulting opinions about other people's parenting choices. The Op asked for suggestions about how to get her child to sleep. You went on a diatribe about other people's advice. You offered a lot of quite insulting opinions about other peoples parenting methods. You suggested that people who did not agree with your methods were psychologically damaging their children. You made the implication that people who chose other methods were bad parents. Do you truly not understand why people are insulted? Seriously?

...and as a PP said, if you do a web search you can basically find any information you want supporting your opinion. I can find hundreds of articles stating that "attachment parenting" is a bunch of hooey. I can find hundreds of articles that stating that sleeping with your children is psychologically damaging and physically dangerous. ....in addition, as a nurse, I can offer up 4 actual cases of babies who died as a result of sleeping with their parents.... etc...etc...etc..

The point is, you need to do what is right for you, and let others do what is right for them. No one solicited your opinion about their parenting techniques. The OP asked for advice on how to get her 6 month old to sleep. The productive thing would have been to offer her that advice, and keep the opinions to yourself.

Oh, I see. I can't post on a public forum in response to posts. But you can.

 

[polineedyan]

how come I didnt get this kinda drama with my '7 year old afraid to fly' thread?

 

[badblackpug]

Oh, I see. I can't post on a public forum in response to posts. But you can.

Again, and finally, you have the right to any opinion you want, but offering up insults and then trying to camouflage them by saying "It's my opinion" is not appreciated. As a previous poster said, you are very strident in your opinions, and the fact that you have basically said that any method other than yours psychologically damages children can be very insulting to some.

...and again, and finally, oftentimes it is not WHAT you say, but HOW you say it.

 

[DVCLiz]

I wish I knew as much about parenting now - when my children are 21 and 16 - as I did when they were newborns and toddlers. I knew everything about parenting from the time I became pregnant until they were about age 8 or 10 - then I began to know less and less and now apparently I know very little. I am often "lame", according to my dear offspring.

But I do remember when I knew it all!

 

[brergnat]

I'm trying to think of a better way to say, "WHAT A LOAD OF HOOEY!".
...and, FTR, 8.5 mos infants don't "stop nursing on their own"...but that's another can of worms.

So, you're saying you are proud that your 4 and 6yo get violently ill enough to go vomit by themselves, yet they don't wake you up? I wouldn't be singing that from the tree tops if I were you. It sounds unbelievably insensitive and pretty much makes you sound uncaring(but boy, you taught them well, I guess), but if that is what gets you praise from other moms, so be it.

Yes, he stopped nursing on his own. As in, he LITERALLY would suck for a few seconds, and stop. Every time I'd feed him. For 3 weeks. At the end of three weeks, he literally was pushing me away, turning his head away, etc. He had been bottle supplemented from birth due to a low supply on my end (I have small amount of mammary tissue, so it's not due to anything I could control...and I tried everything to increase my supply, even hormonal drug supplements for it). Bottom line was he had a much bigger appetite than I could provide for, so he lost interest in nursing when he got big enough to really require large feedings at a time. Not every mother CAN provide enought nourishment for their baby, and no, I did not feel good about that.

And, I am NOT proud of the fact that my son will get sick in the middle of the night and not wake me, but how do you think I KNOW it happens? I wake up. Duh! I hear him...my room is 10 feet from the bathroom, and I sleep with the door wide open. I told that story to illustrate the level of independence my children have, which I AM proud of, and which I feel kids need. Of course, this same 5 year old insists on doing almost EVERYTHING for himself, including cooking his own meals (at the stove) most of the time AND doing his own laundry. He has autism, and likes to be in control of everything in his life. And, I let him be, as long as it's safe. I supervise him always. He is still a child, and I'm not an idiot. I would (and have) slept on the floor in my boys room when they've been very sick with respiratory illnesses, just so I could be sure to listen to their breathing. I have spent I don't know how many sleepless nights due to ME caring so much about my kids. They could be sleeping away just fine, but I still worry. I resent the implication that I am some sort of absent parent. You have no idea how much attention I give my kids. NO idea. Try parenting two Autistic kids and then get back to me, and we'll see how high you are on your horse then...

 

[princessmom29]

Yes, he stopped nursing on his own. As in, he LITERALLY would suck for a few seconds, and stop. Every time I'd feed him. For 3 weeks. At the end of three weeks, he literally was pushing me away, turning his head away, etc. He had been bottle supplemented from birth due to a low supply on my end (I have small amount of mammary tissue, so it's not due to anything I could control...and I tried everything to increase my supply, even hormonal drug supplements for it). Bottom line was he had a much bigger appetite than I could provide for, so he lost interest in nursing when he got big enough to really require large feedings at a time. Not every mother CAN provide enought nourishment for their baby, and no, I did not feel good about that.

