New bib pick up procedures for rundisney races

[mking624]

I know the policy is in effect elsewhere, but aside from driving traffic for the expo vendors I don't see it as being necessary*. And lord knows runDisney doesn't seem to be having issues with too little traffic at their expos. Allowing friends and family to pick up packets was a reasonable offer which ehanced customer service; eliminating it seems only to diminish the level of customer service while providing nothing meaningful to runners.

We've always been able to attend the expos, but we are planning to pick up my brother's packet the Friday before EEC when we are there since he was unable to fly down until Saturday due to work. We'll likely have to do race day pickup now for Marathon Weekend in January since our own work schedules will limit the time we have to Saturday and Sunday. Sure, we'll get our bibs, but it will be less convenient than receiving it from a friend or family member the night before if we have to get up earlier than we already do or have to deal with long lines to receive our bibs while corrals line up for the start.

It will be a non-issue the longer it's in place and people forget about the convenience of having a friend pick up their packet so they didn't have to hustle to do one more thing on race morning; but for the time being, it's disappointing to see runDisney cut back on customer service without any real explanation or indication that it meaningfully benefits their participants.

*RnR cites security as the reason for their packet pickup policy, but I can't see and they couldn't explain how it in any way enhances security

It being inconvenient for a small percentage of people does not equate to them cutting back on customer service. Just because they are now implementing a policy that requires participants to pick up their own packets doesn't mean this is now poor customer service. It just means that it is inconvenient for a small percentage of people. But, with ANY policy, whether Disney or any other business/organization, there will always be someone complaining about it. Policies aren't necessarily there to benefit the consumers. They are there to protect the company.

 

[Castle2Castle]

Because when Runner B buys a bib from Runner A, and Runner B commits some sort of crime on the course, and Disney GAVE the bib to Runner B, they are liable. Under the new policy, Runner A is liable.

I'm not a lawyer, but I would think runDisney has had one or two to evaluate their liability long before now. They've had plenty of fine print on their waivers regarding non-transferability; I don't think they'd have been any more liable for a crime or accident on those grounds than now. If Runner B were to commit a crime they'd be held responsible for their actions. To the extent that somebody would try to hold Disney responsible for a pay day, they're more likely to make an argument around security measures on course than how a bib was obtained. Where personal injury is concerned -- which is likely the stronger liability concern -- the unregistered runner has violated race policies regardless of whether they picked up the bib from runDisney or from a middleman.

 

[roomthreeseventeen]

I'm not a lawyer, but I would think runDisney has had one or two to evaluate their liability long before now. They've had plenty of fine print on their waivers regarding non-transferability; I don't think they'd have been any more liable for a crime or accident on those grounds than now. If Runner B were to commit a crime they'd be held responsible for their actions. To the extent that somebody would try to hold Disney responsible for a pay day, they're more likely to make an argument around security measures on course than how a bib was obtained. Where personal injury is concerned -- which is likely the stronger liability concern -- the unregistered runner has violated race policies regardless of whether they picked up the bib from runDisney or from a middleman.

Those waivers don't mean anything enforceable, in real life. If someone is going to sue you, they're going to sue you.

 

[Castle2Castle]

It being inconvenient for a small percentage of people does not equate to them cutting back on customer service. Just because they are now implementing a policy that requires participants to pick up their own packets doesn't mean this is now poor customer service. . .Policies aren't necessarily there to benefit the consumers. They are there to protect the company.

I'm not saying that this policy necessarily means runDisney provides "poor customer service", but they previously provided a service to their customers that they are no longer providing. If you reduce the quanity or quality of service you offer to your customers, that is cutting back on customer service.

RunDisney is free to implement whatever policies they like, and I know that policies exist for a variety of reasons. I just don't see that this does much, if anything, to protect the company while reducing the level of service previously offered.

 

[Castle2Castle]

Those waivers don't mean anything enforceable, in real life. If someone is going to sue you, they're going to sue you.

Aaaand the same still holds true under the new policy. As I said, if a runner starts committing crimes all along the course and a victim of the crime intends to sue Disney, it's going to be of little consequence how they obtained the bib. A person doesn't even have to be a participant to access the course and start committing crimes.

 

[roomthreeseventeen]

Aaaand the same still holds true under the new policy. As I said, if a runner starts committing crimes all along the course and a victim of the crime intends to sue Disney, it's going to be of little consequence how they obtained the bib. A person doesn't even have to be a participant to access the course and start committing crimes.

True, but whose to say that runDisney doesn't do background checks on registrants? They could be at least trying to do some research into who is racing with them.

 

[mking624]

I'm not saying that this policy necessarily means runDisney provides "poor customer service", but they previously provided a service to their customers that they are no longer providing. If you reduce the quanity or quality of service you offer to your customers, that is cutting back on customer service.

RunDisney is free to implement whatever policies they like, and I know that policies exist for a variety of reasons. I just don't see that this does much, if anything, to protect the company while reducing the level of service previously offered.

That is your perception of the customer service you think runDisney should be providing. You think that just because they used to have policy A, then changing to policy B means they are cutting back on customer service. Well, no it doesn't. Take, for example, a store that changes its return policy from 90 days to 30 days. Reducing the quantity of days. But it doesn't change their customer service. Since most people actually do return things within 30 days of a purchase, it would only impact those who wait until the last minute to get things done. Having worked retail for over 10 years, I have found there is rarely an "in between" with this. And really, it gets frustrating to hear a customer immediately jump to the customer service line just because they don't care for a particular policy. If not many people have someone else picking up their packet, then it would be erroneous to say it cuts back on customer service...because the vast majority of people are unaffected and still receive the same provision of service. For those who bought someone else's bib...well they have no right to complain about customer service at all being they got into the race by breaking the rules.

Bottom line, inconvenience does not equate to cutting back on customer service. I don't see any justification in saying Disney is cutting back on customer service just because they are now requiring runners to pick up their own packets for the race they registered for. In my view, your race, your responsibility. I am not going to blame Disney's customer service if I can't do something for an event I registered for.

 

[Castle2Castle]

True, but whose to say that runDisney doesn't do background checks on registrants? They could be at least trying to do some research into who is racing with them.

Do you really think they're paying the money to run background checks on tens of thousands of registrants? That seems pretty far fetched.

That is your perception of the customer service you think runDisney should be providing. You think that just because they used to have policy A, then changing to policy B means they are cutting back on customer service. Well, no it doesn't. . . If not many people have someone else picking up their packet, then it would be erroneous to say it cuts back on customer service...because the vast majority of people are unaffected and still receive the same provision of service.

. . .In my view, your race, your responsibility. I am not going to blame Disney's customer service if I can't do something for an event I registered for.

I'm not saying what RunDisney should be or should not be providing; nor am I saying that runners shouldn't be responsible for their races. I'm only commenting on the fact that they are reducing their service level. Whether the majority of runners or a minority of runners utilized having someone else retrieve their packet, you have a group who gains nothing (unaffected) and a group who loses a service. That's a net reduction of service (same with the return policy example).

Companies distinguish themselves all the time by providing services which differ from their competitors, whether it be 90 day return policies versus 30, free shipping, etc. Service levels may differ elsewhere, but all else being equal, a company either enhances or reduces their level of service when they add to or subtract from their services. Again, this isn't to say that RunDisney can't still provide great service overall; only that they have reduced their service offering.

 

[kmchisholm]

I'm doing a small 4 miler in VA and for the first time registration states you can't switch bibs as its a liability to Sportsbackers (company that runs it). Apparently it's not just a Disney, but new push across races everywhere.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I have no issue with a bib transfer system as long as it is something that RunDisney controls. Meaning that no bibs should be "scalped" or available for transfer on the open market. RD could probably make some money off this.

Original person wants to transfer bib.
Person who is getting that bib pays the normal race fee.
Original person gets docked a $50 transfer fee and the rest of their money refunded.

I think something like this combined with only the person on the bib being able to pickup would work. Only people serious about transferring would do so, and only people who were quite sure they were really going to run the race would register in the first place.

But then the scalpers would just absorb the price of the bib transfer into the cost of what they're selling. If the cost of the race is $200 and the cost to send it to somebody else is $50, that means they won't sell it for less than $250 and when people ask why the price is so high, they can say that it costs $250 to break even on the sale.

Remember, on the RunDisney Facebook, Glass Slipper Challenge bibs were going for upwards of $700. When you're making a $300+ profit, the $50 transfer fee means nothing.

Insurance would be a good reason at least in that they wouldn't have had much choice in the matter. But if Triathlon has had that procedure in place for years, it seems odd that a division of Disney with fairly large races wouldn't have already had that come up before now.

Disney has been in the process of switching over a lot of their RunDisney stuff as of late... The on-course timers, the procedure for submitting times, etc etc... In what many thing is a move at mainstream legitimization of their events among the marathon/running/race community. So I think it's just the natural evolution of the events as they grow more popular, push to be more mainstream and not touristy niche event among neophytes, or it could be because they switched providers for their event insurance, or it could be any other of a number of things. Since it's increasingly part of best practice to eliminate these kinds of pickups in similar high-profile races, they could just be following along with the best practice. Heck, with events that are as large scale as this, there is law enforcement feedback they have to consider. For all we know, this could be part of it. It does create a gigantic security hole that could be exploited.