And, I am NOT proud of the fact that my son will get sick in the middle of the night and not wake me, but how do you think I KNOW it happens? I wake up. Duh! I hear him...my room is 10 feet from the bathroom, and I sleep with the door wide open. I told that story to illustrate the level of independence my children have, which I AM proud of, and which I feel kids need. Of course, this same 5 year old insists on doing almost EVERYTHING for himself, including cooking his own meals (at the stove) most of the time AND doing his own laundry. He has autism, and likes to be in control of everything in his life. And, I let him be, as long as it's safe. I supervise him always. He is still a child, and I'm not an idiot. I would (and have) slept on the floor in my boys room when they've been very sick with respiratory illnesses, just so I could be sure to listen to their breathing. I have spent I don't know how many sleepless nights due to ME caring so much about my kids. They could be sleeping away just fine, but I still worry. I resent the implication that I am some sort of absent parent. You have no idea how much attention I give my kids. NO idea. Try parenting two Autistic kids and then get back to me, and we'll see how high you are on your horse then...

I NEVER had enough supply to nurse effectively. I have been there. I have seen many 8.5 month old babies who have self weaned. One of my best friend's children lost interest at 6 months. The other one had to be cut off at 15 months. All kids are different, and some DO in fact self wean before one year. I don't know where the poster that was responding to you got the idea that they do not.

Don't worry, apparently everyone here who doesn't jump and run everytime baby wimpers are right there with you psychologically damaging our children, although I have yet to see the results of that personally. My DD is bright, energetic, independent, loving, Secure and happy. I cannot se that she has ben "damaged" in any way by being taught from and early age how to bwe self sufficient nad not have to depend on my for comfort any time something is the least bit upsetting. I do however see many children around us whose parents still jump and run at every little thing, and let's just say the results are less than optimal. DD has classmates who are ill equipped to deal with ANYTHING unpleasant, and I didn't really get why the particular chidren actedthat way until I saw them with thier parents and realized that the parents were doing it for them. I know some will argue that this is a totally different issue, but for many of them it started with running everytime they cried as a baby, and just never stopped. I know this because I see the parents doing it with younger siblings.

 

[rparmfamily]

LOL, the comparision between behavior of an older child (what age?) and answering a babies cry is cracking me up. My older chldren have guidelines and boundries, my baby doesn't understand most of that (though she is at an age where she starting to learn) but her cries are REAL and her needs are REAL and I answer to both of those. I redirect her away from behavior that could be dangerous or is not nice (like pulling hair,etc) but she still gets responded to. I'm not out to "train" her, and if anything, if she's crying in her crib and wants out, by not responding I'm teaching her she can't count on me. I want her to know I'm here, I'll respond. I may only come in and comfort her, pat her back, sing, etc, but I WILL respond and not ignore her. My baby just turned 12 months this month, so she's still a baby.

I have older kids (nearly 10 is my oldest) and they were all loved and responded to as children. They are fine, independent and behaved children.

Now giving in to every whim to a toddler or preschooler I think does build up issues that will have to be dealt with, but a BABY? No way.

 

[rbork]

To the OP,
Glad to hear the sleeping thing is improving for you and your baby.
From,
a proud bottle feeding, CIO mom of 2 healthy, honor roll students.
Good Luck and Do what's right for you

 

[princessmom29]

LOL, the comparision between behavior of an older child (what age?) and answering a babies cry is cracking me up. My older chldren have guidelines and boundries, my baby doesn't understand most of that (though she is at an age where she starting to learn) but her cries are REAL and her needs are REAL and I answer to both of those. I redirect her away from behavior that could be dangerous or is not nice (like pulling hair,etc) but she still gets responded to. I'm not out to "train" her, and if anything, if she's crying in her crib and wants out, by not responding I'm teaching her she can't count on me. I want her to know I'm here, I'll respond. I may only come in and comfort her, pat her back, sing, etc, but I WILL respond and not ignore her. My baby just turned 12 months this month, so she's still a baby.

I have older kids (nearly 10 is my oldest) and they were all loved and responded to as children. They are fine, independent and behaved children.

Now giving in to every whim to a toddler or preschooler I think does build up issues that will have to be dealt with, but a BABY? No way.