Person X wants to target Run Disney event because of the impact it would have, so he buys a bib from Person A. He causes discontent, but when people investigate, they find that information belonging to Person A, not Person X. All Person X needs to do is work alone, use a prepaid card to buy it, and suddenly figuring out who Person X is takes that much longer. Insider access, virtual anonymity. Investigative nightmare. Not to mention huge liability as Persons J, K, L, M, N, O, and P are seriously injured by Person X at Disney event, the implied level of safety and security by Disney is not maintained, and now Disney has huge liability issue.

Even from a personal standpoint... Person X buys Person A's bib, has a heart attack on course, is running alone... Disney doesn't begin to know who to contact. We assume that Person X fills out the contact info on the bib, but let's be honest... How likely is that? I've run a ton of events, I don't think I've ever filled it out. Even the events I've run solo. It never occurs to me. And if Person X gets injured on the course and feels it's Disney's fault through negligence, Disney can't say "well, in your waiver..." because they never saw, much less filled out said waiver. They can claim ignorance, pin liability on Disney, and then we can watch our entry fees go up another $20-50.

I'm sure that this limits the unauthorized selling of bibs, but that's not undesirable for reasons other than financial loss on Disney's part. These races sell out mondo fast, the merch sells out mondo fast, the online merch sells out mondo fast... Any money that they lose by somebody selling their bib is negligible in the grand scheme. I honestly think it's security, liability, or insurance reasons.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

I'm doing a small 4 miler in VA and for the first time registration states you can't switch bibs as its a liability to Sportsbackers (company that runs it). Apparently it's not just a Disney, but new push across races everywhere.

Yep - this security stuff is popping up in races all over the country in many different ways. It is ruining my sport.

 

[mking624]

I'm not saying what RunDisney should be or should not be providing; nor am I saying that runners shouldn't be responsible for their races. I'm only commenting on the fact that they are reducing their service level. Whether the majority of runners or a minority of runners utilized having someone else retrieve their packet, you have a group who gains nothing (unaffected) and a group who loses a service. That's a net reduction of service (same with the return policy example).

Companies distinguish themselves all the time by providing services which differ from their competitors, whether it be 90 day return policies versus 30, free shipping, etc. Service levels may differ elsewhere, but all else being equal, a company either enhances or reduces their level of service when they add to or subtract from their services. Again, this isn't to say that RunDisney can't still provide great service overall; only that they have reduced their service offering.

Reducing what specific services are offered is not the same as cutting back on customer service. They are not mutually inclusive. This goes back to me saying that inconvenience does not equate to cutting back on customer service. This is not going to impact a large percentage of people. Disney telling people to start taking responsibility for their own packets is not Disney cutting back on customer service. It's them not holding everyone's hand anymore.

ETA: Many people, including myself, have often thought that there are those who register for the sole purpose of reselling the bib. If anything, "reducing services offered" will actually provide customer service with an attempt to eliminate those resellers so people who legitimately want to run have a chance to actually register.

 

[Viva Las Disney]

Another guy and I talked about this on the bus going back to our resort from the bib pickup on the Princess Weekend. While it is a nice idea, the expo vendors would not like it. They want sales and won't get them if we don't show up...

I know you are referring to a resort pickup but it made me wonder if the elimination of waivers and having others pick up bibs could be to simply funnel more traffic to the expo. I doubt it since it was packed for the Tinkerbell weekend but I honestly wouldn't be shocked if it all boiled down to the almighty dollar.

 

[FFigawi]

But then the scalpers would just absorb the price of the bib transfer into the cost of what they're selling. If the cost of the race is $200 and the cost to send it to somebody else is $50, that means they won't sell it for less than $250 and when people ask why the price is so high, they can say that it costs $250 to break even on the sale. Remember, on the RunDisney Facebook, Glass Slipper Challenge bibs were going for upwards of $700. When you're making a $300+ profit, the $50 transfer fee means nothing.

If you have an official transfer system like Marine Corps does, there is no scalping. Bibs are sold at face value. Or at least that was true the last time I checked on their web site. Doing it this way removes some of the incentive for scalping & selling on Craigslist because most people will want to buy through the official transfer system.

 

[Danhockey04]

I think this is a good move on their part. It will stop people from registering just to turn around and sell the bib. People were selling DDD bibs right after it sold out for $1000 on the runDisney facebook page.