It is not a comparison, but a contium. A baby who has a parent the jumps that every wimper becomes a toddler who expects mom to jump at every wimper, that toddler becomes a preschooler who expects mom to "fix" everything that is wrong. If that is not the case there had to be some point where the beahior of the parent changed and they are no longer responding every time the child wants them to. Agian, no one her is propsing leaving a child in a crib to cry for hours on end, but rather that sometimes babies just cry and need to begin to learn to sort out thier feelings on their own and develop some sort of coping skills. By jumping in immediately every time they cry because they are angry, fustrated, don't want to sleep in their own bed, ect. I think a parent is delaying the development of those essential skills and prolonging the amount of time the baby "needs them" for everything. That is the type of validation some moms need, but not me. The best validation of my role as mom is raising a child that is independent, compotent, and capable not clingy, needy, and dependent. For me doing that starts in infancy by teaching good sleeping habits and the ability to cope with minor annoyances without a major meltdown. I operated on the principle that am not going to swoop in and pick her up just because she is bored with the swing. I will give her a different toy, move her to the floor, or her exersaucer, but I am not going to teach her that I will come running and pick her up every time she so much as wimpers. I would never have gotten anythnig done as I would have been holding her every moment. Babies are capable of coping with minor things like being bored with a toy by 6 months of age. They are not mindless and only driven by needs. They are little people with their own likes, dislikes and agendas. They CAN absolutely learn how to put themselves to sleep, and how to cope for 5 more min. even though they are bored where they are. I think you are selling a child short by believing they are incapable of these things. They are smarter than that. I think what is more true is that some moms just need to be needed more than others.

 

[Mouse House Mama]

It is not a comparison, but a contium. A baby who has a parent the jumps that every wimper becomes a toddler who expects mom to jump at every wimper, that toddler becomes a preschooler who expects mom to "fix" everything that is wrong. If that is not the case there had to be some point where the beahior of the parent changed and they are no longer responding every time the child wants them to. Agian, no one her is propsing leaving a child in a crib to cry for hours on end, but rather that sometimes babies just cry and need to begin to learn to sort out thier feelings on their own and develop some sort of coping skills. By jumping in immediately every time they cry because they are angry, fustrated, don't want to sleep in their own bed, ect. I think a parent is delaying the development of those essential skills and prolonging the amount of time the baby "needs them" for everything. That is the type of validation some moms need, but not me. The best validation of my role as mom is raising a child that is independent, compotent, and capable not clingy, needy, and dependent. For me doing that starts in infancy by teaching good sleeping habits and the ability to cope with minor annoyances without a major meltdown. I operated on the principle that am not going to swoop in and pick her up just because she is bored with the swing. I will give her a different toy, move her to the floor, or her exersaucer, but I am not going to teach her that I will come running and pick her up every time she so much as wimpers. I would never have gotten anythnig done as I would have been holding her every moment. Babies are capable of coping with minor things like being bored with a toy by 6 months of age. They are not mindless and only driven by needs. They are little people with their own likes, dislikes and agendas. They CAN absolutely learn how to put themselves to sleep, and how to cope for 5 more min. even though they are bored where they are. I think you are selling a child short by believing they are incapable of these things. They are smarter than that. I think what is more true is that some moms just need to be needed more than others.

I completely disagree. If it worked for you then that is great.

 

[rparmfamily]

It is not a comparison, but a contium. A baby who has a parent the jumps that every wimper becomes a toddler who expects mom to jump at every wimper, that toddler becomes a preschooler who expects mom to "fix" everything that is wrong. If that is not the case there had to be some point where the beahior of the parent changed and they are no longer responding every time the child wants them to. Agian, no one her is propsing leaving a child in a crib to cry for hours on end, but rather that sometimes babies just cry and need to begin to learn to sort out thier feelings on their own and develop some sort of coping skills. By jumping in immediately every time they cry because they are angry, fustrated, don't want to sleep in their own bed, ect. I think a parent is delaying the development of those essential skills and prolonging the amount of time the baby "needs them" for everything. That is the type of validation some moms need, but not me. The best validation of my role as mom is raising a child that is independent, compotent, and capable not clingy, needy, and dependent. For me doing that starts in infancy by teaching good sleeping habits and the ability to cope with minor annoyances without a major meltdown. I operated on the principle that am not going to swoop in and pick her up just because she is bored with the swing. I will give her a different toy, move her to the floor, or her exersaucer, but I am not going to teach her that I will come running and pick her up every time she so much as wimpers. I would never have gotten anythnig done as I would have been holding her every moment. Babies are capable of coping with minor things like being bored with a toy by 6 months of age. They are not mindless and only driven by needs. They are little people with their own likes, dislikes and agendas. They CAN absolutely learn how to put themselves to sleep, and how to cope for 5 more min. even though they are bored where they are. I think you are selling a child short by believing they are incapable of these things. They are smarter than that. I think what is more true is that some moms just need to be needed more than others.

I absolutely disagree, and your last little dig is hilarious.

 

[MistressMerryweather]

Yes, he stopped nursing on his own. As in, he LITERALLY would suck for a few seconds, and stop. Every time I'd feed him. For 3 weeks. At the end of three weeks, he literally was pushing me away, turning his head away, etc. He had been bottle supplemented from birth due to a low supply on my end (I have small amount of mammary tissue, so it's not due to anything I could control...and I tried everything to increase my supply, even hormonal drug supplements for it). Bottom line was he had a much bigger appetite than I could provide for, so he lost interest in nursing when he got big enough to really require large feedings at a time. Not every mother CAN provide enought nourishment for their baby, and no, I did not feel good about that.

From what you said, your ds did not wean "on his own". He stopped because there was a lack of supply. Just because it's not your fault doesn't mean it isn't so. It sounds as though he would have continued to nurse if you did not have medical issues regarding milk supply. I'm sure that was very hard for you.

And, I am NOT proud of the fact that my son will get sick in the middle of the night and not wake me, but how do you think I KNOW it happens? I wake up. Duh! I hear him...my room is 10 feet from the bathroom, and I sleep with the door wide open. I told that story to illustrate the level of independence my children have, which I AM proud of, and which I feel kids need. Of course, this same 5 year old insists on doing almost EVERYTHING for himself, including cooking his own meals (at the stove) most of the time AND doing his own laundry. He has autism, and likes to be in control of everything in his life. And, I let him be, as long as it's safe. I supervise him always. He is still a child, and I'm not an idiot. I would (and have) slept on the floor in my boys room when they've been very sick with respiratory illnesses, just so I could be sure to listen to their breathing. I have spent I don't know how many sleepless nights due to ME caring so much about my kids. They could be sleeping away just fine, but I still worry. I resent the implication that I am some sort of absent parent. You have no idea how much attention I give my kids. NO idea. Try parenting two Autistic kids and then get back to me, and we'll see how high you are on your horse then...

*You* are the one that built your previous post up to sound magnificent, touting the wondrous effects of sleep training.

...Even when they are sick, MOST of the time, they get up, go to the bathroom, vomit, and go back to bed without me even knowing about it.

(bolding is mine)

Don't talk to me about "high horse". You said...

Here's my opinion:

Nursing to sleep and co-sleeping is the "easy way out".

You can say anything you want under the guise of "here's my opinion" but you meant it to be a slam on the way non-cio'ers parent. You knew it was not nice because you included, "flame away". Implicating that because we refuse to let our infants cry and some of us co-sleep that it is the lazy way out. So rather than take the effort to care for my children correctly...according to you...I take the easy way out? Guess I'm too lazy to spend my time properly caring for my babies. Totally not true and extremely offensive. I never implied that you were an absent parent, but you sure made your post sound that way on your own. My children are just as independent. My 5yo gets up to use the bathroom in the middle of the night and goes back to bed on her own. I'm not sure why it is okay for the cio'ers to implicate bad parenting, but as soon as the other side says anything, we get backlash. What right have you to say that just because I choose a different parenting style than yours that I am taking the "easy way out"? Don't assume that just because I choose to use gentle nighttime parenting with my babies that I will not respond to blatant remarks.

 

[Mouse House Mama]

From what you said, your ds did not wean "on his own". He stopped because there was a lack of supply. Just because it's not your fault doesn't mean it isn't so. It sounds as though he would have continued to nurse if you did not have medical issues regarding milk supply. I'm sure that was very hard for you.



*You* are the one that built your previous post up to sound magnificent, touting the wondrous effects of sleep training.


(bolding is mine)

Don't talk to me about "high horse". You said...




You can say anything you want under the guise of "here's my opinion" but you meant it to be a slam on the way non-cio'ers parent. You knew it was not nice because you included, "flame away". Implicating that because we refuse to let our infants cry and some of us co-sleep that it is the lazy way out. So rather than take the effort to care for my children correctly...according to you...I take the easy way out? Guess I'm too lazy to spend my time properly caring for my babies. Totally not true and extremely offensive. I never implied that you were an absent parent, but you sure made your post sound that way on your own. My children are just as independent. My 5yo gets up to use the bathroom in the middle of the night and goes back to bed on her own. I'm not sure why it is okay for the cio'ers to implicate bad parenting, but as soon as the other side says anything, we get backlash. What right have you to say that just because I choose a different parenting style than yours that I am taking the "easy way out"? Don't assume that just because I choose to use gentle nighttime parenting with my babies that I will not respond to blatant remarks.