I feel this is a test and maybe more than what is said. I'm thinking not only will the person that is registered have to pick up the bib, but will be given a wristband to put on like the challenge races. This wristband will have to match the bib in order to enter the runners only area and be checked at a checkpoint. This will not only stop the resale of bibs, but may make these races not sell out as quickly. I can see this option over using a photo ID check point at these races to really deter this.

About the official bib transfer system, it could work. However, who is not to say that the person giving up the bib to another person doesnt make a side deal outside the transfer to gain a profit. Like one person going up to another wanting to run, striking a deal, I will transfer you my bib for $500 given to me, in addition, you will have to pay rD the true registration fee.

Lastly, if Disney really wants to get caught up with the rest of the runs and legitimize their races, then stop giving out participant medals and make them truly finisher medals. I say this because people register knowing that if they don't finish, they still get the medal, so they go in, no training, just for the medal, run 1 mile and go on a bus. Doing this will stop this action and give those that really want to run a chance to enter these races. But thats for a whole different debate.

 

[Nole95]

But then the scalpers would just absorb the price of the bib transfer into the cost of what they're selling. If the cost of the race is $200 and the cost to send it to somebody else is $50, that means they won't sell it for less than $250 and when people ask why the price is so high, they can say that it costs $250 to break even on the sale.

Remember, on the RunDisney Facebook, Glass Slipper Challenge bibs were going for upwards of $700. When you're making a $300+ profit, the $50 transfer fee means nothing.



Disney has been in the process of switching over a lot of their RunDisney stuff as of late... The on-course timers, the procedure for submitting times, etc etc... In what many thing is a move at mainstream legitimization of their events among the marathon/running/race community. So I think it's just the natural evolution of the events as they grow more popular, push to be more mainstream and not touristy niche event among neophytes, or it could be because they switched providers for their event insurance, or it could be any other of a number of things. Since it's increasingly part of best practice to eliminate these kinds of pickups in similar high-profile races, they could just be following along with the best practice. Heck, with events that are as large scale as this, there is law enforcement feedback they have to consider. For all we know, this could be part of it. It does create a gigantic security hole that could be exploited.

Person X wants to target Run Disney event because of the impact it would have, so he buys a bib from Person A. He causes discontent, but when people investigate, they find that information belonging to Person A, not Person X. All Person X needs to do is work alone, use a prepaid card to buy it, and suddenly figuring out who Person X is takes that much longer. Insider access, virtual anonymity. Investigative nightmare. Not to mention huge liability as Persons J, K, L, M, N, O, and P are seriously injured by Person X at Disney event, the implied level of safety and security by Disney is not maintained, and now Disney has huge liability issue.

Even from a personal standpoint... Person X buys Person A's bib, has a heart attack on course, is running alone... Disney doesn't begin to know who to contact. We assume that Person X fills out the contact info on the bib, but let's be honest... How likely is that? I've run a ton of events, I don't think I've ever filled it out. Even the events I've run solo. It never occurs to me. And if Person X gets injured on the course and feels it's Disney's fault through negligence, Disney can't say "well, in your waiver..." because they never saw, much less filled out said waiver. They can claim ignorance, pin liability on Disney, and then we can watch our entry fees go up another $20-50.

I'm sure that this limits the unauthorized selling of bibs, but that's not undesirable for reasons other than financial loss on Disney's part. These races sell out mondo fast, the merch sells out mondo fast, the online merch sells out mondo fast... Any money that they lose by somebody selling their bib is negligible in the grand scheme. I honestly think it's security, liability, or insurance reasons.

Yes a high end scalper could absorb that fee if they were charging that much for a bib. However, prior to this change a scalper could live in Alaska and register for the race. They could then sell their bib, sign a waiver to allow the person they sold it to pick it up and that was that.

Under the new policy the scalper would now need to live somewhere convenient to Orlando because they need to physically be there to pick up their bib and then arrange a time to meet up with the person they are selling it to.

While this policy does not eliminate the secondary market completely, it sure makes it a little more difficult for someone wanting to register solely to make a profit.

I guess we should all be happy that RunDisney or none of these other races requires anyone to show an ID on race day to prove that it matches the name on your bib. That is probably the next evolution of things with some of these big races. Would not surprise me in the least.

 

[Nole95]

I think this is a good move on their part. It will stop people from registering just to turn around and sell the bib. People were selling DDD bibs right after it sold out for $1000 on the runDisney facebook page.