I have to agree here. I don't get why it is okay for the CIO parents to make snotty comments about those who refuse to do CIO and if a non CIO parent gives their opinion they are up in arms. Many times through this thread I have seen the militant CIO posters go on and on about how you will ruin your child and marriage if you co-sleep or refuse to CIO. Yet- when the non CIO parents state that they feel CIO is cruel (which I agree) then all of a sudden we are on some sort of high horse and implying that you are bad parents?

 

[justhat]

I have to agree here. I don't get why it is okay for the CIO parents to make snotty comments about those who refuse to do CIO and if a non CIO parent gives their opinion they are up in arms. Many times through this thread I have seen the militant CIO posters go on and on about how you will ruin your child and marriage if you co-sleep or refuse to CIO. Yet- when the non CIO parents state that they feel CIO is cruel (which I agree) then all of a sudden we are on some sort of high horse and implying that you are bad parents?

I hadn't planned to come back to the insanity on this thread, but, well, here I am. I completely agree with you, MHM.


What I can't figure out is why the CIO people can't accept that there are other ways than CIO to get a baby to sleep through the night. I think all the non-CIO moms are in full agreement that CIO is a strategy, albeit one they disagree with. But the CIO moms are saying no way can a child ever learn to sleep, self-soothe, or be otherwise independent unless they use CIO. Do you seriously believe that?

I have said countless times on here that my first child coslept and night-nursed throughout the first year of her life. My 2nd child slept in his own bed (his choice) from birth, slept through the night (according to that 6 hour rule, though it wasn't my particular guideline) at 6 weeks old, 12 hours by 12 weeks, and CIO on occasion from 6-12 months.

Those kids are now 6yo and almost 4yo. My 6yo has always, always been way more independent than my son. No comparison. She was fully dressing herself by 20 months, potty trained on her own without one accident ever at 25 months, has been making her own oatmeal for breakfast for a year, etc. She also has not slept one day in our bed since she moved into her own bed at 2 years, 5 months. The one time I had her sleep with us because I hadn't finished washing her sheets at bedtime, she got up overnight, said she preferred to sleep alone, and walked back to her own bed. She NEVER asks me for help, and in fact I have to insist on doing things with/for her just so I get to spend some special time with her. That is just her personality, she loves doing things on her own, is very proud of her accomplishments, and does not like having to rely on others.

My son, otoh, would gladly let me dress him everyday (in fact, today, I did), would love to be held all the time, crawls into my bed about once a week, etc. Now, he is independent in the sense that I make him do things on his own so he learns responsibility for himself, but he much prefers "help" with everything. He would gladly sit back and let me, my husband, or our older daughter do things for him. He has always needed someone to play with him, even as an infant. Wouldn't just lay on his playmat or hang out in the jumperoo like his older sister did. You had to be with him, interacting with him. Even now at nearly 4yo he likes me to be with him and do everything with him (or he'll take his father or sister if I am unavailable). That is just his personality.

So if you were to study my family, you would come to the conclusion that CIO leads to a lack of independence, while cosleeping breeds independence. Or maybe, just maybe, it's the kid's flipping personality that dictates how independent they will be!!!

My 3rd is only 5 months, but she has always been an independent sleeper (well, once we got the reflux under control with the proper meds). Loves to sleep (only in her bed, never on the fly), falls asleep totally on her own for naps and bedtime and has from very early on. But she is my worst when it comes to amusing herself alone. She is used to having me, her daddy, or her older siblings to amuse her, so when we aren't she gets easily bored and annoyed. She'll hang out in all her play areas for a few minutes at a time, but if she doesn't see anyone she'll start to cry. But I don't just leave her there with the attitude of "deal with your own boredom" because she physically CAN'T do anything about it. If she's in the jumperoo, she's stuck there till I lift her out. If she's on her playmat, she's stuck there till I come get her. She can't just get up and get a different toy or find something interesting because she's an immobile baby. She can't even sit up to get a new view. If she's on the floor she has 2 options, her tummy or back, that's all she can do.

My ~4yo, however, has the ability to amuse himself so when he whines for my attention and I am cooking, I simply suggest he find something to play with until I am free because he has the ability to do so. A baby, particularly one who isn't crawling/walking yet (and not too many 6 month olds are truly mobile), has no options except to rely on others. So the cries are real, they really are bored, or hungry, or tired, or whatever.

 

[ccgirl]

CIO here....lets not lump everyone in one bucket. While I say CIO was best for me and my children, I certainly wouldn't judge anyone that didn't believe in it. I've said it before and I will say it again, we all do what we think is best for our children. Sounds like people are judging others just because they are a CIO or co-sleeper or whatever. Bottom line, you don't have to agree with other people's opinions but respect them and move on. We can all find "studies" that support our ways of thinking so who cares. Just do what is best for your children. Thanks.

 

[tiffjoy]

I hadn't planned to come back to the insanity on this thread, but, well, here I am.

Same here.

After being told that I "come off as incredibly strident" and that "no one gives a rat's behind how you choose to parent your child" because I have certain beliefs, although it seems the CIO supporters are completely entitled to their beliefs, I didn't feel inclined to post again. I find it very interesting that I was completely torched for what I said- told I was offering "unsolicited advice" and making "the implication that people who chose other methods were bad parents." (See post #218 and 221 for quotes).

My first post was #84, and in it, I was very polite, and just offered an opinion. I summed it up as such:
"
Again, this is just my opinion from my experience. I do understand there are different ways of raising children, adn I respect that. But I really hope that the OP can research other methods besides CIO. Above all, I think listening to your instincts is most important, and not giving in to pressure from others, or trying to make your life what is was before having a baby."

The other posters took it from there: the first reply I got was, "And you have how many kids?" That was nasty. I didn't see a single CIO parent being asked how many kids they had. In fact, when another first time mom (who pointed out she was a first time mom) said something about using CIO, that was accepted without questioning her parenting credentials. But because I said non-CIO is an option, I was immediately taken to task.

So I went on the defensive, naturally, because I felt that I have every right to present an option in a public forum.

BUT, the CIO parents, I see, are completely free to say that non-CIO parents are bad parents, by saying things like non-CIO parents are "delaying the development of those essential skills and prolonging the amount of time the baby "needs them" for everything" and "that some moms just need to be needed more than others." (post #230). So, this implies that non-CIO moms are needy, over-protective and selfish. Hmmm.... isn't that a slam, which I was accused of doing, and so told to bug off?

What I can't figure out is why the CIO people can't accept that there are other ways than CIO to get a baby to sleep through the night. I think all the non-CIO moms are in full agreement that CIO is a strategy, albeit one they disagree with. But the CIO moms are saying no way can a child ever learn to sleep, self-soothe, or be otherwise independent unless they use CIO. Do you seriously believe that?

Yes, it seems that the general consensus is that the non-CIO group are over-protective, selfish, lazy and are raising children who will be selfish, need, incapable of coping, have no boundries, and incapable of sleeping through the night even in high school... none of these were items I pulled out of the air- each one has come from a post in this thread. And there were tons more judgmental accusations about the type of kids non-CIO parents are raising.

But, heaven forbid that the non-CIO defend themselves by saying that CIO can be harmful. Then, we are called judgmental and told we are offering unsolicited opinions and trying to push our agenda on others.

My ~4yo, however, has the ability to amuse himself so when he whines for my attention and I am cooking, I simply suggest he find something to play with until I am free because he has the ability to do so. A baby, particularly one who isn't crawling/walking yet (and not too many 6 month olds are truly mobile), has no options except to rely on others. So the cries are real, they really are bored, or hungry, or tired, or whatever.

I couldn't have said it any better. This is exactly the point.


Posters here have said nasty things about the type of child I am raising and the type of mother I am. It doesn't bother me in the least, and I'm certainly not offended by the opinions of strangers. I find it very interesting that the CIO posters are on such a rampage to prove their point that they have to be so hypocritical as to tell me I'm judgmental and rude, then turn around and be exactly that way to other posters who present a non-CIO option.

 

[dawnmommy]

the odd thing that I don't understand here, is why do some of the CIO supporters assume that CIO is the only reason their kids slept through the night, and that somehow non-CIO parents are "over-indulging" their kids?

We chose not to CIO. Our oldest had some health issues, including aspirating when he vomited, so obviously he couldn't be left alone to cry hysterically. That forced us to put more thought and effort into it and be more creative about his "sleep training".

So it took about 2 months to sleep train him, but we're in this for the long haul, so what was 60 days effort in the scope of a lifetime? Granted, no one would buy a sleep book from me, since everyone seems to want instant results, but it was worth it for us.