I feel this is a test and maybe more than what is said. I'm thinking not only will the person that is registered have to pick up the bib, but will be given a wristband to put on like the challenge races. This wristband will have to match the bib in order to enter the runners only area and be checked at a checkpoint. This will not only stop the resale of bibs, but may make these races not sell out as quickly. I can see this option over using a photo ID check point at these races to really deter this.

About the official bib transfer system, it could work. However, who is not to say that the person giving up the bib to another person doesnt make a side deal outside the transfer to gain a profit. Like one person going up to another wanting to run, striking a deal, I will transfer you my bib for $500 given to me, in addition, you will have to pay rD the true registration fee.

Lastly, if Disney really wants to get caught up with the rest of the runs and legitimize their races, then stop giving out participant medals and make them truly finisher medals. I say this because people register knowing that if they don't finish, they still get the medal, so they go in, no training, just for the medal, run 1 mile and go on a bus. Doing this will stop this action and give those that really want to run a chance to enter these races. But thats for a whole different debate.

The wristband idea is a very good one that would probably completely eliminate the reselling of bibs. Printing up the number of wristbands they need would probably cost very little.

 

[faneuil]

Lastly, if Disney really wants to get caught up with the rest of the runs and legitimize their races, then stop giving out participant medals and make them truly finisher medals. I say this because people register knowing that if they don't finish, they still get the medal, so they go in, no training, just for the medal, run 1 mile and go on a bus. Doing this will stop this action and give those that really want to run a chance to enter these races. But thats for a whole different debate.

As a new runner, I totally agree. I want those medals. BAD. But I don't want them under false pretenses. The guilt I would feel for taking a medal when I didn't cross on my own power would be terrible. For me, the medal is such a significant symbol of a major accomplishment. But now I'm just being a sap.

Course, I don't think anyone without a time should be able to get an "I did it!" shirt either, and you can find those in the outlet stores sometimes.

Yep - this security stuff is popping up in races all over the country in many different ways. It is ruining my sport.

I think it's cause the sport has grown so much. Once anything grows, more and more rules are placed to keep it "under control".

 

[John VN]

BRAVO, rD! About time.

Set rules and stick to them. My Ironman registration cost me $1400.00. I received a FINISHER shirt, hat and medal when I crossed the FINISH LINE. If I gave someone my bib and got caught, no more racing.....period. If I had to cancel, $100.00 back. I HAD to be present to pick up my package on Wednesday or Thursday before Saturday's race and had the wrist band put on at that time. Only now after 35 years are they experimenting with a transfer trial period.

Enough pampering and time to grow up.

McFlurry John

p.s.-as far as ruining the sport.......NOT!

p.p.s.-my wife entered me into the KONA lottery twice and said if I get picked on April 15th, WE ARE GOING!!!! Easy for her since she'll have the vacation.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Yep - this security stuff is popping up in races all over the country in many different ways. It is ruining my sport.

I don't think it's the security that is ruining the sport, I think that it's that these events have become targets that require security that is ruining the sport.

If you have an official transfer system like Marine Corps does, there is no scalping. Bibs are sold at face value. Or at least that was true the last time I checked on their web site. Doing it this way removes some of the incentive for scalping & selling on Craigslist because most people will want to buy through the official transfer system.

But that's one race, by one group, that's held one time a year. And as you can see by the website, that one race held that one time is a full time, year round, job. RunDisney is multiple races per year, multiple locations and funnels more racers through per weekend than the Marine Corps one does. This elaborate transfer system used by them isn't the norm among races, just the practice for one. And when you institute a change like that which relies on an elaborate system to maintain it, the cost for everybody's tickets go up.

Honestly, I don't see why there would be a need for a transfer system with the deferment system we have in place. If everybody truly considered and planned out the feasibility of the run before booking it, there's be no need to transfer bibs. And in events where something comes up and somebody is unable to run, they're still able to defer. I speak from personal experience, Disney is really, really flexible when it comes to applying it.

Yes a high end scalper could absorb that fee if they were charging that much for a bib. However, prior to this change a scalper could live in Alaska and register for the race. They could then sell their bib, sign a waiver to allow the person they sold it to pick it up and that was that.

Under the new policy the scalper would now need to live somewhere convenient to Orlando because they need to physically be there to pick up their bib and then arrange a time to meet up with the person they are selling it to.

While this policy does not eliminate the secondary market completely, it sure makes it a little more difficult for someone wanting to register solely to make a profit.

I agree. This won't eliminate it, but it'll help a bit. I was just pointing out that the people who say a fee would eliminate scalping, that's not entirely incorrect as scalpers would build the fee into the cost of the resale.