We didn't CIO with either child, trained them gently (moving further away from crib each day - took 2 months with ds but only 6 days with dd - they are different personalities). Both are absolutely perfect rock-star sleepers, have been now for years, and aren't over-indulged in others ways either.

again, I just don't get it when CIO parents seem to imply that if you don't CIO, then your child won't ever sleep through the night. that isn't our experience in the least.

I don't care what other people do, but I don't know why someone wouldn't try a non-CIO method first. heck, why not?

 

[amylynne01]

Let me just say first that I do not practice CIO on my baby and never needed it for my toddler. However, I can see it as one tool in a bag of tricks to get a kid to sleep.

By responding to my DD2's cries (not fusses or moans or groans), I am teaching her that she can depend on me, that I am there for her. If she is crying because she can't get to sleep, I help her learn different ways to relax by rubbing her back, singing softly to her, or holding her hand. Then she can practice those skills on her own when I'm not there and she wakes up at night.

If my DD1 is crying at night, I do go to her because there is something wrong. She has always been a good sleeper, so her waking at night upset is very out of the ordinary. Usually it's that she's lost her lovey or she had a bad dream that make her wake up. Or sometimes she just needs a hug and a kiss.

Do I hate getting out of bed? Yup. Would I love to sleep through the night? Absolutely. Do I want my kids to be crying in their beds for whatever reason? Nope. They know that if they need me, I'm there. I am not raising children who are clingy or needy. I am raising children who are trusting, loving, and are a good balance of being independent (for their age) and being dependent on their parents (as they should be at 2.5 and 1).

OP, I'm glad you're getting some sleep. Hope it continues for you!

 

[rparmfamily]

I'm not going to convince those who thing letting your baby cry hyserically to sleep is a good thing, but maybe there is another parent out there thinking about it, so I'll post this for them.

1. Cry it out can cause harmful changes to babies’ brains
Babies cry. They cry to let us know that they need something. And when we don’t respond to those cries, it causes them undue amounts of stress. Science has shown that stress in infancy can result in enduring negative impacts on the brain. Prolonged cries in infants causes increased blood pressure in the brain, elevates stress hormones, obstructs blood from draining out of the brain, and decreases oxygenation to the brain. Excessive crying results in an oversensitive stress system (likened to a faulty burglar alarm in one book) that can lead to a fear of being alone, separation anxiety, panic attacks and addictions. Harvard researchers found that it makes them more susceptible to stress as adults and changes the nervous system so that they are overly sensitive to future trauma. Chronic stress in infancy can also lead to an over-active adrenaline system, which results in the child using increased aggression, impulsivity, and violence. Another study showed that persistent crying episodes in infancy led to a 10 times greater chance of the child having ADHD, resulting in poor school performance and antisocial behaviour. However, if you consistently soothe your child’s distress and take any anguished crying seriously, highly effective stress response systems are established in the brain that allow your child to cope with stress later in life.

2. Cry it out can result in decreased intellectual, emotional and social development
At an American Academy of Pediatrics meeting, infant developmental specialist Dr. Michael Lewis presented research findings demonstrating that “the single most important influence of a child’s intellectual development is the responsiveness of the mother to the cues of her baby.” More specifically, other studies have found that babies whose cries are ignored do not develop healthy intellectual and social skills, that they have an average IQ 9 points lower at age 5, they show poor fine motor development, show more difficulty controlling their emotions, and take longer to become independent as children (stay clingy for longer).

3. Cry it out can result in a detached baby
Researchers have shown that although leaving a baby to cry it out does often lead to the cries eventually stopping, the cries do not stop because the child is content or the problem has been alleviated. Rather, they stop because the baby has given up hope that a caregiver will respond and provide comfort. This results in a detached baby. Detached children are less responsive, appear to be depressed or “not there” and often lack empathy.

4. Cry it out is harmful to the parent-child relationship
A child that is left to cry it out is less likely to turn to the parents in times of need. Being attended to as a baby is the most basic of needs and if a child learns at that point that she can count on her parents to respond to her needs, then she will also turn to them later in life when she needs their support. But I worry that if I leave my children to cry it out, then they will not see the point in reaching out to us if they have problems later in life and could try to deal with serious issues like bullying, drug addictions, teenage pregnancy, gambling problems, or flunking out of school on their own or turn to peers. Unfortunately, those problems are often too big for a teenager to be left to deal with alone or with peers and it can have disastrous results ranging from making poor decisions all the way to committing suicide out of a feeling of hopelessness.

5. Cry it out can make children insecure
Children whose caregivers are not consistently responsive and sensitive, often become insecure. Long-term studies have shown that secure individuals are more likely to be outgoing, popular, well-adjusted, compassionate, and altruistic. As adults, secure individuals are likely to be comfortable depending on others, can develop close attachments, and trust their partners. Insecure individuals, on the other hand, tend to be unsettled in their relationships, displaying anxiety (manifesting as possessiveness, jealousy, and clinginess) or avoidance (manifesting as mistrust and a reluctance to depend on others). Parents that use the cry it out method often do so because they are afraid that their children are becoming too dependent. However, an abundance of research shows that regular physical contact, reassurance, and prompt responses to distress in infancy and childhood results in secure and confident adults who are better able to form functional relationships.

6. Cry it out often doesn’t work at all
Some babies will not give in. They are resilient or stubborn enough that they refuse to believe that their parents could be so cruel as to leave them to cry to sleep. So instead of whimpering a bit and then drifting off to sleep as some supposed sleep experts would have you believe happens, they end up sobbing and sobbing and sobbing for hours on end. Some end up vomiting. Many end up shaking so hard and become so distraught that once their parents realize that CIO is not going to work, the baby is shaking uncontrollably and hiccuping, too distressed to sleep and too distraught to be calmed down even by a loving parent.

7. Even if cry it out does “work”, parents often have to do it over and over again
I can’t imagine putting my child through one or several nights of inconsolable crying to get her to go to sleep and I certainly can’t imagine having to do it over and over again. However, that is the reality for many parents. I hear people tell me that they always let their child cry for thirty minutes to go to sleep. Or that they have to start the CIO sleep training process all over again after each round of teething, each growth spurt, each developmental milestone.

8. Cry it out is disrespectful of my child’s needs
So-called sleep trainers will tell you that after a certain age, babies do not have any more needs at night. Some claim this is after a few short weeks, others after a few months, others after a year. Regardless of the age that is assigned to that message, to me it seems wrong. I’m an adult and yet there are days when I need someone else to comfort me. If I’ve had a really stressful week at work, if I’ve had a fight with someone that is important to me, if I’ve lost a loved one, then I need to be comforted. But how would I feel and what would it do to our relationship if my husband closed the door and walked out of the room and let me “cry it out” myself? I’m an adult and yet there are nights when I am so parched that I need a glass of water or I am so hungry that I need a snack. I’m not going to die if those needs are not met, but I am going to physically uncomfortable and unable to sleep soundly. If I were to let my child CIO, it would be like saying that his needs are not important and that to me is disrespectful. To quote Dr. William Sears on the sleep trainers, “Parents let me caution you. Difficult problems in child rearing do not have easy answers. Children are too valuable and their needs too important to be made victims of cheap, shallow advice“.

9. Deep sleep from cry it out is often a result of trauma
Babies who are left to cry it out do sometimes fall into a deep sleep after they finally drop off. And their parents and sleep trainers will hail this as a success of the CIO method. However, babies and young children often sleep deeply after experiencing trauma. Therefore, the deep sleep that follows CIO shouldn’t be seen as proof that it works. Rather, it should be seen as a disturbing shortcoming.

10. Our World Needs More Love
Rates of depression are skyrocketing. Violent and senseless crimes are on the rise. As human beings, we need to spend more time being there for each other, showing compassion, nurturing our children. Learning that you can’t count on your parents to be there when you need them is a tough lesson to learn that early in life and can be a root of many of the social problems we are facing today. I want to give my kids every chance possible of escaping depression and staying away from violence. And I’m convinced that nurturing them and responding to their needs at night, as I do during the day, is the first step in the right direction.



Sources:

The following sources were used in the development of this post:


Dr. Sears – Science Says: Excessive Crying Could be Harmful to Babies
Margaret Chuong-Kim – Cry It Out: The Potential Dangers of Leaving Your Baby to Cry
Paul M. Fleiss, M.D., M.P.H, F.A.A.P – Mistaken Approaches to Night Waking
Australian Association for Infant Mental Health – Position Paper 1: Controlled Crying
Alvin Powell – Children Need Touching and Attention, Harvard Researchers Say
Pinky McKay – The Con of Controlled Crying
Linda Folden Palmer – Stress in Infancy
Gayle E. McKinnon – CIO? No! The case for not using “cry-it-out” with your children
Macall Gordon – Is “crying it out” appropriate for infants? A review of the literature on the use of extinction in the first year
Elizabeth Pantley – The No Cry Sleep Solution (book)
Katie Allison Granju – Attachment Parenting (book)
Dr. William Sears – Nighttime Parenting (book)
Margot Sunderland – The Science of Parenting (book)